Eagle92

Thanks for the heads up.

I would find out what the Life Scout's interests are, and let him come up with a project on his own. For example. For example I knew one scout who was really into conservation and the environment, he did a reforestation project that lasted 8 weeks. Another scout had an interest in history, he collected oral histories of our veterans and turned the recordings to the state archives. Another guy had an elderly grandparent who was loosing their sight. So he recorded the bible on audiotapes and turned them in to the retirement home. You get the idea. Any project is an experience, but if time is not a consideration, let him come up with their own ideas as you may be surprised.

Tagguy, Have you ever seen the movie Follow Me Boys. If not you got to watch it to understand the commentary here.

It does sound like your units are doing well. In my opinion stable leadership and training, both adult and youth, create stable units. For Packs you need to have your leaders trained ASAP and encouraged to get the resources out their: How-To Book, Program helps, etc. The committee should focus on specifically on their jobs as MC, and not do double duty. Yep I'm a firm believer in one person, one job. Difficult, yep, but doable. Again my opinion, but the best packs that are stable have lots of trained leaders working together. It is so easy to have one person or family do all the work, and then when the cubs crossover to scouting and the fmily moves up with the new scout. It creates a black hole that units cannot always survive. For Troops and Crews you need both adult and youth trained leaders. Yes it's great when you have an SM who has been around for 20+ years, that was my troop as a youth. But he and the committee believed in the patrol method and having trained leaders. He conducted training, and encouraged promising youth to attend advance training like Brownsea 22 and later JLT. And when he stepped down after 25 years, the new SM didn't have to much of a problem since the youth were running the program.

In reference to finding the single girls, tell me about it. i lost more girlfriends to scouting than I can count. BUT there are still a few girls out there impressed, you just have to be at the right place at the right time

Bob White, I find it quite uncourteous to insult people by wishing that they were not involved in our program, especially a brand new leader who has been active 4 months at the longest, as your post seems to suggest. Specifically this comment Lets hope this generation finds other adults willing to set a better example. And are you saying that those who do not have the financial resources should not be part of the program? Again that is what it appears by your post. If that was the mentality of my leaders when I was a youth, I would NEVER have been able to be a Scout. Not everyone can can afford name brand camping gear like backpacks, canteens, and the like. I was fortunate to haev stuff given to me, and to have a place in my hometown that sold some type of quality products at a very reasonable price. It just happened to be a surplus store. You state that Character is not displayed in the reasons you come up with, it is shown at the time you make the choice to do it right or wrong. My question is this: What if you have never been told something is wrong? In reference to GI surplus equipment, the only documentation showing a prohibition is a memo sent to scout executives only and never published in any document for volunteers? As stated previously In my entire scouting career,as a youth, volunteer, and professional. I have NEVER heard of this prohibition until this post. Further I would say some councils are in violation of this prohibition as I have seen lots of government surplus equipment in the form of cook kits, cots, tents etc. in my 6 years of working camp staff in two councils. Also In one council I was with, the SCOUTREACH units were equipped mostly with GI surplus from the 4th Marine Division. So again my question is how can you know something is wrong if you never were told? I personally think character is shown when you take the time to make a difference in someones life by working with them, giving freely of your time and resources to make them better, and not by insulting them. (This message has been edited by eagle92)

BW, Again where do I advocate wearing cammies with the uniform? I don't. As to why I wear it for work functions like Ordeals and use surplus equipment, very simple: I don't have the money to keep buying equipment and clothes. That stuff has lasted since I was a youth and is all I have. Besides this one board, I have NEVER heard of these policies before, except that one incident at an Ordeal I mentioned. And again the scouter was in cammies himself when he said cammies are a no-no, so how else am I to take it but as a joke. And please remember I was a DE and worked for national supply in addition to being a volunteer, so I think I would have heard of this before now. And you said BSA has made it clear. It hasn't. Again in the 26 years in scouting, this is the FIRST TIME the no cammies rule has ever been discussed with me seriously.(This message has been edited by eagle92) Edited a second time for clarification purposes.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

BW, Again you misunderstand with respect to uniforming. I agree that proper uniforming is very important. But as I stated you got scouts, and leaders for that matter, who are struggling. And I have a bad feeling that with this economy things will get worse. So it may be impossible to get proper uniforming from the get go. Let's face it at $80- $100 for a full uniform is not cheap. Me personally, I am buying my son's uniform piece meal NOW so that he will have a full uniform for next year. Just got his TC necker yesterday So how can you suggest I am supporting improper uniforming? Plus I even offered ways to get people properly uniformed: thrift stores and unit uniform banks. You stated that there is a wide variety of camp gear and price ranges. As I discovered the hard way some of the "cheap stuff" is just that cheap and useless. For the same price of the cheap stuff, I have gotten quality surplus gear. Heck sometimes it's even cheaper than the "cheap stuff." A scout is thrifty Besides if the local council uses GI surplus for their camp and seabase, why not indivuals? That's right two of the councils I've worked for have used GI surplus. And both also had Marines and Navy Corpsmen TDY to summer camp staff in the past. Here is what I am saying, there should be no problem with surplus backpacks, canteens, camelbacks, etc. As for cammie pants, if you are in a wilderness environment, i.e Philmont, AT, etc ,or on an OA work function like an Ordeal or workday, what is wrong wrong with wearing cammies as part of your WORK clothes, not as part of the uniform? Ok I just reread the second link. Apparently the military gear reference is a memo to SEs from 12 years ago and has not been placed in any literature that is accessible to volunteers. Has it been rescinded or forgotten, who knows except the pros. Why do I have a feeling that this is not a high priority with national at this time.

Sctdad, I don't think some of the folks on the board realize the area we are from: rural eastern NC. An area that has been very hard hit economicaly because of the heavy dependence in the past on tobacco and textiles. Extremely agrarian, and extremely poor. Also let's not forget the area that have been hit by hurricanes in 1998. YES we still have folks recovering after 10 years ago.I cannot remember the exact stats out new SE gave us at the OA banquet, but we have apporx. 10% unemployement rate in the council. I do remember that only 49% of our Troops go to ANY summercamp and that the OA has been asked to raise more money for and advertise camperships. He would like for us to double the amount of money we raise to 20 full camperships. Why do I mention this, yes uniforming is important. BUT it is NOT the only thing in Scouting. Program is. Leadership development is. I remember that in my old handbooks, Scouts were to buy their own uniforms. So it was common to see folks with part of the uniform on, gradually building into a full uniform in about a year or so. I know that I bought second hand uniforms from the troop and good will stores. Heck I never had a brand new uniform until I worked for supply and they issued one to me. Folks if you are4 concerned abotu uniforming, if the scouts in question are Cubs, talk to the parents and offer suggestions to help out. For Boy Scouts, talk semiprivately to him and offer suggestions. Finally if you don't have a used uniform bin with your unit, START ONE!

MOM, He is probably the a member of the district advancement committee. Once the eagle project is approved and executed, it is a done deal and the EBOR cannot deny the project. Again it does NOT matter what the district/council representative wants the project to be, it is what the Eagle candidate gets approved and executed that matters. If the Eagle candidate gets denied due to the service project, then follwo the appeals process. it pobably won't get that far IF the Eagle Candidate is well versed in official policy, and mentiosn the policy at the EBOr. Again I had a DAC try to deny me my Eagle over the service project and I had to remind him what the polisy is. I did not have to go throught the appeals process. In reference to teh other life Scouts, someone othetr than the "Eagle Adviser" needs to have a sit down chat with them. as their situation is ridiculous. Since SM is NOT the father to these Life Scouts, he should have a chat with them along with the CC.

BW, I think you misunderstand what I am saying. According to the link provided, it appears that BSA also has a problem with government surplus equipment. As a young scout I couldn't afford the the name brand camping equipment. It was either Kmart, which I used to buy a backpack form and regretted it as the frame broke on the trail, or government surplus which has a reputation of lasting. I knew this because several leaders and scouts also used GI equipment. So I went with the GI issue, using my resources and being thrifty. And i still have that ALICE pack and other equipment today. . Now if you are talking about me ignoring the volunteer at the Ordeal, how would you expect me to react to someone saying cammies are a no-no, when they are wearing cammies? I took it as a joke. To be honest in my 19 years in the OA, I have always seen cammie pants or the older OD pants at Ordeals and workdays. As I stated they are great work pants. Also I think I've seen cammies in either OA Trail Crew or Wilderness Voyage photos posted online. Finally in reference to what we wear at camp. As you stated previously the Oscar De La Renta uniform is not really an outdoor uniform. I see no reason to wear the scout uniform during the work portion of an OA Ordeal. As my old lodge as a youth reminded us in reference to cheerful service at camp" A clean Arrowmen is a lazy Arrowmen." Now once you are finished working and had shower, yep put on the proper uniform and head off to the ceremony. As you said before Wear whats appropriate for the activity and the weather....

The other part of the WOW factor was that you aren't suppose to wear pistol belts, harnesses, etc as well. That would have been a major problem for me since all i culd afford was the military surplus gear I bought and/or given. When I did day hikes, I had a pistol belt with surplus canteen, poncho attached with boot blousers, compass in surplus pouch, and first aid kit/survival kit in an M-14 pouch. When I went backpacking, it was the surplus ALICE pack. i think you get the idea. I was told by one Scouter at an Ordeal that cammies were a no no and that I needed to change. This was a volunteer, not a profession so I ignored him. Funny thing was he was also in cammies! I think we have more important issues than what to wear at camp. Proper uniforming is one thing, but when you are on a trail, or doing manual labor like Ordeals, what's the big deal. In times past, I was usualy covered in mud and sweat anyway,so no one saw ecaxtly what you were wearing.

I've rad the link and WOW. Now I knew that cammies were inappropriate for uniforms. No problem there. Didn't know were weren't supposed to wear them at camp at all. When I was a COPE director doing high course activities, all I wore were cammie pants and staff t-shirt as the {now old) scout pants are not up to snuff for harness and/or webbing. In fact those were recommended wear at NCS. Also I still see alot of cammies at OA ordeals and workdays. Again great clothing to get dirty and stained in as you have to look close to notice the stains, unless it's red paint on your pants:) Now I need to pose this question in reference to sea scout uniforms. I know sea scouts are authorized to wear US navy uniforms with the appropriate Sea Scout modification. But now that the navy is doing away withthe classic dungarees: light blue chambray shirt and jean bell bottoms, for the new blue gray work uniforms found here: http://www.new-navy-uniform.com/picture-nwu.html will they be authorized to wear this new uniform?

Scoutnut is right, districts don't die. They have problems, but htey don't die. If push comes to shove the volunteers can get involved. I am currently in a district that doesn't have a DE, and we are doing very well. Do we have challenges, Yes, but we are active. Further this district has a history of not having stable DEs. Usually they last anywhere from 2 months to two years. I should know I was one that lasted 2 years and now is a volunteer And we tend to have long waits before getting a new DE. Right Now we've been without a DE since April. So the volunteers are use to takingthe bull by the horns and getting the job done. Now part of the challenge of getting a district committee working is getting the right mix of people to get the jobs done. Depending upon the job the person will be doing, they may not need to have prior Scouting experience. You definitely want folks with a strong Scouting background and teaching abilities to conduct training. While SMs can assist and possibly conduct SM specific or IOLS, they might not be able to offer the courses throughout the year as needed. Again you need people who are not vital to units doing these jobs. Finance is one area where it is sometimes good to have people without a prior Scouting background. If they have the "influence and affluence" and a son or daughter involved in the program, they maybe a better choice for finance committee than a 26 year veteran scouter who doesn't have the affluence and/or just moved into the community. Yep I've done the FOS talks as a pro and volunteer , but that other person usually opens the door for me to talk. As I mentioned previously, could you step down? Being on the district committee doesn't mean you can't be involved with the troop some of the time. It means you have to look beyond your troop to ALL packs, troops, crews and ships. It means that you have to look at how Advancement works with Activities to create a program of fun and learning. You have to look at how FOS and Popcorn sales impact such things as the scout camps and service center, camperships, programs etc. I'll tell you I'm on the flip side of you 1963Eagle. I've not held a unit level position since I came back to my old district 4 years ago because #1 i did not want to show favoritism to any of the units #2 I want to point my son to the unit that best suits his needs and not mine, and #3 the district needed someone to make a dedicated commitment to first training, then the OA. I am now in the process of slowly stepping away from district duties so that I can become a unit leader with my son come June 1.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Yep I was a believer in the myth to, especially since my old troop sent scouts home if they didn't show up in uniform. But like T185 said, the uniform is a conversation starter. Also I've broke down on two camp outs and on my way to work at summer camp. Alot of people stopped by and helped me out.

Actually for any position, even multiples, the SE or designee has to approve. Only exception to this is if you are already on the charter and are moving around within the unit, i.e. SM to ASM, DL to ACM, etc. So if you are an ASM with a unit, and you get put into a district committee position, i.e. OA Chap. Adv., then you need to fill out another application. Just a question, so don't take personally, but how strong is your unit in that could one of your ASMs take over as SM and you step down to ASM or a MC? that way you could be eligible for a position. Under the SE's requirements. TRUST ME being on the Dist. Comm. WILL take time away from your unit.

One cycling MBC I know does the honor system for the smaller rides. But the last long one he organizes so that he is along with them. He say that you can really tell who is doing what they are supposed to or not on the final long ride.

CONGRATULATIONS TO YOUR SON!!!!! Now may he bust Butt and get everything over and done with for his Eagle so he can move on to a Venturing Crew and get away from this troop Seriously SM dad may want to have a hat with the CC and COR about what's going on. Maybe have the UC involved as well to see how you cna change the unit. If it can't or won't happen, then I say move on to a unit that works properly or wants someone to help them get on the right path.

Has anyone attended training and if they have can you send them to back sicne they obviously don't understand various aspects of scouting like advancement. MOM, Is it possible to transfer to the other troop you mentioned? It may be worth the drive. I know a minor regret for me was quitting Sea Scouts b/c my ship had problems and I didn't think the other nearest ship, 40-45 minutes away, would be any different. BOY I WISH I WOULD HAVE JOINED THAT SHIP! That ship had active advancement program, did youth led activities, and was not a babysitting service for the yacht club. This was evidenced by the number of Quartermasters coming out of the ship and the Nation Bosun that came form that ship. Fortunately I found the challenge with the OA.

1963Eagle, The SE or his designee has to sign off on the leader applications. So if he doesn't want a SM or CM to be a Dist. Chair., he can do it. To be honest the District's NOMINATING committee actually handles who fills what spot on the DC, with the outgoing DC voting for or against the slate. To be honest I think your SE is right. Further I would not advise a SM, CM or Crew ADV./Ship Skipper to hold ANY major district positions. My reasoning is that these are key, direct leadership roles that have a major impact with units. Since these guys do have such an impact, it's best that they concentrate all their efforts into their units. But that's my opinion.

let me rephrase my last post, the computer won't 'kick out" the cub scout, rather it won't allow the information to be inputted into the system.

LEM said I don't want to be a scoutmaster for the reason that I have indeed found this organization to be way too flawed and strange for me or my boys. And I probably wouldn't make a very good scoutmaster anyways. I am one of those guys that just doesn't get scouting as it is today. As I stated before, you never got really got BOY SCOUTING, only CUB SCOUTING, since you were never a Boy Scout. While the purpose of character development is identical in both programs, the application of methods is different. Trust me there is a world of difference between the two programs, and I've found it's harder for the CS leaders moving into BS leaders to make the transition, than the scouts. Our role as Boy Scout leaders is to mentor, advise, and train the scouts to do their jobs, not tell them what to do as is the case in CS. I am sorry you feel that the program is too flawed for you and your boys and hope you do find an organization to your and their liking.

I was in a very similar situation as a DE except the CC and CM were the 9 yo WEB II parents. A few things happened. First I had to sit down with parents and explain the advancement procedures since we didn't have a DAC at the time. Second when said parents ignored me and tried to join troop A, SM refused. Third when parents tried to join troop B, SM refused. Eventually they got the idea and waited until 10. Now I'm told that the SCOUTNET computer system will catch those errors and kick them out.

I was told today sometime in january.

Sarge, that "heat activated glue" is reallly to keep the patches from unraveling. Trust me it doesn't hold after a few washes, and leaves a stain. I personally sew all my patches on.