Eagle92

BP You are correct the First Class requirement is for youth membership in the OA only, so the 19y.o. OA member should NOT have been inducted according to national's policy.

BadenP, According to the Guide for Officers and Advisers, an 18-20yo female ASM cannot be eligible for the OA. cannot cut and paste the passage, it's in a pdf file, but in a nutshell it says the following. All members of a unit under 21 years of age are eligible to be candidate into the OA if they meet the following criteria 1)be registered with the BSA 2)Hold the First Class rank of the BSA as a minimum (emphasis added) 3) Do 15 days and nites of camping. The site cited is the national OA Website under resources. It is password protected, but still don't want to give the direct link, every now and then I've been able to bypass passwords going directly to a link. Hope this helps. (This message has been edited by eagle92)

Short, best way to take care of the BSA and the flag on the centennial uniform is to get teh wife to embroider over the BSA iron on and sew a flag over the flag iron on. Gotta love the wife for emboridering, not I got to sew that flag on. I have the long sleeve with the swiss tabs, so that may be adding to the messy look on the shirt end. but also the front just looks cluttered compared to the ODL front, maybe the disco collar?

Once upon a time, WB required a uniform with all insignia off, a slick as some would call it, except for the CSP, red and white 1, and correct me if I'm wrong, your patrol medallion.Also you wore a regular BSA ballcap. Staff all wore their beads, neckers, woggles, and smokey bears. BA22, the predecessor to JLT, also required scouts to show up with a new shirt with no badges except CSP, red and white 22s, and flag (this was when you bought the flag seperately). No rank knots, patrol medallions, etc. Again a slick uniform. Staff wore either their WB regalia (adults) or BA22 regalia (BA22 necker, BROWNSEA strip between the CSP and 22) and all wore the smokey bear. The purpose of this was that irregardless of your lPOR in your home troop and you rank, you were hear to learn like your patrol mates, and you became essentially a New Scout in the BROWNSEA TROOP #22. However this changed for the youth with JLT, and WB21C don't require this. But I do know there is now a WB ball cap, so that may be the uniform hat they want you to wear? I don't know and won't find out this year as the second weekend of WB is the same weekend I go to CS NCS.

DCS, But mentoring and counseling is a responsibility of the SPL to his PLs, at least I taught the Counseling Segment during JLT, it may have been replaced when NYLT came out. But at 1 time BSA did teach counselign and mentoring to youth leaders. So a 16 yo SPL can mentor his PLs, but an 18 yo ASM can't? I think you are wasting a valuable resource by not using your young adult. Yes gbeing a Gray Area Scouter (GAS) can be challenging, but I know I made an impact with the youth I mentored and counseled during that period. heck as I said I taught that class at JLT, when I was a GAS.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

(in very loud booming voice) WHO FROWNS UPON WEARING THE CAMPAIGN HAT !?!?!?!?!?! Seriously though it is still an official uniform item, and can be worn. And since it appears that you did the old WB course I would wear it unless the T1's uniform is something different. Then of course you do need to wear the T1 hat. If they don't like the hat b/c of it's connection to the old WB course, sorry but that is ridiculous. As for relevance, YES the campaign is still relevant. It is a definitive trademark or scouting in the USA and worldwide, and IMHO the best looking and most practical hat ever authorized for uniform wear (sorry beret lovers). If you look at scouting pics form around the world, and even stereotypes of scouting, the two most common items are the smokey bear and the necker. Sashes are a close 3rd. Just look at UP. So wear your smokey and wear it with pride. As for me "they can pry it from my cold dead hands." LOL ( and yes I am passionate about my smokeys)

As Aerosmith and many others have said "never judge a book by it's cover." IT doesn't matter what is on the uniform. Wear what you earn or wear what you feel comfortable wearing, but wear it according to the Insignia Guide, and LIVE THE SCOUT OATH AND LAW, or THE SEA SCOUT PROMISE or THE CUB SCOUT LAW AND PROMISE, or THE VENTURING OATH as the case may be. it is more imporetant that we are a role model for the youth under us and our peers than the "swank" on the uniform. We can argue this topic until the cows come home, but I think we are missing the important things about the uniform. just my $.03 worth ( inflation you know )

Gern, I hear ya about the centennial ring. I try to wear only the stuff that has meaning that I earned. Yes I've earned the ring,and I do want to set the example with the cubs I'm now working with, but it's a "Gimme" so I am debating it also. But it looks so COOL on a CS uniform! Also is it just me, but do the bellows pockets and smokes pocket add to the cluttered look? I look my centennial uniform and it looks cluttered and messy, but when I look at my ODL, which has all the same stuff except unit numbers, it looks very neat.

Well I know a few adults who like to brag, usually they do not follow through. And I admit when I was a brand new OA chapter adviser at the ripe old age of 21, I too was seeking after the odd knot or two. My problem was that outside of my troop and a few folks on the lodge and council level, no one seemed to take a 21 yo Eagle and Vigil seriously (that may explain my post about the 18YO female ASM). I thought that if I earned the adult knots, then other adult leaders I came into contact with would take me more seriously. I was wrong, even after earning my STA, I still had folks telling me "You don't know what you're talking about," or "you don't know anything about the OA" despite serving on the council's training staff as SPL of the JLT course and serving on the lodge's ECM. Because these indiviudals had not seen me do my jobs in the past, they equated my age with a lack of KSAs and experience. I had a great chat one day with the council's VP of training as he was once my ASM for BA22, and we worked together numerous times in the OA. he said it isn't what you are wearing that defines you, but what you are DOING that matters. Yes you are entitled to where everything you earned, and in fact he encouraged me to do so, but the more important thing is HOW YOU ACT (caps for emphasis, not screaming) As BP would say, I got a lot of "swank" on my uniform. Yes it shows what I've done and been recognized with, but more importantly ti does a few things. First and foremost it reminds me that I must always live up the Scout Oath and Law, and as an Arrowmen, the Obligation as well. Secondly it sets the example for the scouts in the program. they see you fully uniformed, then they want to be fully uniformed two. I knwo my son couldn't wait to get his TC necker, and uniform shorts because he see me fully uniformed, and that included wearing a necker. Third the uniform serves as an inspiration to youth and adults alike. I love it when scouts and adults ask about some of the stuff I have on my uniform as it tells them of the opportunities that are available to them. I also point out some of the recognitions that others are wearing, especially the Philmont insignia. I want scouts and adults to think about having the same fun and adventure I had growing up and as a young adult in the program. Sorry I cna keep this up all morning, but hte kids are up now.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Mafaking, Would you put an 18 yo male in an ASM role? Then why not an 18yo female ASM? Units' COs have the ability to pick whoever they want as leaders, so if they want to, they can limit it to males only. Just as venturing crews can be limited to females only, it's up to the discretion of the CO. However I wouldn't discount the young lady due to age or gender. While I have one bad experience with females in Scouting with my sea scout ship (the ship was more of a babysitting servivce), I've had no problems since. One funny incident though. At a council camporee, there was a crew whose members were all girls b/c the males were with their troops. They were in the 14-16 yo range. It was patrol competitions, and all the troops were issued a book with details of all the events. The all girl crew didn't get any advance notice on what the events were until the nite before the events. However they did read the BSHB prior to coming to camporee, and the nite before after learning the events. They didn't want to compete, but just have fun. However someone in the district said that they were in the competition anyway as venturing crews could compete per the rules. Long story short, those 4 girls outshone all the patrols, including one venture patrol that did PHILMONT! Don't discount the ladies.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

As a former "Gray Area Scouter," a local term used to describe those ADULT Scout leaders age 18-20 who are also considered youth for OA and Venturing purposes, they are a valuable resource who can usually get the respect and attention of the youth better than soem of the "old fogeys" that I am part of Today Because I've "been there done that" the scouts could relate better to me than some of the other leaders. Usually the older scouts were ones I worked with in my role as a ASPL and as part of the Leadership Corps, so we had an established relationship that could be used when challenges arose. With the younger scouts, I was viewed as an example of what scouting could do and the fun that awaited you. I did have some specialized skills, mostly aquatic being a BSA Lifeguard with at the time 2 fifty milers under my belt AND a YMCA Lifeguard instructor, so I had some serious skills and certifications that other adult leaders did not have. Sorry if this seems a rant, but it seems like some folks in the BSA wants the youth to gain KSAs to be leaders, but once they hit the 18-20 year old period, suddenly all the KSAs that you spent instilling in the young adult over the past 7 years are meaningless, and you no longer trust them to do anything.

As for OA, here is where it gets intersting, if memory serves. Anyone 20 and under gets a vote in an OA unit election, including leaders 20 and under. ALSO leaders 20 and under who were First Class and meet the campign requirement can be eligible. Since she wasn't a First Class Scout, she can vote, but not be eligible.

Yep she can register as an ASM, a CSADL, or a WADL for adult roles, and as a venturer or Sea Scout as a youth. heck she can even dual register as an adult with one unit, and as a youth with another. As for YP, ya gotta love the "gray area scouts" cause in some programs they are adults, and in others they are youth. So when she is on a troop overniter, no need for an adult female as she IS an adult female, but with a crew, you better have an adult female.

I think BadenP is misdirecting. He's thinking of those who are, for lack of a better term, "addicted" to scouting for a variety of reasons, usually the uniform, bhutting in where they shouldn't. If that's the case, I agree 100%, esp. if they are not registered. But for those who do register, I think a uni is good. Now why do we do it. I know I grew up in a troop with uniform culture. You wear POR that you are serving in to set the example. If you have another shirt, go ahead and make it into a shirt for your second POR. Now two very good friends of mine did the velcro thing. One had the unit number and POR patches attached to velcro sinced he served as a CM with one unit, ASM for another, and on the DisCom. He held those PORs not because of ego, but b/c the district was having challenges and he stepped up to the plate. SO he had to switch unit numbers, PORs, and loops. The other guy was a WL and SM for the same CO, so he just switched out loops and PORs One grew up in atroop very similar tomine, the other is a Marine who believes in setting hte example.

Baden, I think I understand better now. Yep I mety a few of thsoe folks as well. The left b/c of the SE and refused to be registered b/c of him, but were somewhat active still, usually on EBORs and helping with events (lots of our events were sponsored by community organizations, and theier members would attend). What was funny is after i left the council, the SE announced he was leaving, and I was invited to a party by a bunch of them to celebrate with champagne. Again my view of the uniform is based upon my expereinces. The support folks were active. Like the female COR who wore her old DL uniform. That eagle scout who was IH/COR did attend unit functions as much as possible, and was resposnible at major council events for conducting religious services. As for the two nuts in my old troop and affiliated crew, i don't know if they had a second uni or not (more than likely yes though), but I do know both were active in the units that they were in a support position for. the Troop CC did it because he beleived in setting the example for the other adult leaders and youth leaders. Wearing the uni was an expectation(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Why do support folks wear a uniform, probably for the same reasons leaders and youth wear one. The uniform does a variety of things. 1) it identifies you as a member of the world's largest youth movement 2) it is a physical reminder of you to live up to the ideals of Scouting. 3) It identifies your role, activities, and achievements in the movement 4) It's an equilizer. 5) it sets the example for the youth leaders, who set the exampel to the scouts.

Short, Unfortunately in my 27 years, I've only seen 5 CORs wearing a uniform: 1 was dual registered as an ASM with the troop (don't ask) and he wore s uni with ASM por; 1 was an eagle, and as involved as possible with the pack and troop ( also served on the council's Catholic Committee on Scouting); 1 had a legacy with scouting, starting as a "Den Mother," and the other was the LDS Bishop who also served as Dis. Chair. The 5th one was interesting: COR of one pack and troop, but served as an ASM for another! Baden, Forgot to mention, not all "support staff" folks sit in the rear with the gear. In my troop growing up, there was a uniform culture on the youth side, and the adults fell right into it as well. Some MCs did not have uniforms and that was fine, but those that played a more active role, i.e. going camping, summer camp, etc did have a uniform, did wear a uniform as it was expected. Thinking about my old troop, there were 7 CORs I know who wore uniforms. At one point the COR of the troop tripled as COR/CC of the troop and (you're gonna love this) adviser of the crew. AND the COR/CC of the crew also served as SM of the troop. DON'T ASK HOW, but the CO actually had a different COR for each unit!

Baden, Some of us do have multiple uniforms for a variety of reasons. I know I had 2 shirts back in the day,one with the troop insignia, one with the BA22 stuff which later became a troop shirt. I know of some leaders who went through the old WB course that converted their WB shirts to additional shirts. As for me, I got a bunch of unis b/c the 2 BSA jobs I had required me to have them, and yes the Sea Scout uni was required for me to work at the council's seabase. I've kept them, and although I don't use all of them, I have one with the DisCom patch that I will wear when I do training courses and district events, I have one with the OA associate adv. for when i do OA events as i am still an AA until the end of the year, and of course I do have my TCDL uni. The sea scout uni comes out on a few opccasions, usually at nautical themed events like CSDC this year, but otherwise the uniforms are in storage. Thinking about it, maybe I should wear my DisCom uniform to pack meetings since that is my primary registration with the BSA. (This message has been edited by eagle92)

BadenP, You do have some folks with multiple uniforms. I know the summer camp staff are encouraged to have a venturing uniform, are given an employee discount to purchase it, and are told by the council to wear silver. The OA folks I know do have multiple uniforms and wear them according to the position they are serving in at the moment. Also as someone else pointed out, the national venturing president and national chief, section chiefs, etc do wear gold loops when they are serving in the position. One thing I've learned is that while scouting is an international movement, it is truly done on the local level. And things do vary from place to place. In my old council, the LC and CCs were not part of the CED or DisCom respectively. here they are.

Yep the VOA folks have their own patches unlike the OA folks While I understand the importance of the OA folks serving their units, the OA does take a lot of responsibility. i have no problem with the repros i've seen, or having a 14 YO OA CC wearing a DisCom Por Sctldr, Sometimes folks are in multiple positions, sometimes registered and have a card like the district committee and exec board, and sometimes are de facto members because of their POR, like our OA folks and VOA president. LC is a full fledge voting member of the CEB and the CC is a full fledge member of the DisCom. We don't have a VOA pres atthe moment, but I beleive that is something they are workign on. Now as for that venturing crew I told you about. I'ld rather them wear the silver loops saying they are council employees, which they are during the summer, than the old tradition of choosing ribbon to make their own loops. Also liek the fact that the council now makes a POR patch for them depending upon their role at camp: Camp Bonner Staff or Camp Bonner Director. Would love to haevmy hands on one of those as well as the all in one CSP/unit number combo with Camp Bonner Staff added to the CSP portion. LOOKS SPIFF!

While I don't advocate what one of my teachers in grad school did on occassion, "forget what's on the syllabus for tonite and let's talk about what you will encounter in the field, let's talk about..." i do think it is important to provide info from experience to highlight or emphasis parts of the training. Or when questions are asked.

For those who bought the rings, did ya trim the excess backing or leave it be? And if ya trimmed, did you do outside the patch and in the "donut hole?" The patch looks nice, but the excess backing makes it look bad, and if you trim the excess inside the ring, there is a gap between the two patches. I bought a few, one for my son and one for my collection. Debating whether to put it on any of the uniforms as it is more "swank," and it is a gimme. Grant you the WC that it goes around is also a gimme these days, but I wear mine 'cause i earned it back in the day. We'll see.

I've also seen Venturers wear silver for the following reasons 1) Part of Council Executive Board. Our OA Lodge Chief is part of the CEB and does wear silver when doing OA duties 2) Part of the district committee. Ditto our CC being part of the committee 3) Summer camp staff. not only are they their own crew, but they are also employees, so they wear the silver.

In 1996, the age limit was 13 for COPE, and that was taught at NCS. As for being risk adverse, I do have mixed emotions. Some families are very outdoor oriented and their kids have a huge advantage in out door skills. One example is a friend of mine whose daughter has been camping since about 8 and backpacking since about 12. she is now a Venturer and is eating it up. But you have other families who are not outdoor oriented and the kids are truly "Tenderfoots" when they join scouting. I think it's about balance

It is a very doable project. I had one of my scouts do that same thing 10+ years ago. Yes he used his resources, i.e the comp. lab teacher, but he did the fundraising, recruited the boys to install the computers, etc.