Eagle92

Tokala, Would you like a BA22 Syllabus? I have an annotated digital copy of it and have used elements of it for IOLS. You reminded me of the cooking. We also had to go to the QM to pick it up, hike back, cook, and clean. I remember being up til 3AM cleaning pots and pans (don't ask) the first nite. It was a long week. At the time I was not a happy camper, but in retrospect I learned so much. As for skills, probably a reason why the old WB had a 2 year tenure requirement. Nowadays a new CS leader who has only done online training can attend Woodbadge. Not knocking the CS leaders, heck I'm a TCDL (OK the council hasn't updated my records since I turned in the paperwork in June so officially I'm a CSDL still ) and I would love to go.

JD, Gotta remember, the Insignia Guide only covers THE CURRENT (emphasis) uniform policies, not previous ones. So if you got a scout in the ODL shirt, he can wear red. AND as a matter of fact, he can wear red loops and numbers with the new shirts too. From August 2008- April 2009 (ok the info came out in May 2008, but the uniforms were not available until August ) the information published by national DID say that the ODL and Centennial uniforms were interchangeable. So a scout could wear the new socks with the old shorts, new shirt with old pants, old insignia on a new shirt, etc.

I admit I didn't take any WB course. But I did take the old BROWNSEA 22 course, which I have been told was very similar to the old WB course. So I will base my info on that course, as well as the fact that the old WB had a 2 year tenure requirement, waived for those who came straight from the youth ranks. Brownsea actually didn't teach you basic T-2-1 skills. It was expected that you already know those skills since you were First Class. I am guessing WB did the same since you were to complete SM Fundamentals (as SM Specific and IOLS was called when I was a new adult leader) and have 2 years of tenure. Rather Brownsea was an intense, patrol oriented program that gave you a series of challenges that expanded your knowledge of, and expertise in the various T-2-1 skills. Examples include compass course challenges between patrols, creating a nature "exhibit," backpacking, wilderness survival, pioneering, etc. Basically you ate, slept and breathed the patrol method and used the basic T-2-1 skills the entire week. Now did some folks learn new skills, Yes because they were not properly taught them. Were some scouts totally unprepared for BROWNSEA, unfortunately yes. And in going through the course, as well as staffing JLT, in both instances it was the younger scout patrol (they divided the participants in to 3 groups: 13-14, 14-15, 16-17) that had the problems. My patrol was the younger patrol with one 12y.o. ( don't ask how he got in, it was a political decision) who not only was totally unprepared, but was the one who deliberately infected a blister to get out of the backpacking portion of the program, about six 13 y.o. and me at 14. And leadership training was part of BROWNSEA 22. we had classes on different leadership skills, but it was in the venue of patrol and troop operations. HOWEVER leadership principles are universal. If you can apply them to Scouting, you can apply them to any situation in life. I still amaze some folks on some of the things I learned at BROWNSEA as a 14 yo, that they are just learning as adults.

Fred, That's part of the challenge. Usually the unit that gives the best presentation get the bulk of the scouts. One good thing though, if folks are having problems with a unit, they know other units exist and have contact info. We've had scouts leave my pack for another, and vice versa. But as you mentioned, the standard, in fact the way it's taught at PDL-1 if memory serves is 1 pack to one school. But again our school territories are really a mess and you have businf all over the place. At least it isn't Wake County, NC where redistricting occurs almost every year. I've heard stories of kids being in 2 or 3 schools in a 4 year period with a 2+ hour round trip everyday.

707, 92's are part of the district committee since it's a district level POR. So that emb is appropriate. Just like someone only registered as an MBC is a member of the district committee can wear it. You just can't vote FWIW.

But you never see multiple packs actively recruiting the same school. Actually that IS the norm in my district. With the exception of 2 public schools way out in the county and one private school, because of the busing situation the "neighborhood school" is no more. So it is not uincommon to have 2 or 3 packs at one school. Again the exceptions being the 3 schools. It's been like that in my district since before I was a DE. And trust me, it a challenge to organize and do by all parties involved.

JM, One point of clarification. It is "Reach, Throw, Row, Go WITH SUPPORT ( emphasis). None of the current lifeguarding programs that I know about, including BSA's, currently teaches how to make a rescue without support, i.e. rescue tube, buoy, etc.

Fred, In the situation I described, I did try to fix it. I saw one of the units dying, and as a DE you don't want dying units Problem was the attitude of the Scout leaders IMHO. Very negative towards the Cubs and their program. It got so bad between the two groups, that they were not on speaking terms. As far a CORs are concerened, sometimes they are active, but most are not in my experience. But in regards to the units I described above, the COR actually was active, but only on the Boy Scout side of things. The COR really didn't care about Cubs, but did want the troop to grow and expected the Webelos to automatically join them. Forgot to mention the COR was the former SM of the troop.

The comment above is obviously from someone at national who hasn't been in the field either in years or at all. I know many folks who only have the time to assist their units during their breaks. And these breaks may last as little as a week or as long as 2-3 months. And mandatory training in some areas, and coming to others, how do you expect someone to get trained when they are not around except those brief periods?

Must disagree with this part of your statement "the pack should treat their sister troop special ... even if the troop ignores them...." Why would anyone want to join, let alone promote, a group that has no interest whatsoever in them? Why would scouts show interest in joining their CO's troop that does nothing with them, when the down the street troop provides a DC, invited them to a meeting, and takes them to one or two campouts? Why would parents want to their sons join the CO's troop that has shown no interest in them, or worse has been condescending to them, when the neighboring troop has been welcoming to them? Why would Cub leaders promote a troop that doesn't want anything to do with them, have leaders who are condescending to them, and are not supportive of Cub Scout program, when the neighboring troop welcomes them, helps them whenever asked, and are supprotive of the cub scout program? Now I grant you that is NOT how the relationship is suppose to be, but unfortunately I have seen it as such.

Base asks, On this forum we read of Packs complaining that the Troop doesn't support them with Den Chiefs, Camping or XYZ. Why should they if they den is going shopping for troops?????? And I for one think it's a legitmate question. Here's my $.02 worth. 1) Good den chiefs are the absolute best recruiting tool a troop can have. Don't beleive me? Well I initially joined the troop my den chief was a member of over the CO's troop. Anecdoatal I know, but my oldest son worshipped the ground his DC walked on. When he saw a video of his DC making a survival shelter on a campout on youtube, guess who started making one in the backyard. My son has seen me dance, been to powwows, but hasn't really been interested in dancing. That is until he saw his DC in full regalia. And when the DC offered to lend him his old N trad. outfit to dance, you should have seen the eyes light up. DEN CHIEFS ARE EXCELLENT RECRUITING TOOLS! (emphasis) 2) Trooops that develop relationships with their packs will get the Cubs for several reasons. A) While a den may visit several units at meetings, I've found that the unit that invites them to different outdoor activities, i.e. weekend trip, camporee, hike, etc, will get and hold the Cubs' attention. B) The Cubs get to meet, interact, and get comfortable with the Boy Scouts that will soon be their peers and leaders. As mentioend in other threads, we'd buddy them up with an older scout to work with them on the camp out. We used mixed aged patrols b/c the Cubs wanted to be with their troop buddy from the camp out we did with them. C) Parents will also establish relatioships with troop leadership and be comfortable with allowing their child to be with them. This is especially true today. My troop didn't have a feeder pack until about a year before I got Eagle, when we moved to the 3rd CO. We survived without a pack for a variety of reasons, but we made it a point to have Den Chiefs whenever possible, and we invited any and all Webelos dens to visits and camp with us. Those den chiefs kept us alive, and in one instance, led us to the 3rd CO. They had just started a pack and eventually a troop. We provided one or 2 DCs as they requested, and when the Webelos crossed over, they created their own troop, but the leaders wanted to work with us for a year or so to help get them started. It was during this time that trouble with the 2nd CO started, and with the permission of both COs, the new troop folded into ours, and we moved to that CO. And I've seen the opposite occur. I saw a CO that had the best pack in the district have their troop fold b/c the troop didn't want to do anything with the pack. No DCs, no campouts, etc. Eventually the pack leadwers developed a relationship with another troop, and then all their Webelos began crossing over to the other troop. Eventually the troop folded.

I have mixed emotions on this one. On one hand I did the troop shopping as a youth. My CO's troop didn't really do anything with the pack except expect the Webelos to cross over. Out of the three dens of Webelos (approx 26 Cubs), my den of 9 actually joined a troop, and it wasn't the CO's but the one the Den Chief came from. In retrospect, I dont' know how the other two dens actually earned the AOL as they didn't do anything with a scout troop. But even then, that troop didn't meet my needs. And when they announced the new SM, I decided to leave. I eventually joined some cousin's troop and remained there. I also know of troops that have weak programs, and Scouts and parents, especially parents nowadays, want strong active programs. And unless you have folks who see potential in a struggling troop, they will go elsewhere. Even if the struggling troop may actually be better (I know it sounds a contradiction, but I think a struggling troop that uses terh patrol method and is boy led is better than the established troop that's adult led, but I digress). The key factor to consider is what is in the best interest of the scouts.

They still make the rank pins, and the FC pin is the official pin for Scouts to wear on the Campaign hat, aka, "Smokey Bear," and the Expedition Hat, aka brimmed hat" irregardless of the Scotus actual rank. BUT be prepared to fill out an advancement report to get one. I thought national was nuts when they came out with the policy in the 1999-2001 time frame, and stated they should allow the current rank pins on the hats, as well as enlarge them.

In regards to epipens, I think the point may be rather moot if the laws state give tot he level of training b/c epipens are now covered in basic first aid. At least in the AHA classes I can teach. I'll give you another example of what rules. As everyone knows CPR changed from Airways, Breathing, and Compressions (ABCs) to Compressions, Airways, Breathing (CABs). Also they now teach that if you do not have a barrier device, Mask, etc AND IT IS AN ADULT (emphasis as there are misconceptions out there), and you are uncomfortable doing mouth-to-mouth, then do compressions only. BUT IF IT IS AN INFANT OR CHILD YOU MUST DO THE BREATHING STILL (again MAJOR emphasis b/c that is the misconception: children don't need the breaths, when in reality it is most like a respiratory problem). So that is what is taught. HOWEVER, the research that was done in making the CPR procedures shows that for drowning victims, it is actually better to do the old ABC method instead of the new CAB method. Rationale is that the drowned person does not have the oxygen content due to the drowning that a "normal" heart attack victim would have. This was written in the reports, and very, very breifly mentioned in the instructor recert class, but is not part of any training regime. So what do you do if you encounter a drowning victim? Use what is in the research that you read and was briefly told works but is not part of the training , or do what you have been trained and ignore the research and the comment? If you do the old procedure and something happens, wouldn't you be held liable for not following the proper procedures? And if you didn't do what the research says is a better method, but instead followed the proper procedures, wouldn't you still be held liable since you had knowledge of a better way fo doing something?

Someone asked where the one finger salute, flipping the bird, shooting the bird, whatever you want to call it, came from. This is what I was told. The gesture is English in origin and is a polite version of the Two Finger Salute, which is the CS Sign or Peace Sign with the knuckles facing the person you are trying to tell to "go forth and multiply" as one book politely called it. It stems from the Battle of Agincourt where French knights, upon learning that the English were using bowmen for the battle, stated they would cut off the two fingers used in archery of bowmen they capture. As we know, the English longbow was instumental in the French defeat at Agincourt, and to celebrate the victory, and taunt the French, the bowman raised their hands, showed their two fingers and told the French to.... ..."GO FORTH AND MULTIPLY!" Again this is what I was told when I was in the UK and made the mistake of using the two-finger salute in representing a rear site on a rifle. The Girl Guides freaked out, and reported the incident to the camp warden where this discussion came about. Got the Agincourt story confirmed in a British history book, but not the as a polite form. As for why the bird reference, I'm guessing thatbefore firearms, bows would have been used,a nd hence the connection. Now I was also told that Churchill's famous "V" sign was suppose to have the knuckles out instead of palm out, and was to be directed at Herr Hitler, but I cannot confirm that one.

BSA24, Thanks for the info and links. Very helpful. In regards to DL Coach, it was my understanding that the Pack Trainer position is essentially the same thing, and that DL coaches could wear the Pack trainer knots if they needed to. Kinda like the the Silver Fawn recipients wearing the Silver Beaver knots.

One of the challenges I see with these laws i and the question of "level of training" is the fact that first aid procedures do change over time. So if you are in a situation where the current training does not cover the problem, but your 10,15, 20+ year training does cover it, which standard are you held to? Give you a good First Aid example. Back in my day Serious bleeding was "direct pressure, elevation, pressure point, tourniquet." The I was taught " direct pressure, elevations, pressure point, pressure ball, pressure bandage, tourniquet." Not much difference. BUT then they did away with the pressure balls and tourniquets. I can understand why pressure balls, same thing as packing bandages over the wound. But the reason for no more tourniquets was that to many people were using them improperly and making matters worse. So they stopped teaching it. But now, it's direct pressure, add more dressings and pressure, pressure bandage, tourniquet. Now the question I have for the legal Beavah is this: if something was to happen pre-2011 when tourniquets came back in training, if I was to use one and something happened, would I be held liable? I was trained in their use, but the current cert I had at the time of the incident didn't cover it? Or I'll give you a real life scenario that happened to me. Kid is drowning and I respond to it without any rescue equipment as I was not only trained to do when I first became a lifeguard many moons ago, but also trained others to do when I was first a lifeguard instructor. But since the last cert I had and taught did not teach them. If something was to happen, would I be liable? I am no longer a certified lifeguard, so ignoring the drowning person is now an option for me.

Actually the Cub leader awards were neck ribbons, and the knot's colors matched the ribbons. Just like the Scouter's training Award and key, national discontinued them a whiles back,but it sounds like the the Key and Training Award medals will be back, and a DL award will be a pinned on medal and not the neck award. Which reminds me, gotta go on ebay and get my Key, TCDL, and CSDC medallions.

Unlike diapers and politians, I don't think SMs need to be changed often.

You saw my response to rotating SMs in the original thread. I'll quote Gen. McAuliffe once again: NUTS! I was fortunate in that growing up, my SM was an expereinced one. He served 25 years as SM before stepping down. I was forutnate enough to be the last Eagle Scout COH he attended stepping down. Now only did the new SM who I worked with had some big shoes to fill, but also he was an ASM for a year before being approached to be SM, and then almost another year transitioning. Some hiccups did occur, but the transition was smooth, so smooth that the Scouts didn't know about the old SM stepping down until some things happended in his personal life that caused him to step down a few months early. Part of the smoothness is a result of the PLC, and part was that succession planning did occur, and I bet if the family member's death didn't happen, it would have been smoother. Also while not an Eagle, the new SM was a Quartermaster, so he had a scouting background. But the next two transitions did have plenty of hiccups. The troop started going more towards adult led, and just as the SMs were getting comfortable, they left. Don't know how the troop is now since Katrina, but htey did loose over 1/2 their numbers. Right now I am seeing one troop having some challenges b/c of a new SM. Old SM started the troop, and it took him 5 years to get it boy run. Some issues have come up and he needed to step down. So the new SM has less than a year's experience as a Boy Scout leader, and I see the troop slowly turnign into Webelos III because they have a lot of former and current Cub Scout parents involved.

BSA24, Aren't you describing what BSA did for the Book of Eagles Scouts listings?

Or they can remove the TC patch and place the Webelos diamond there as it was before Tigers became part of Cub Scouts int he late 1990s/early 2000s I remember wearing the Bobcat, Wolf, Bear,a nd arrowpoint patched on my tan and green uniform as a Webelos. And that was 28 years ago.

Diannasav, YOUR COUNCIL ADVOCATES ROTATING SMs EVERY 2-3 YEARS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?! (and that is shouting in disbelief) I would respond to your council with Gen. McAuliffe's quote NUTS! Even with a fully trained leader, i.e. SM Specific and IOLS completed, it takes time to develope the necessary KSAs to be an SM. Heck I've been in scouting 30 years now in a variety of positions, including training SMs, and I still don't think I'm ready for an SM position, or as my pack keeps trying to get me to do CM position. 3 years is just getting started IMHO as an SM.

I going back a bit because the epi-pen scenario hits a little close to home. John made the comment It is the Council leadership's (Council Commissioner, District Commissioners, and ADCs) duty to find people who can do just as good of a job who are not unit leaders. I do not include the professional staff in this because I believe they should be working on professional things and leave the volunteer stuff to the volunteers (for the most part-the world is not perfect). One of the responsibilities of the DE that is taught at PDL-1 IS (emphasis)to find volunteers to do different jobs. As they constantly repeated to my class, "You can't do the job by yourself, you need to multiply yourself." Yes the district and council leaders need to find folks, but the pros also work with them, help train them, etc. Trust me, without a DE to provide the info you need and assist you as needed, you can have an awesome program set up, but without the tools to do it, the activity will stink. Also another reason why pros are responsible for selecting leaders is that ultimately the pro will be reaping the benefits of, or taking the blame and being penalized for, the actions of the volunteers. As the old saying I learned at PDL-1 goes Ashes to ashes, Dust to dust, When volunteers don't, The professional must.

Definitely needs to be more challenging. Whoever came up with these requirements is severely underestimating the knowledge, abilities and skills that youth can perform WHEN there is an expectation of high performance. Unfortunately our society as a whole wants to keep people as children into their 20s.