Eagle92

GWDScouter, Silver is for district and council level folks, gold is for regional and national folks. Rarely will you see gold loops at a summer camp. The only time you'll see those is possibly for camp inspection and if a national scout shop is running the trading post at summer camp. And last I heard that pilot program didn't work out and only Atlanta's council still has national running a trading post. Then again that's what an old boss told me. At the two BSA camps I worked at, a "class B" uniform of scout/venturing socks, scout/venturing shorts or pants, scout/venturing belt, camp staff t-shirt OR camp staff polo (for the camp that did that), and staff hat. This was worn all the time except as mentioned below. At evening flag and dinner, as well as the closing campfire the full uniform was worn. At one camp custom staff loops were worn, and this later as I described already. I like the fact that they wear silver, if in the venturing uniform, as they are employees of the council in that registration role.

While the document cited does indeed state that the city could end the agreement by giving one year's notice, a copy of the actuall agreement is not provided. As a former history teacher, I've seen students take quotes and examples out of context, suiting it to their purpose. If I didn't knwo some of the history and documents as well as I did, i would have believed their argument. Since the original document is a public record, it should be available for anyone to see.

Liz, The reason why the venturing uniform is worn by alot of the staffers, and OK for new staffers to wear if registed with a troop, is that the summer camp staff are a registered venturing crew, so mopst staffer are dual registered. In fact the council issues each staffer with 1 special council strip and crew number combination patch to be worn in the venturing uniform if the venturer wants to. That patch has the standard CSP insignia design on it, with teh words "Camp Bonner Staff" and the number 1117 directly underneath it. I believe that it's one issued per camp season. Another incentive for the venturign uniform at the current camp is that they are allowed to wear the silver loops since they are council employees. I personally prefer thsi to the old "tradition" of the staff creating their own loop colors. Doesn't set a good uniform example. If you ask me. Also every staff member is issued a special POR patch for wear at camp, usually on the venturing uniform. Ok my $.02. Now another camp uniform question: how many use dominoes to recognize staff? I know my old camp did, and at PDL-1 I met two other folks whose camps did. Any others?

Since I've only had to deal with the ODL uniform, I don't have much experience with having the most up to date uniform. My camps provided 2 staff tshirts,1 staff hat, at least 1 staff patch (when one camp lost a long time staffer, 17 years, they issued a memorial patch in his honor as well). If we wanted additional stuff, we paid out of pocket. One camp did make available a staff polo, which almost all bought. Now since most summer camp staff are also venturing crews, basically for those either in college or unaffiliated with a year round unit like cook crew and nurses but every staffer is a member none the less, You could go for the most current venturing uniform. Also the camps I worked at discounted the uniform pieces for staff since they were employees.

Omnia Gaulia divisa est tres partes. Yep I took three years of Latin, and it helped tremendously not only in English and Spanish, but also with a few of my history courses, helps to read primary documents in the original languauge, and with my current job. Since I work at a hospital, the research I do for the MDs, PharmDs, and RNs use a lot of Latin. you'll be surprise how much Latin is used in the medical field. In reference to whipping rope, I will be doing some of that this weekend with some hemp rope I got. As for not burning wood and LNT, as has been posted previously on another thread, it is an ethic that you can use to various degrees depending upon the situation you are in. Heck the current edition of the Fieldbook makes reference to the advantages and disadvantages of backpacking stoves and campfires. While some situations do require you to not use fires, like when NC was in a drought a few months back, right now we've been encouraged to build and use them, in the proper locations of course.At the local camp in our council, we have been encouraged to use brush to help clear out some of the areas. Excess brush on the ground is a cause of forest fires as some uber-conversationalists are slowly learning. Excess brush will allow a minor fire to spread rapidly, and do more damage than if one did some minor clear of brush periodically. And if you can believe it or not, I've been given free reign to cut down living trees at another camp I worked at, and we used axes and saws to do it, so axes do have a viable use still. had a minor problem with some tree pest that infected some trees at the camp and surrounding properties. State foresters came in and marked trees that need to be cut down, basically leaving a tree every 30' or so. Yes the camp was somewhat denuded, but it was better that than let the pest get to the trees. not a pretty site to see infected trees.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

I actually had to use a hand ax recently to cut firewood. I had a saw too, but for this job the ax was the best choice.

An old fashion idea: uniform inspections by patrol. My old troop had a "Patrol of the Year" award with lots of different requirements. One of them was the uniform inspection we had at every meeting. SPL, or senior Scout present, inspected all Scouts by patrols. If you showed up late, it hurt the entire patrol as you were not inspected. The SPL and Scribe talled up all the points earned, with those Scouts not excused or tardy receiving 0 points, and divided by the total number of members in the patrol. Also for activities we had two strict policies: show up at the arrival point on time, and show up in uniform. If you did not show up in uniform, you were sent home to get missing pieces. Didn't show up on time, then you may be left behind. In the 12 years I was with that troop, we left two times without people who said they were coming. Hard core, maybe, but we informed the parents and the scouts about this policy when they joined and at almost every meetingbefore an outing.

Ok folks I thought I might post a few observations. on why some old timers might slip at times and say Venture Crew instead of Venturing Crew. My memory got jogged a little when I was look at my BSA Library and I found some 1990s books. If you look back, the Venture Crew replaced the the Leadership Corps around 1990. The Venture Crew was the older scout patrol, and they allowed Venture crew to earn the Varsity/Venture letter, and earn the various pins. At first the pins were separated; certain topics applied only to Varsity Team, others only to Venture Crews. This changed in 1995 when all pins could to members of either unit. Don't know how popular this program was in other areas, but it was not popular in my neck of the woods. My summer camp created a high adventure program based upon some of these awards with no luck. At the PDL-1 I attended, we were told about Venturing, and to distinguish the to Venture Patrols were within troops, Venture Crews were a separate entity. It was mentioned that this would cause definate problems. At the NLTC in August 1998 when Venturing was formally unveiled, some presenters, like the ones I attended, still called the units Venture Crews. However, in looking at the literature that was on the cd-rom that was handed out, they were listed as Venturing Crews. just some useless trivia from an old fogey. Now you have the rest of the story.

Well my first impression of Holmes' predecessor was not real encouraging. Met him the first time when he did the presentation on Venturing at PDL-1. Let's just say he ticked off 40+ Eagles when he said that the Silver Award is now Scouting's highest honor, supplanting Eagle. Sorry but Eagle is still the highest, with Quartermaster and Silver being EQUIVELENT to Eagle. on another note, the predecssor was the one calling Venturing Crews "Venture Crews," but more on that tonite in the Venturing thread.

I wonder how much thought actually went into the work, i.e how much time the writer actually had to put this work together? if the lack of info is prevelent, the writer may not have had enough time to do the research. I know when I did work on a 100 year old company, it took me over a year just to get info inventoried. I know doing research can be expensive, but $300 for the book does seem a bit high. I also wanted ti for Christmas, and then I saw the price. I can't ask for that from my family, especially in these tough times. In reference to Varsity Scouts, do the pics show tan shorts and I believe a tan polo? In the early to mid 1990s national came out with an 'activity uniform" consisting of tan shorts, a red polo for Scouts, a maroon polo for Venture Crews (I know what you are thinking, but trust me. I am going to post on this one in the Venturing Section tonite), and the tan polo for varsity. The idea was that this would be a uniform to wear in the field doing activities where the ODL uniform was not practical. (This message has been edited by eagle92)

Gotta ditto what Emb said. Exploring as part of LFL was the result of the Chicago lawsuit in 1997 or 1998, more than likely 1998 as Venturing seemed rather rushed out if you asked me.

Just as with any male leader, you get the good with the bad. On the volunteer side, 90% of the time the women do a great job. And usually the 10% are either A) new BS leaders just coming up from CS and need to be trained on the differences between CS and BS or B) Don't want training and don't care. Luckily I've had only 1 female leader in the B category. As mentioned already in the past, female leaders were viewed with skepticism and had to prove their mettle. Now they are just part of the propgram and the challenges are just as if they were male. Again the biggest challenge I've had with female leaders is the same challenge I've had with some male eladers: they are use to CS and have some challenges making the transition to BS. Good training 99.9% of the time solves this matter. On another note female pros is a different story. it's an even 50/50 in my experience . Those with sometype of Exploring/Venturing experience as a youth, or who have been volunteers and are making Scouting their second career are 99.9999999% GREAT. And they have been known to outperform their male peers. As one female DE joked "recruiting dads to be leaders is no problem for me." The ones who have had no experience with Scouting prior to the job, have been "challenging." They don't truly understand the program, and tend to view Scouting as just another job IMHO. Then I again I've encountered problems with this type of DE before, as well as friends workig in other council's. Let's just say I inherited a few "challenging" units from a female Exploring pro back in the day.

Sometimes leaders get burned out. When you have the same few leaders doing the same thing over and over, or doing multiple activities throughout the year over and over, then burn out happens. There are two keys for this in my opinion: Planning well in advance and having everyone buy into the program. I had a major membership problem as a DE and I tried to fix it by working with my bosses and my volunteers. While I could not get my bosses to accept my goals that I wanted to implement, I was able to motivate my volunteers. We began planning for Round Ups in June, worked with the school board, etc. and was able to get everyone on board. Round ups went very smoothly. We as a district busted butt and, in my opinion, achieved real positive growth. Only problem was that our district numbers were messed up, and we did not have 'positive growth" according to the skewed numbers. One Idea that may help for next year. Before the Round Up season began, we had a Scout Show in the local mall the tax-free weekend NC has. I know it pumped up my two older kids and they can't wait to be Tigers. The packs and troops had different displays and were out recruiting.

The paperwork is what concerns me as I've heard some interesting stories about these surplus programs. As I mention in another thread, at the 2 scout camps I've worked at, we used a lot of surplus gear. Apparently the first one had no problems getting the gear needed since that council also had the CG of the 4th MarDiv on the exec. board. I bet those stars and pale blue ribbon he wore helped us tremendously. The second camp had problems out the ying yang. Yes they got stuff, but they also got a lot of the wrong stuff as well. The most memorable was the camp trying to get a 4wd pick up truck for the back country, and getting a deuce and a half instead.

Apparently the memo sent to Scout Execs only prohibited ANY camouflage stuff, i.e. coats in addition to pants, AS WELL AS military equipment. So stuff like canteens, sleeping bags, etc are not supposed to be used at scout functions. Never heard of this before until this board, and that is after 26 years in the program. There are some who maintain you are an irresponsible leaders for using the surplus equipment, and that there are ways to get affordable equipment from places like Walmart. I stated that there are some out there who cannot even afford the cheap stuff, and that at times it's just that cheap stuff that will break on you in the middle of a trip. My view is that surplus stuff is designed for abuse, lasts a very long time, and sometimes is cheaper than the 'cheap" stuffm so use it. I started this thread to see what the consensus was on suplus equipment to see if i was in the minority. Apparently I'm not.

That is a very good question. Honestly I've never had to deal with that issue. However I've dealt with troop equipment getting broken and a tent getting set on fire. Depending upon the circumstance, those responsible for the damage, either individuals or group, were responsible for the equipment. Now I do know of one unit that will get stuff like packs and sleeping bags, and "sell" the item to the members. That way it gives the member a sense of ownership and responsibility. They then can keep the item when they leave scouting, or sell it back, and get their money back. And if the scout in question can't afford the price of the item, they can do one of the unit fundraisers to get the money. I guess my JROTC experience would best be applicable. We would be issued uniforms for the school year which were turned in at the end of the year, which would be allowed to take home. If we were on the drill team or color guard and issued a rifle, an officer or SNCO and issued a sword, or attending a "field exercise" and were issued field jackets, compass, canteens sleeping bags, etc. We would have to sign out for them and return them once finished. With the field gear, this usually entailed some folks getting to school early and having everything organized so that folks walked in, got their gear, and packed up. Just make sure that whatever you do, everyone knows what is going on in advance and agrees to the terms. Just prior to me becoming a DE, my district received $5000 worth of canoeing equipment: canoes, paddles, jackets, and trailer for the youth of the district. It was supposed to be "district owned." Now we all know that districts don't own anything, it's the council that owns stuff. SO the volunteers that arranged for this donation had the equipment given to one of the local troops with the proviso that any unit in the district could use the stuff, that way council couldn't come in and take the equipment away. Long story short, peopel had problems getting the stuff from the troop holdign the equipment, and when the troop folded, the CO took over the equipment.

Basement, If it's OK I'll post a reply in the spun off thread. I've actually been thinking about this all day, remembering things from different units I've been affiliated with, and also a digression; "district owned" property.

Again this is strictly equipment, not uniforms, except possibly boots. Somehow they came up in the conversation.

Here's the deal, I don't really know. First thing he did was offer his personal field jacket, sleeping bag, pack, etc since he's retiring next month. Then when I mentioned how we started 3 units and I can definately find the gear a home, he mentioned tents, cook gear. etc. So I am assuming a mixture of both. Although I'm not prior military, you would think that being a military historian, I would know what's unit gear and what's personal gear.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Change of subject here. Since I consider the wearing of cammies and the use of surplus equipment, i.e. canteens, backpacks, sleeping bags, etc to be completely separate issues, I did a spin off thread called "WHAT WOULD YOU DO?" in the Camping and High Adventure Section about a possibility to help some SCOUTREACH units get camping equipment. Please read and and post there. Happy Thanksgiving Y'all.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

This is coming from the cammies thread in the uniform section. There is a supposedly a memo stating that surplus equipment si a no-no. As I stated there I never heard about this in the 26 years in scouting, and that includes 5 of which spent as a DE and in national supply.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

My lodge was also having some membership problems. We have 5 major lodge activities: 1 workday at a small council camp, 3 Ordeals at the primary council camp, and our Fall Fellowship. Workdays and Ordeals have been mostly work with little fellowship, while the Fall Fellowship was all fun and no work. Now what my lodge has done is to change the Ordeal schedule so that everyone starts workign a little earlier so that we can end work earlier. Candidate shower and get dress in their uniform and go to the ceremony before dinner. before dinner is new member orientation, then chapter meetings/camp wide game. Then patch auction then movie in one area, and powwow in another. really improved out numbers. Also came out with a special First Year Arrowmen Award. We get a few who accomplish it,and in my expereicne those who get i tusually hang around. Last year the 5 folks who got it from my chapter became achapter officers/ the assoc. adv. This year we had 7 folks get it, 3 are chapter officers, one is the lodge's SCOUTREACH advier, and one works summer camp. check out www.croatan.org .

Ok this is a spin off of a thread on uniforming. My district has started three SCOUTREACH units after 10 years of trying to get any unit started in the area. When I say that the area is dirt poor with high crime and unemployment rates, I am not joking. All these units have is American flags that were donated by either the VFW or our congress critter, can't remember which. SO they have NO patrol and troop gear at all. Individuals also have no camping gear at all. Now today someone at work who knows my involvement with Scouting approached me at work and wanted to know if I knew any Scouts who could use some camping gear: backpack, flashlight, sleeping bag, etc. When I told him about the SCOUTREACH program and the three new troop, he mentioned that he may be able help out, but no promises. Here's the catch: everything is government surplus. His unit has been getting new gear as they prep for deployment, so they are discarding some of the older gear. My question is, should I have this guy go through the paperwork process and approvals to see if we can get the surplus gear donated to these three troop, or should we say "Thanks, but we are not suppose to use GI surplus gear?" Again what would you do?

Yep you can make a Turk's head knot, aka a woggle, with paracord. I've see it done with surplus paracord, and someone makes the stuff in red white and blue. the WB course used that for the students to make their woggles. When I was at the '89 jamboree, I made a buch of woggles with the stuff and clothesline. I was able to swap for alot of patches

Actually it does make a little sense in that it forces UCs to not wear numbers at all. trust me I have seen it done frequently. Not per regulations, but seen done.