Eagle92

Boomer, One challenge is what you just said, lots of "mothers and den chiefs in attendance." I strongly feel that they need to be in a patrol, under the asupices of a patrol leader, doign their share of the work and living in the patrol method, which is the heart of scouting. Somwetimes the parent or older brother who is the DC can spoil the expereince. On my Webelos overniter way back when, I remember my "KP partner's dad called him over while we were suppsoed to wash dishes. Seems dad didn't think son didn't need to do anything as he was a "guest" So I got stuck doing the KP by myself. Also on one Webelos overniter the troop did, I remember a bunch of the parents, mostly the moms, who were complaining that we were doign activities in the rain and not only prevented the Webelso from doing stuff, but also interfered with the PLC's wishes of continuing on with the scheduled activities: a daylong hike at a national battlefield. Lots of ticked off scouts frm the interferring CS parents. Further Webelos are still Cub Scouts, with Cub Scout advancement that they are working on.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[sarcasm on]FUNNY[sarcasm off]. I think Eagle has lost some of it's meaning for several reasons. 1)The First Class First Year emphasis as if scouting is a race. 2)Return to some of the more challenging skills. 3)Reintroduce time limits i.e. pre 1991 requirements, for all ranks. 4)Reintroduce some of GBB's methods into both scout and scouter training. Upon reflection, the units that are really succeeding in my district are the ones led either led by old time scouters or who grew up with them as scouts.

If memory serves, UoS is a local training that covers mul;tiple areas, basically a CS Powwow, except for all scouters. While some courses may have a national agenda, i.e. leader specific training, most don't and are viewed as supplemental training.

I have to disagree with you Boomer as well. Webelos do not do as much camping, nor is the focus on mastering skills. Further the Webelos leaders don't have the IOLS training in most cases. Finally it can be intersting keeping track when they go from pack to a troop. However I do like the idea of Webelos camping and workign with patrols in a troop. We need more of that INHO.

Ok I did something stupid a few years back, or nice depending upon how you look at it. I started a new troop that had little resources, so I gave away a bunch of my stuff that I no longer needed, as at the time I was a DE and enjoyed the cushy side of camping in that role My thinking was to give it to folks who could use it. So fast forward to today and the wife says we need to start camping as a family. While some car camping elements are there the wife wants to gradually get the kids use to going light and then backpacking. So what type of stoves do you folks recommend. Also what type of cook gear you recommend. Things to factor in. 1) Affordability, got to be a good buy. 2) Durability, got to last a long time. 3) Weight, I'm gonna start out as the pack mule adn then eventually turn the kids into mules 4)Usability, got to be effecient and effective. Thanks

John, I hear ya. For scouts with disabilities, they can always appeal that through the process, and I have no problem with that. As for expenses, I definatley hear ya. You are talking to the guy who got a cheap backpack from Kmart many years ago, only to have the frame crack on him. BUT you can get good, used packs via surplus stores and Ebay. I used an ALICE pack for a good number of years, and have let my son use it on occasion. I bought it over 20 years ago, and it was highly "expereinced" when I got it. If we made Backpacking required, it may spark a used gear inventory like uniforms with some troops. As scouts outgrow stuff, they can pass it along to those needing it. Then again making it an optional MB in the fitness catagory would be a better fill.

Kudu may kill me for this idea, but I say replace Camping MB as an Eagle required MB and with Backpacking MB with no options. As for the article, I am definatley gonna get the hospital's copy of the mag and read it!(This message has been edited by eagle92)

In the 2 fifty milers I did via canoe I always had the weakest member of the expedition, and in both cases they were not my tentmate. One was a BSA trip to Canada and I tented with a friend from my home troop who was also on the trip. The second time was training for a "hoods in da woods" program, and my canoe partner was female, so it was definately out of the question.

Depending upon your view point, my council's camp also offers alot of the "paperwork" MBs I personally don't think it should be done as I also think the purpose of camp should be to #1 HAVE FUN and #2 do some of your harder advancement, i.e. nature, forestry, environmental science, pioneering, canoeing,etc. BUT you do have scouts and units that want that, and not just Eagle mills. One unit I know of is struggling to survive, and summer camp is their best chance to meet advancement.

I honestly don't know what it means except that your councilis one of the pilots. I did fund out that there is a pilot program in a few councils,a nd that they hope to expand natinwide if successful. What I do know is that those old leaders who did not turn in the paperwork for a background check after being informed by mail by the council that they would be removed from the charter if they did not comply DID get removed! So whether the the unti will not bwe allowed to recharter, or the 'untrained" leader is removed, again I don't know. ALSO I do hope your council's records are up tio date. i've had problems with records not being up to date. Finally, what's goign to happen to those folks in multiple positions, i.e ASM and crew Adviser, who are trained fully trained in one position, including WB, but have not been fully trained in another, i.e. missing IOLS, but has everything else and SA, SSD, the new Aquatics Supervisor (he's getting this one this week), etc?

At the Cub Family campout, they did a RGR and it was great, the bulk of the work can be done in about 30 minutes, although you need to allow time for things to dry. Son had a blast, and we tried to have it done at CSDC, but there was some confusion about the RGR as no one save the DE and myself ever saw one, and I saw it 2 weeks before CSDC! CD got the gutters, they just weren't usable ones.

Welcome aboard Hotair. In reference to scout sin metro areas, I would have to respectfully disagree. I grew up in a metro area, and almost every month we would travel 50+ miles to whatever campsite we were going to. so an hour or two drive was the norm. On occasion, usually when a 3 day weekend ensued, we did a 4+hour drive. Being in the movement for 50 years, you know that at one time patrols were encouraged to go out on their own. I think that changed in the 1970s with "new Scouting" that flopped. Now there is a lot of discussion about patrol activities and no adult leadership, and at the moment patrols can do stuff with their unit leaders. BUT I know that alot of unit leaders will discourage that stuff. Unfortunately there are too many lawyers waiting for a payday. they sad thing is that you have many capable young men who could lead a group on a hike or campout, heck it wasn't to long ago that at 16 you could quit school, get a job, and support yourself or family.

Yep I'ld say he was an augmentative control freak. First met him at PDL-1 in May when he announced that Venturing was splitting out of Exploring in August. Most of us liked the program description, and that they were essentially bringing stuff back. Lot us wished the Venturing program stuff was availabel to us as scouts as most of us grew up in the 1980s/early 90s. However, he did tick off 40+ DEs for saying that Silver was going to replace Eagle. It was an "interesting" conversation. Just out of curiosity, what would ti take to get some of the books revised with a knowledgeable volunteer also doing some of the editing/ After all the first BSHB did have alot of editing done by volunteers prior to being published,

BP, Yep it's over 10 years since Venturing came about. but trust me it's hard to make changes to a book, unless a lawsuit is involved . I sue the BoB example, it came out in 2001, and there is still nothing correcting the Blythe info. Also the person was the national director of venturing, can't remember his name, but is was the guy that Holmes replaced.

Emb reminded me of a conversation I had with Holmes' predecessor on this topic. Not only did he state what Emb said, he also said, and get this, any sea scout who earned Ordinary RETROACTIVELY earned the sea scout bronze award. I then added, "So since I earned Ordinary as a youth, I am entitled to wear the sea scout scout bronze award ribbon?" and he said "Yes." Please remember that when Venturing came out in 1998, it appeared to have been hurried b/c of the Chicago lawsuit if memory serves. The only uniform item out there was the shirts and POR patches. Shorts, socks, belts, and hats came later (1999) and pants came out later still (2000). Also a lot of the literature was rushed, as evidenced by some of errors encountered buy the first editions of stuff. While the Venturing program mayhave been in the works, it wasn't a finished project when it came out in august 1998. And we knwo how sometimes once things get published, the errors may be revealed , but they keep on being printed in later editions. This not only happens with the BSA,but also with other literature, i.e. Stephen Ambrose and Blye from BAND OF BROTHERS comes to mind.

Whne di they change the guarantee to only 30 days? And they better honor all the guarantee at time of purchase! I know I specifically bought a backpack from national for a little more than I could through Campmor BECAUSE of the lifetime guarantee.

Kudu, I can't think of a better word than "Time management" for the detailed timeline type planning i.e. x days out organize PLC, Y days out get instructors, z days out check on PL to see they are a go etc that is needed to organize campout and esp. high adventure activities. I understand where you are comign from and agree to a degree, some folks do take the time management to the Nth degree, and that takes the fun out of scouting. Will basic planning and execution be a better term? As for communication v. charisma, yeah they do go hand in hand, but in the manner I am referring to is the ability to teach someone basic scoutcraft skills. The example that comes to my mind is a friend of mine who had incredible knowledge of scoutcraft, but for whatever reason could not teach the skills in an effecient manner to make sure the younger scouts could do it. Good guy, well liked, and could run a troop. but could not for the life of him teach the younger scouts. As for challenge test options, actually BSA lifeguards can get recertified with a "challenge test." They have to take a written test, and then perform the skills test in the water. By "challenge test" for IOLS, I mean conducting a skills test at an established event, say a camporee or at summer camp, where an experienced leader can demonstrate the t-1 skills that comprise IOLS. Sicne a written test is not involved in IOLS, like there is for BSA Lifeguard, then they must do a skills check off. off the top of my head, they would have to show Totin Chip skills, pitch a tent, do orienteering course, etc. Again no written test, but a SKILLS test. HEY wait aminute, I just got a crazy idea to encourage adults keeping their skills sharp, Old Man Games, or Are You Smarter Than a First Class Scout games that would test and keep sharp scoutcraft skills?

OGE, How many new folks know that though, especially since it is not advertised like it use to be , i.e. Satisfaction Guarenetteed logo in every catalog and button worn by national scout shop staff? Also how many old fogeys will let it slide, b/c it is easier to fix the problem, then to cut off all the insignia, replace the uniform, and then sew the insignia back on?(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Concur with rest, especially since some units went form a "hikeing and camping" troop, to a "camping and boating" which limited the number of hikes we took. More camping and less hiking works for me

Don't know how long the raffles and door prizes have been going on, but my old pack did them back int he 80s. It was a raffle, I know, I know, and the money went into pack cophers.

BP, You got some overachievers out there. One guy I know of got his eagle last year at 13. He's now duel registered as a Scout and a Venturer, in fact he is out on a kayaking expedition with the crew as I type and will be leaving for PSR next week. While not a sea scout, yet anyway, he has said he wants Silver and Ranger. Edited; he's going to PSR with the troop. Crew is at Pamlico Sea Base, the council's nationally accredited high adventure base.(This message has been edited by eagle92)(This message has been edited by eagle92)

To my knowledge they are open to ALL venturing awards. It's just that only Sea Scouts can get Quartermaster.

I don't, always agree with Kudu, and this is one time that I think he only has part of the answer. He states that Leadership = Applied Scoutcraft + Charisma. I think something is missing. I think for scouting the equationshould be the following: Leadership= Applied Scoutcraft + Ability to teach/mentor + basic management skills (i.e. planning and executing events and activities, time management, etc) + Charisma. Let's face it, you can have all the scoutcraft knowledge in the world, but if you don't have the ability to communicate it so that someone can understand, it won't happen. Ditto the SPL you cannot plan and execute an event properly, or is always doign things last minute. Leadership tend to be a many legged stool, and if somethign is missing, the stool will wobble or worse, fall over. In reference to the entire thread, i think we are all onto something in that BSA needs to get the focus back on putting the outing into scouting. We need more adults who are comfortable in their outdoor skills AND have the ability ot pass alonmg these skills to the youth. IOLS is just that and intro. We need something more. I will also add that BSA neds a challenge system so that someone who does have the scoutcraft skills can test out of IOLS. Perfectly good example is my freind who's an eagle, did the old BA22 course and staffed it, is prior military, but hasn't gone through IOLS b/c his primary posiitons of CM and now crew Adviser doesn't require it, but the secondary ASM position does. Kidna funnyy seeing someone with the WB beads, woggle, and necker without a trained patch on their scout uniform b/c he hasn't done IOLS, yet is the Camping, Backpacking, Hiking, Canoeing, and Wilderness Survival MB counselor.

Not to change the subject, but membership just got mentioned and that is a buzzword for me. I beleive our current "membership woes" are a result of the overinflation of membership stats in years past. I honestly believe that the current stats are 99.9% more accurate than in the past. I bet that IF we keep to the traditional outdoor program, we will grow. Heck I bet we have grown, albeit not as great as has been reported in the past, because the membership stats have been so far off. As for Atlas and Scouting. I do believe he did advertise in BL.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

How could I forget BORS... DDDDDUUUUUHHHHH!!!!!!!!! yep we asked that question at EVERY BOR, and it was usually the last question asked. It is the best way to get an hoest critique of program. Another way of doing it is to have each PL ask their patrol for ideas to for program. Also please note, the book I referenced doesn't have a survey for critiqueing, it is a survey to get ideas for program in from scouts and it has a bunch of stuff. I find the form is good for younger scouts, but have used it with the OA.