Eagle92

I have to agree with John, give them something different. The woodbadge beads have ameaning and history behind them, I don't think it should be diluted. Also what about the YOUTH who are going through the course, shouldn't they receive something special besides a temp patch? What about the YOUTH staff shouldn't they also get something special for staffing? What about other adult staff, some who may have gone through the course as a youth, others who haven't gone through WB yet, shouldn't they also be recognized? As I said before, if you are goign to recognize one group, you should recognize all groups. the arguement for the beads is that the courses are nearly identical. So if that's the case shouldn't the youth get beads? Shouldn't the all staff get beads sicne they are doing what the WB staff are doing? John, They have a NYLT buckle?

I hate to say it, but if the district is stabbing him in the back AND he is a newlywed, he may not remain long in the profession. I was being stabbed in the back by the council higher ups, and my intention was to remain in the council long enuff to transfer the heck out of there. My bride of 2 months eventually enuf, it's me or the job. I am happy to say we just celebrated our 10 year anniversary this month.

I personally don't care what the flaps look like. As long as there is a flap. Yes I got Vigil flaps on a few of my uniforms, but I also have old trader flaps on a few as well b/c i didn't have enough hours at the time to get the proper uniform flaps. As for the flaps I get now, I usually give them to new members coming into the lodge form other lodges, that way they can wear the Croatan flap on at least one uniform. My rationale is that it is easy to ID OA members with a flap when they are not wearing a sash, or just the universal dangle. I.E. we had a Webeloree that the OA was staffing. We had a chapter fellowship the first night, and the OA members working the Webeloree had free drinks from the TP the entire weekend. One of the new members, just got in the week before the Webeloree, didn't know about this, and some of the OA members didn't recognize him as a new member b/c he didn't have a flap on his uniform. He did have an Order of the Arrow membership emblem on, but from a distance it is hard to see. I didn't even know he was at the Webeloree until I saw him at his station while helping to prep the campfire circle. Luckily we got matters straight. Yep the OA is not about sashes, flaps, dangles, ad nauseum. But the flaps are a nice way to ID members. And the sash does go all the way back to the founding of the OA. Service is the key to the OA. And to be honest I am slowly backing away from OA duties in order to focus on being a TCDL as well as being on the CS program committee, and I feel very guilty about it. I know an Arrowman's primary duty is to his/her unit, but being at camp and taking care if it is an awesome responsibility that I feel guilty for shirking.

Gern, In referecne to being quizzed by customs, When I did ECSP back in '95 there was an incident where a drug dealer was wearing a scout uniform in order to pass through immigration more quickly with his drugs. He was successful for a while, but got caught about a month before I went to the UK. i was held up a spell and quizzed. Once the camp warden, that's what they call rangers in the UK, found out what happened, he advised all international staff coming to camp to not wear their uniform on the flights to the UK.

John, Not trying to whine, but you did ask for reasons for the flaps. I gave you the two that my current lodge posted in their newsletter 30+ years ago and is listed on their website. My lodge still has the restricted necker, 1 per lifetime, that is checked against a book of members who have purchased one. And believe it or not it took me 7 years to get one as when I was a member the first go around,they were out of them and there was talk of discontinuing the neckers b/c the current SE didn't like them. We still have restrictions on the flap, albeit 1 flap for every 7 hours of service. Now that policy is about to change to 1 flap per lodge workday and/or Ordeal. I agree the different flaps are getting ridiculous. but two factors are fueling it. #1 collectors and #2 now this policy. The youth, and again I stress the youth, do not like this policy, and some are proposing flaps for everything, which we already have NOAC and Conclave flaps.

Your gonna love the Sea Scouting calls the equivalent of a patrol: a crew!

From the Croatan Website found here: http://www.croatan.org/history/1970_1979.htm ... At the ECM motions were passed for two more flaps with borders designated to distinguish Brotherhood (gold) and Vigil members (silver). The thought behind adding borders was to stimulate advancement from Ordeal to Brotherhood membership which would help earn the National Standard Lodge status. later on that page is this, again remember this is the 1970s Discussion to Abolish Brotherhood and Vigil Flaps Over the last few years, lodge membership developed keen awareness and deep intellectual thought towards the symbolism found in OA ceremonies. Discussions matured into discussion about every aspect, which included the current lodge practice of colored border flaps to distinguish Ordeal, Brotherhood, and Vigil members. Frankford Johnson submitted a detailed article in the April Croa-Talk regarding the recent proposed amendment to abolish the brotherhood and vigil designated flaps. "Our brotherhood is the result of our common bond in cheerfulness and service. It is for this we are recognized, not rewarded. Our founder, E. Urner Goodman said: "The Order of the Arrow is a 'thing of the spirit' rather that of mechanics. Organization, operational procedure, and paraphernalia are necessary in any large and growing movement, but they are not what count in the end. The things of the spirit count." Symbolism in our Order is important because we are often talking about intangible things. It's purpose is to represent those intangibles so that we can relate them. The flap is an outward sign and reminder that we recognize in ourselves our obligation to those high ideals in Scouting whether it be as Ordeal, Brotherhood, or as Vigil members. The flap is not a duplicate of the sash, but a reminder, a symbolic of our dedication of purpose. Nowhere in the OA Handbook nor has "National" said in print that Vigil membership "does not provide a special degree of rank, status, or special honor." The individual is the one who decides if he is or is not living up to the standards he sets up for himself. The lodge merely recognizes his public dedication of purpose and bestows upon him the symbolic membership flap. These flaps are no more of a status symbol than are the sashes. They certainly can be miscontrued in this manner but at their initial inception this was not their purpose. The fact is that National uses the word "sash" with its three levels of membership equivalently with the term "flap" of the lodge. Nowhere in the literature that is being cited in favor of dropping the Brotherhood and Vigil flaps does it expressly forbid or discourage such recognition. In fact, such a need is nationally recognized. Should we then lightly discard such an honorable and servicable tradition just because someone questions it? Let us not be hasty but rather ponder their purpose. The decision is yours. Choose wisely." Wish someone from national would have read that when they changed the policy.

Not a tent story, but a backpacking one that plastic story reminded me of. At Brownsea 22, we were beginning the backpacking portion, and my buddy decided to go see the medic b/c he had a really bad blister, a blsiter the size of a fist b/c he deliberately infected it so that he could leave early . Anyway while I took the buddy to the medic, my patrol decided to load his portion of the patrol gear into my backpack so that as soon as I came back we could be off. They placed the can PB that was opened, but sealed with the plastic top in my backpack, placed the pack on the ground, and waited. About 2 hours later when I show finally show back up, I put on the pack only to find it's covered with ants. Those suckeres ate through the plastic cover and had a field day.

My old troop has some rules about tents: no food in tents, no metal frame backpacks, and no shoes. You got caught breaking the rules, the PLC made you sleep in one of the heavy canvas Baker tents like summer camp with no netting, and no floor. The tens were old, but still usable. You wouldn't get wet if it rained, but you would have to deal with a muddy floor, insects, and the heat. Alot of us scouts were ticked when the CO used our fiberglass shed as a dart board, causing all of our tents to get mildew damage, including the bakers. Once that happened, we never did get new bakers, but we did implement a tarp only policy.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

If you are interested in a little drive, Camp Bonner, soon to be renamed Camp Boddie, has an excellent summer camp program. adjacent to the camp is the nationally accredited Pamlico Sea Base, that has some outstanding older scout/venturer programs. PSB link is http://www.pamlicoseabase.org/ camp Bonner link is http://www.campbonner.org/

Unfortunately it wasn't promoted, promoted, and promoted some more in my district. Now next year I am hoping attend, it just depends upon when i can get vacation AND if i am not PD for CSDC. Right now it's a go, but I need th edates confirmed and vacation confirmed before committing. No matter what though, this "Program Freak" will be promoting it.

Again their is alot more discussion on that thread, as well as on My Scouting.org on the topic. VERY brief synopsis, in late 70s early 80s national allowed it at COHs and banquets,and included the professional dress uniform. When they edited the current ed. down, they cut out the COH portion, but left the ambivalent wording that was also with the COH statement, and professional dress uniform portions of the statement. This is not in the IG but in the OAHB.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Srisom, As I mentioned, there is a debate on the appropriateness of wearing the OA sash, and that is on another thread. Don't want to rehash the arguments here, so take a look on that thread and join in Maybe we can revive it?. E92

Funny you mentioned photos, one of our staffers is a professional with the local police. he had his uberexpensive camera out taking photos of everything so that he could make a video for his son. WELLL the DE asked for a copy and the OA has agreed to make CDs for all the packs to promote CSDC for next year. Just an update, I'll be making a presentation on 2010 CSDC tomorrow nite at the Discom. I'm encouraging a date be set so I can formally request vacation at work. I'll be presenting the good, the bad, and the ugle at the meeting and proposing some of my ideas to improve the camp. SO PLEASE KEEP THE IDEAS COMING. It's been a very long time since I did CS events, so I'm rusty. But I have a funny feeling I'll be doign this for the next 10 years, so I migyt as well start off on the right foot. THANKS GUYS AND GALS

From the online version of the Insignia Guide found here http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/06E.aspx Eagle Award, silver medal suspended from scroll, No. 00135; sterling silver, No. 00112; Boy Scout. Adults wear only on formal Eagle occasions. Also check this out http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/10F.aspx Note the wearing of awards is allowed in coat and tie.

XLP, Is all your campouts that close to home? I ask because if that's the case then it explains your arguments (argument used in the classical sense of the word, not the current sense). By staying so close to home, you haven't experienced the walking into a MacDonald's with a troop of 20-30 scouts in full uniforms, and the attention and respect you get from most of the patrons their. You haven't been to a state welcome center with a fully uniformed troop and see how well you are treated. I'm now in a similar situation with the pack I am with: small rural town with a local council camp 20 minutes away from the CO, and for some of the families 2-5 minutes from their house. So they wear pack t-shirts instead of uniforms. Hopefully this will change, especially after one family campout where one of the packs that was aslo using the camp was fully uniformed: socks, belts, short or pants, pack t-shirt during the day and ffield uniform shirt with neckers and hatsat their flag ceremony and dinner. That pack looked SHARP!

Beavah gave some great advice. My only additional advice comes from my experience with SCOUTNET. i would contact your local council and request a copy of your advancement records. Although theoretically your records are suppose to move with you, my experience is that they don't. Again call your current council and get a copy of your records before the move. Copies of your troop records are also good too. But the #1 record is your handbook with all the signatures and, if your troop uses them, the signature from your blue cards.

Very interesting and like the others some important details are missing. 1)What type of negligence and was it court found or insurance found? Depending upon what happened the troop may want to remove him as a result 2) Could your son be hiding something? No youth is ever tells their parents 100% of what is going on in their lives. 3)Calico described exactly what to do. Long story short, I was a member of a very rambunctious troop initially. We did all kinds of things, and I admit I did get into some trouble. When the new SM was finally appointed, my old CM who set off my spidey-sense every time I came into contact with him, I decided to leave that troop and join another. Best decision ever as the "new" troop had more peer discipline, was more youth-run, and was a better match for me. My history as a hellion didn't follow to much, my cousins were in the troop so go figure, but overall I was accepted and prospered.

When I was a DE, I know that I had to cancel and postpone a few things, usually meetings but once or twice an entire event, at the last minute, but on a regular basis? Praise in public, mentor in private is good, but maybe amember or two of the Key 3 needs to have a cup of coffee with him? 9times out of 10 once something is on the calender, it's set in stone, even if the planners of the event created the conflict! Oh and the two events I cancelled last minute were weather related

Calico, If memory serves, the Order of the Arrow membership emblem as the insignia guide call it is also considered temporary insignia and cannot be worn with other temp insignia. In reference to the different color borders, many lodges did have rationals for them. I know Croatan has it written into the by laws, and their history pages online gives summaries of the various arguments (in the classical sense of the word) for adopting them. Also as I noted elsewhere, specifically the when to wear the OA sash thread, that at the time most lodges adopted these different color borders, OA sash were restricted to OA events only. Since the 1979 or early 1980s ed. the sash can now be worn more often, ie. at COHs Blue and Golds, and district and council banquets, and the sash can also be worn with the professional dress uniform. Thus the color of the flap informed a person what honor they were when they were not wearing a sash. Since national now allows the sash to be worn more often, the removal of colored borders are a natural, although one that is not keeping with the traditions of many lodges. As for me personally, I will continue to wear the beaded vigil 'dangle" (that's what we called "pocket rockets" in SE Louisiana, that I was gifted.

Someone in the lodge may be getting confused with with national's 2007 policy of not having designated borders on flaps, i.e. red = Ordeal, gold = Brotherhood, silver = Vigil. I and the youth in my lodge HATE this policy and was glad that the former SE allowed us to exhaust our supply of the current flaps with differing borders. Well it lasted 2 years and we are now about to go to one flap for all. The Lodge will be voting to amend the by-laws to not only have one flap for all, with the noted protest that if national ever rescinds this policy the lodge will be going back to the 30+ year old policy, and will remove the restriction of 1 flap for 7 hours of work. Instead you will be given the opportunity to purchase 1 flap at every lodge workday and Ordeal.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

I see no problem with a scout tenting alone. I personally would recommend a tentmate so you can slpit the burden of carrying it with someone else. But if the scout wants to carry the weight by himself, why not. As for being alone, doesn't Wilderness Survival MB say you need to make a shelter and sleep alone in it? Also isn't there somewhere else in scouting that you spend the nite alone?

I personally say pair them up and then split off the separate pairs. They integrate into the troop and still have a buddy they know while makig new friends. I don't like the idea of permanent patrols, i.e. the same folks in the patrol all the time, but allow the scouts to switch patrols. Now I do realize that they rarely switch out of their patrol, but it has happened a few times with my old troop. The only "age specific" I like is the venture patrol, b/c they can do things on their own. Grant you I am use to the old Leadership Corps, and view the VP as a continuation of that, just anew name. In my old troop, you had to be First Class or above, have served in a PL, and be appointed by the SPL to some troop POR. Once you were in that patrol, that was the parol you were permanently in.

OGE, yes someone did state that there is evidence to show uniforms do not improve peromance, but the website that he used to list those articles is a subscription database, and I requested he give the titles so that I can look them up on my databases. No list of articles has come about yet. Also I admit I said I would look into the research that the local school board used to promote school uniforms in the county I live in, as htey also had research supporting the use of school uniforms. Anecdotally, my experience from attending and working in private schools in New Orleans is that uniforms do improve performance. I've been busy with CSDC, a camp staff reunion, and trying to find a new vehicle to look it up. Sorry about that.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Thanks for the input an d please keep it coming. A few ideas I have and I want your input. the comment on the cheerleader struck home as the energy level seemed almost non-existant compared to the CSDC I worked as a youth. Would adding elements of scout summer camp staff be appropriate, ie. staff singing, cutting up at the right times to get a laff, etc. I've worked 6 summer of scout camp to be a program freak, just don't want to go overboard and scare the cubbies.