Eagle92

As previously stated yes you can. I personally wouldn't wan tto wear that one as it is a collectible. OK maybe in a plastic badge holder for BnG. I've found that wearing the old temp insig from your youth is a GREAT conversation starter with both youth and adults.

Ok, I may start sounding like Kudu, but I am going to use some excerpts form the 3rd ed SM handbook. You can substitute troop for pack and den as the case may be. "The Scout Uniform is a part of the romance of Scouting. It is a symbol of the ideals and outdoor activities for which the movement stands It has the picturesque touch which helps the Scout to identify himslef with the great traditions of our outdoorsman-the pioneer, the explorer, scout, and cowboy- which underlie the game of Scouting" p.286 "16. The Scout Leader's Uniform makes his leadership more efective by adding to the boys' RESPECT for him as their leader. 17. It establishes the Leader in the eyes of the community as a man of AUTHORITY who has knowledge of matters pertaining to boy welfare. 18. It aid the Leader in developing Troop SPIRIT and MORALE by adding the correct Scouting touch to all functions of the Troop. 19. The uniformed Scout Leader sets the EXAMPLE, which is the first and most important step toward complete uniforming for his Scouts. [emphasis mine] 20. The complete uniforming of his troop provides a feeling of PRIDE IN ACCOMPLISHEMTS, a sense of success attained that unconsciously creates a fertile field for further successes in other lines connected with the running of the troop. 21. It causes the Scout Leader to be UNSELFISH, to work as one of a team to give the benefits of a worldwide movement to the boys in his community."

Speaking of Boy's Life, I wonder what their individual subscription numbers are? That would be interesting to look at since the 'scouts" on paper for some reason decided not to subscribe to Boy's Life. Grant you it wouldn't be 100% accurate since I know some families will only get one copy instead of each individual subscription, but I would still like to see the numbers.

Maybe this is a more accurate reflection of our true membership numbers? I know that a membership verification procedure is now in place to prevent some of the inflation that happened in the past. Don't know when that procedure went into place, but I bet it takes 2-3 years before we solve the problem. As for being 16.5% down from 10 years ago, if my district was the norm, 1/3 of the members existed on paper only! So maybe, just maybe we are still growing, but the figures are competing to themade up ones from back then?

Gunny, No problem. follow this link: According to the online version of the G2SS found here: http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss08.aspx#a Cub Scouting Standards Youth members of Cub Scouting are permitted to participate in the shooting activities named in here only. Archery and BB gun shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or to council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced. Archery and BB gun shooting are not to be done at the pack level. Cub Scouts are not permitted to use any other type of handgun or firearm. As I stated previously, there is a way for a pack to do it, just turn it into a district event

Ok I am also on MyScouting.org and there are the usual rumors about mandaroty training starting in 2010 or 2011. So anyone else heard anything?

Gunny, It's been a while since I was certified, so thing may have changed, but shooting sports can only be done on the district/council level, usually at a preapporved spot. That was national policy. Now I've been recently told one way around that policy by a DE. A pack with a trained RM can do their own activity as a pack IF A) it is on a council property AND B) They open and advertise the activity to ALL packs in the district AND fill out the appropriate district papwerwork. That way it is offically a district activity. One thing my council's sea base has done is create a "CUB ON DEMAND" program where dens and packs can use the council faciltiies, including shooting sports ranges if they can get an RM, for advancement and loops.

Silva Polaris are NICE. While a "starter" compass, one that does every 5 degree, may be good to start off with, they quickly outgrow them. The Polaris is inexpensive, tuff, and has 360 degrees on it.

Yes I agree with the rational approach. While the SM or his designate is the ultimate decider, I hope they get the input from everyone, especially those with more experience. If it is a flagrant safety issue, like the one I encountered, then you need to uninvolve yourself and make it known. If it a questionable situation, i.e. about evenly split, Then some serious thinking does need to go into whetehr it's a go/no go. Some things to consider off the top of my head in a canoeing situation: Ability of the scouts and adults; Maybe you need to mix up the prearranged group to even out abilities? Location, are you near home base are far far away? Are you at the beginning or middle of the float? Weather. Equipment, do you have extras and do you have the rescue equipment needed inc case of a problem. Planning, do you have back up plans in case you start, then realize it's not going to work out. Ok there's more but with 3 kids tearing up the house, it's more later.

Sarge, Technically speaking, you should have a CC and two MC, usually treasurer and a secretary. Ideally the direct contact leaders deal strictly with program, with the CM reporting to the committee. They are not supposed to get a vote. However every unit does things differently. I've seen units that do allow parents to vote. I've seen units run by the book. and I've seen units that ALL leaders are part of the committee with a vote.

When I was working summer camp for national, I was placed in this situation. I was in supply division running the summer camp trading post, and I was a registered ASM with a local troop. I recruited one of my scouts to be a CIT for the camp, specifically to help out in the TP. On a slow week at camp, the CD decided to let the CITs be guinea pigs with a program for the following year which consisted of COPE, Canoeing, and Wildness Survival and Orienteering. Problem was two fold: #1 no COPE director was hired for the camp and #2 my CIT was a non-swimmer. I pulled the CIT from the trip, and got into an argument with the CD. As a still certified COPE director (my last season) and former BSA lifeguard, I tried to explain my rational for pulling him by stating that it violated national policy, opened the council and the CD to liability, and since I was an ASM for the scout as well as still certified as a COPE Director, I also felt that I may be liable if I didn't do anything. Unfortunately it turned into a screaming match. My boss eventually got involved, and stated that it was a local council matter and I should not have interfered. I told her about being the scouts ASM, feeling that I may be held liable if anything happened, as well as being held liable since I was still a certified COPE Director at the time. I was told to drop it, it was a local council matter. I was persona non grata at camp, basically going to the TP, and dining hall and that's it. Luckily I lived 20 minutes away from camp at the time and I went home every nite after that incident. Knowing how I would be treated the rest of the summer by the CD, and at the main shop by my boss, I still would do the same thing. If you are uncomfortable with a situation, follow your gut feeling.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Scouter, In reference to the blanket policy, I am in reference to national policy. As for CO. I am against such blanket policies BUT AS PER THE CHARTER AGREEMENT the CO can make their own policies as long as their in agrement with National polciies. IF they want to make them more stringent in reference to leaders, they can. As for me getting upset, this is a electronic campfire and we are discussing things. Plus this is also part of the other thread this came from. In refernce to maturity, I hate to say it but I've seen adults act worse than kids on some campouts. Gern said it best, judge by their character and their actions, not demographics.

What I get upset about is people doubting the abilities of 18-21 y.o., especially if they have been in the program. They have the KSA already. yes a troop may not be doing things by the book, but that is what training is for. Also let's think about it, if you have a 18, 19, or 20 still involved in scouting, I bet they have also done JLT, NLS, or some other type of training as a youth that will tell them how a troop should properly run. You are right under 21 can only serve in certain responsibilities, That's due to legal issues I'm willing to bet. As for driving and what not, didn't I already say that COs can make stricter requirements if they want. So if they say no under 21 drivers, that's fine. But I hate to think what may happen IF they may be a driver short and the 18 YO ASM is the only one old enough and has a car to drive. I forgot about that one backpacking trip I borrowed mom's car. Not many adults wanted to go backpacking, let alone in the rain. So I had to drive a few guys and gear. one of the things i've been taught is to USE YOUR RESOURCES, and I see GASs as a leadership to be utilized to the fullest. If a CO doesn't want to utilize them to the fullest, or not use them at all, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

If parents are uncomfortable with a GAS driving, they can make their feelings known, just like if they are uncomfortable with having an over 21 Scouter driving. Nothing states a parent can't restict who their child can drive with. But making a blanket policy is wrong. Me personally I always rode with someone as I had an old car that only a poor college student could afford to drive. It was nicknamed the BONDOMOBILE for a reason. Only times I would willing take it out of city limits was for Ordeals. Now once I got my Geo Metro at 21, I was OK with the drives. and YES you can fit a ceremony team, the chapter adviser, and all the regalia in a Metro!

they way my old troop worked it out was the following. When SPL found out that the Venturing Crew was a completely separate thing from a then Venture Crew, now Venture Patrol, and that they were ineligible for Ranger, etc. he got the Venture Crew/patrol, along with adults 18-21, and worked out a way to create a Venturing Crew. They wrote by-laws stating that the purpose of the crew was to help the troop AND give expanded opportunities to the older guys. Talked to the appropriate folks and viola got the crew started. Their meetings were during the troop's patrol corners portion of the meeting, and did everythign with the troop, except they had their own campsite away from the patrols, except SPL. Also they did one activity per quarter on hteir own.

While COs can set whatever leadership standards over and above the BSA's, I think they are shooting themselves in the foot. I was one of those "Gray Area" Scouters (GAS): 18-21 yos who are Adults for BS activities , but youth for OA and now venturing activities. Yes I had challenges getting respect from older leaders from other troops, But never within my troop, nor the otehr leaders i worked with on the district and council level. Some of the most dedicated, experienced, and inspiring leaders have been GASs i've met and worked with. let's face it they have X number of years behind them in the program, so they have the KSA to mentor youth. PLUS if they've worked summer camp, they have additional training, sometimes even NCS, that other older leaders do not have. I also have been active as an adult for the past 17 years and have not had a child in scouting until last night when oldest was invested as a TC (OK so SCOUTNET won't register him until June 1, he's doing the Memorial Day service project with the pack, is registered for CSDC, etc. He's a TC ) I've been able to help units getting started going. I've helped a unit briefly fold restart. So I have lots of experience. Heck I had 3 open invitations to join packs, 2 of which were to be CM, and my oldest hadn't joined yet! But I wouldn't meet the parent requirement for this CO. Again I think they are shooting themselves in the foot. Thinking about it, Lem Siddons, at least the movie character, wouldn't qualify as SM with this CO since Vida couldn't have kids.

in reference tot he YOUTH trying to organize the crew: I LOVE IT!!!!!! That happened with my old troop and the crew was viable. As for MBCs an MBS is a registered member of the District committee. While they can state they will only work with XYZ unit, they are registered via the district committee, not the troop. So to answer your question, ANYONE registered as a MBC can be used, so you don't need to recruit your own, unless there isn't one available via the district committee. Just remember you will need a CO for the crew, and that entails a IH, COR, CC, 2MCs and you and your husband.

Scouter760, It all depends upon your lodge as every lodge operates differently. The lodge I joined as a youth, it was every Arrowman for himself. You stayed with who you wanted to stay with. My current lodge it's by chapter, and I seen everything in between.

732, If you read the fine print on the form the H/W restrictions are not only for HA activities, but for ANY activity where; It is important to note that the height/weight chart must be strictly adhered to if the event will take the unit beyond a radius wherein emergency evacuation is more than 30 minutes by ground transportation, such as backpacking trips, high-adventure activities, and conservation projects in remote areas. and also later on the form Individuals desiring to participate in any high-adventure activity or events in which emergency evacuation would take longer than 30 minutes by ground transportation will not be permitted to do so if they exceed the weight limit as documented at the bottom of this page. Enforcing the height/weight limit is strongly encouraged for all other events, but it is not mandatory. So by these guidelines if you are on a simple overnite camping trip and you do not meet H/W guidelines, you cannot go. Some units out west that have meetings in churches and what not that are more than 30 minutes from a hospital can no longer use leaders that do not meet H/W Guidelines. Also the legalese is an issue in that what constitutes the 30 minutes, from the location of the accident, or the location of the evacuation point? and the Enforcing the height/weight limit is strongly encouraged for all other events, but it is not mandatory. is also a legal can of worms IMHO. This has been a big topic on the health and Safety group on MyScouting. Forgot, guess what falls in the HA activity according to the national guy in the group mentioned above: OA Ordeals!(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Sorry I had to cut it off short, had to leave the job. As I stated the belt loop and pin are viable options for any CS. Heck my TC wannabe did orienteering an GPS ont he pack overniter we were invited to. I'm jealous as I've never used a GPS before and he has! The TC and Wolves who did the geocaching, I mean TREASURE HUNT, had a blast, especially with the booty they found: Cookies and ice cold milk!

As a former "Gray Area" Scouter (GAS), i.e. Adult for BS purposes but a youth for OA and Exploring now Venturing purposes, I know how difficult it is to get the respect of older leaders. Heck even after I turned 21, and was recruited to serve on the district committee as OA Chapter Adviser, I still had problems. So these sentiments tick me off. In my experience some of the most knowledgeable, dedicated, and motivated Scouters are the 18-21 year-olds who remain active despite going to college or what their peers think. Because they spent x number of years in the program, they know how it's supposed to be run, have the knowledge, skills, and experience of working with the youth already. Yes there may be some challenges with the older scouts not respecting the GAS, but the younger scouts will look up to him, try to emulate himn and have all around hero worship for him. Any unit that doesn't want that group of leaders are shooting themselves in the foot. As for 18-21 yo driving driving, from the G2SS The driver must be currently licensed and at least 18 years of age. Youth member exception: When traveling to and from an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity or any Venturing event under the leadership of an adult (at least 21 years of age) tour leader, a youth member at least 16 years of age may be a driver, subject to the following conditions: 1. Six months' driving experience as a licensed driver (time on a learner's permit or equivalent is not to be counted) 2. No record of accidents or moving violations 3. Parental permission granted to the leader, driver, and riders So if national doesn't have a problem with a 16 y.o. driving, why would anyone have problems with a 19 y.o driving?

ioff the top of my head: Map and Compass belt loop and Pin.

OK don't know if it was duct tape or what, btu this is cool! http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090519/od_afp/sciencejapanspaceissoffbeat "Can't fix it, duct it, can't duct it, chuck it!"

I concur with eagle90, better to error on the side of safety. If folks who know the area better than you don't recommend doing something, follow their advice!

I grew up in the era when cell phones were not common and had no problems with camping. Yes we had one or two cell phones with leaders, usually if the doc came, btu otherwise no problems. I personally don't see the need for YOUTH to carry them. Especially the newer ones that have games, music, and internet access. Now this past weekend we did have a few adults with them on the entire time. grant you they were FD and PD folks who do get callouts. The neat thing is that they do have internet access and were able to keep up with the weather reports. THAT should be an adult problem INHO as the youth should be running program. If you are uncomfortable with the troop policy, talk to the SM about a compromise, but be prepared to either accept the troop's policy or look for a new troop. The compromise I have is one I picked up from the UK's Duke of Edinburough (sp) [DofE] Award. For that award, the youth must do a trek without ANY adult supervision for aspecified period of time based upon the award level. For safety reasons a cell phone is packed in a waterproof bag That is sealed with tape and initialed by a leader at the start if memory serves. Unless there is an emergency, if the seal is broken, you do not complete trek and start all over. Again I personally don't see the need for the cellphone, but this may be a compromise solution.