Eagle92

Emb, Thanks a bunch. I've done the online stuff already and am familiar with the recognition system, heck it was one of the selling points for the few crews I started 11 years ago. Just wanted to know for sure.

BP, Mandatory training is on the way. FWIW, some trainings are already required, but there is no enforcement in that there is no double checking if the person has the training or not. We all know that SCOUTNET is not 100% accurate. Also some units are not filling out the paperwork, but still going on trips.

Duplicate post(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Crew, Good point in that skill and abilities do vary from location to location. That may be something to consider in creating a course. As to why a course like this would be important, I can see a troop, or even a crew for that matter, having a leader uncomfortable with their outdoor skills and holding back a unit from doing more advanced activities b/c it's outside their comfort zone. Let's face it a SM does influence on what a troop does. I had one SM who was a runner and walker. We did a lot of hiking and camping. Another SM I knew was an aquatics nut, first time I ever heard of Quartermaster was when asked about his knot, and guess what, the troop started doing more aquatics based activities like canoe camping and motorboating. I admit I'm not the perfect outdoorsman, plant ID and eco con stuff is a big weakness of mine, but I do have a lot of KSAs and experience in the outdoors that I'm comfortable taking out groups on HA trips. But there are SMs who do not have the KSA or experience to do this, and I guess that is what the advance training would be for.

Ok stupid question, but here it goes. Back in the Dark Ages, I did Explorer Basic Leader Training, again before Venturing split off. I was around when and a member of both a Post turned Crew and Ship when the change occurred, and was told then that I was considered trained Venturing leader as the EBLT was still valid. As we know, there was a lot of misinformation at that time, with the best example being the term VENTURE CREWS instead of VENTURING CREWS,(I still hear that one from senior pros), due ot the fact that the program appeared very hastily brought out. So the question is this: If I become re-affiliated with a crew, would I be considered trained still or would I have to go through that training again? I ask because of the talk of mandatory training coming down the road. Thanks in advance

Broken, So the various CSLS courses are no longer required? I know I had to attedn a day long training for that cert, and glad I did. I had one of the best CS trainers do CSLBT as it was called back then and covered all CS positions. Also what about SMS and IOLS? I had to have those, but luckily already did them as a volunteer. Now I know Exploring Basic Leader training has been replaced with venturing, so is the Venturing leader Specific training required?

Eamonn, Could the "decline" in membership stats actually be because our membership stats are not being inflated anymore? It's been reported that several councils have inflated their membership stats, which led to a new method of verifying membership. According to the news reports as much as 1/3 of their membership was inflated.

Short, Crazy idea but it works. Laminate the patch. When you trim the laminate, make sure you have enough left to make a loop. One sheet of laminate can do several pacthes.

So the newer Silva are getting bubbles. That's good to know b/c my newish Silva ( 9 years old) just got bubbles and I thought that somehow the kids messed it up, just couldn't figure how they could have found it. I got an old Silva from the 1960s that my mom-in-law got for me one Christmas, It's great. Friend of mine swears by his Brunton, and carries it with him on the job. as a backup. He has a cool GPS that he uses on the job.

"But Skip I was just reading my Scout Handbook!" MAN it's been a while since I heara d the term "Skip" in reference to a SM.

Grace, Welcome to the forums. Lots of good info here for you and your SON to get. from the MBC question and the POR question, it sounds like you are not letting your son do what he is suppose to do. I'ld let him do all the grunt work Also the two new PORS won't count until Jan 1 when the new requirements go into effect, if I'm not mistaken.

Ok found 3 packs in NJ using K-Kubs. http://www.pack55isawesome.com/dens.htm http://www.cubscoutpack56.com/index.asp http://njpack159.org/

the pack did have a website, now I can't fidn the site. They are actually in NJ.

I have a few problems with mandatory training, but understand the sentiment, and agree. FYI here are my 2 problems: 1) SCOUTNET is not at this time a reliable databse for maintaining records and 2) You do have older scouters who have these skill already, or younger leaders who grew up in the program and have these skills already who wouldn't see the value of these courses. Can't fix SCOUTNET but I got two ideas for the second problem 1) we can get them on staff, and 2) implement a challenge option to these courses. As for mandatory training in general, it is coming our way. It's being beta tested in a few councils now, and my SE mentioned it on a FB post of his. Someone mentioned summer camp as the place for this, how about evening sessions with the SCOUTCRAFT staff? that way 1) The adults can see what youth and young adult leaders are capable of, 2) gets the young adults teaching these skills the "trained" certification 3) forces the scoutcraft staff to focus on their skills and teaching abilities even more. Please keep the ideas coming!

GREAT IDEAS ALL PLEASE KEEP THEM COMING!!!!! (This time I am shouting as I think this discussion is going places ) As I said on the original thread, it's kinda funny that this discussionin one form or another has been going in on this site, and on Friday I get a FB post from my SE about mandatory training and how to improve the current training program. So I want some ideas to bring to the training committee and the SE.

Venture patrols do work, so I second that. As for the 'Young Scouts" running the meetings, glad you told them to get off tehir duff and dosomethign about it as THEY are suppose to be running the meetings, teaching skills, ect as THEY have the KSAs to do it. As for them being bored at camporees camps, etc. A few ideas. 1) CHALLENGE THEM to beat the other patrols int he troop and otehr troops. THEY may be surprised at how much their skills are laggin behind the "young Scouts" 2) have them create the campout program. Again they have the KSAs 3) have them plan 3-4 activities that they can do by themselves throughout the year. It could be in conjuntion with a troop planned event, or they can go their own way. Give them the ability ot and resposnibility for doing something ANYTHING, on their own AND LET THEM DO IT, unless of course it violates G2SS. good luck and my caps is for emphasis, not shouting.

Emb, Thanks for the info on the old WB course and Powderhorn. the Old WB course was advertised as such where I grew up, so that is how I wrote it. Also Haven't taken Powderhorn, so I cannot comment on it, that's why I asked. I remember those pamphlets, and that they were not much of a seller in the Scout Shop I worked at. If memory serves, and you know what happens when you get old, they weren't really "advanced" courses, but truly more detailed lesson plans to teach the basics than the Woods Wisdom book, now called Troop Program Features vols. 1-3 and Troop Resource Book. Now I have to try and find my Rappelling/Rock Climbing and Team Building books as they were part of the COPE book at NCS. I could be wrong about the books, they may have seem basic to me as I was in a "hiking and camping troop."

Ok this is a spin off thread, adn also related to the GernBadge thread. Does the BSA need an Advanced Outdoor Leadership Training (AOLS) to teach advanced outdoor skills and topics not taught at IOLS? WB once did this, but no longer. Does POWDERHORN do this? Or does a new training need to be created? Also what format woudl you use: weekend courses, modular courses that could be done at a UoS? What about RT presentations? The Gernbadge idea was a good one. Come on folks with all the experience we have here, soemhting can be done? Or maybe, we can go back to GBB? Only thing I request is NO DISCOUNTING WB21C. This is to be an additional training opportunity.

GB, I hear ya and that happened to me after doing my first 50 miler up in Canada. That and I also had to work so support myself growing up. BUT you can get them to come to meetings and get them to teach the skills they know to the younger ones. The secret I believe is to have a few activities through out the year that they can do by themselves awayy from the younger scouts.

WHAT A GREAT PROBLEM! Seriously a troop with 80 active youth is awesome. now to the question at hand: how to get the older scouts involved. 1)Instill in them a sense of "it's time to pay back by helping the younger scouts" This can be doen in a variety of ways: the SPL giving them all a variety of teachign and leadership assignemts, usually focusing on the skils they have mastered. Of course letting them organize and ru the troop meeting and campouts via the PLC is another method, and the one that should be used no matter what. The key is you got to motivate themto do it, and then LEt THEM PASS THE IDEA OF GIVIGN BACK ON TO THE YOUNGER SCOUTS. 2)Reward the older scouts by allowign them to do activities on their own. This could be compeltely separate for the troop, or for some activities, having them do a different activity form the rest of the troop. A good exampelof the latter would be the troop doign one type of hike, and the older scouts doign a more challenging one. 3) Counsel and advise them via a SMC. Good luck.

Mark, I understand why it's being done, to promote WB. but the problem I have is the lack of uniform recognition fro ALL staffers. Now in referecne to adults understanding and wanting to take WB, I agree BUT there is one caveat: the two courses are so similar that the NYLT staffer may be bored, or worse feel like they wasted their time and money. One of my youth staffers for JLT turned 18 shortly after JLT and signed up for WB. i go the chance to talk to him and the basically told me that I should save my time and money for when I need a refresher as the only difference between the two courses was the ticket. grant you this was the old BSLWB and JLT, but it appears that NYLT and WB21C are identical still, an appearance that is only solidified by the awarding of WB beads to NYLT adult staff.

What I think gern and others lament about WB is the fact that outdoor skills are not emphasised as they use to be. Back in the day, when I firts looked at taking WB, You had to be fully trained SM or ASM, ie taken the SM Fundamentals course (today's TiS, SM Specific, and IOLS) AND be in a leadership role for 2 years. The only exception to the 2 year rule would be young adults in the 18-20 bracket who gre w up in the program. So you had to have a foundation in outdoor skills PRIOR to takign BS WB. Sorry don't know the prereqs for CS WB. Today to take WB, you can be a brand new CS leader with less than a year's expereince and no outdoor training, and take WB. I actually got into a discussion on this topic with my SE. HE told me that no one could go through WB without taking IOLS, and I had to rmind him that Cub Scouters and venturing leaders are not required to take IOLS, but can go through WB. he replied that he forgot about that, and talked about coming up with some advance outdoor skills courses. So Gern et al, can i steal your ideas for GernBadge?

Sephrina, TCs are no longer a 'stand alone" program as they were originally. They are fully integrated into cub scouts now. LDS units still do some things "old school" i.e the old 3 year CS program, and roughly follow the old age 12 requirements for scouts. The 11 yos. if memory serves are registeerd in a troop, but do things separately. Any way, LDS units are not the norm as they fully integrated their youth ministry into scouting, so there are some major differences between normal scouting and LDS scouting.

A few ideas for training. 1) Do it yourself, i.e TLT, JLT or whatever it is called now on the troop level. Since this is the troop level. and the SM IS responicble for training, you could add relevent information that is missging form the sylabus. 2) harder to do, btu I've seen it done: have a district level Youth Leadership Training Day (or whatever you wan tto call it.) if you got NYLT trained scouts, use them, otehrwise work with the SM and district training chair to create day long trainging course. It may not be NYLT, but it could be somehting.

Mark, First the stuffI agree with. Love the idea of the staff pin, but hatis a lcoal think to my knowledge. Would love for it be a national one. Also loke the idea of youth teaching soem WB classes. Heck I like the idea of having youth teaching some IOLS classes. For a variety of reasons. But won't post here becasue I don't want to hijack the thread. But my question is this: if you are going to recognize adult NYLT staffers with WB beads, then why not allow youth participants to be recognized with WB beads, since the implication is that the two courses are identical, and recognize those adults who staff the event with WB beads? After all they are teachign the WB course, and if staff trainings are like the ones I did, they are living the patrol method? Again I do not have a problem with recognizing folks for their hard work, BUT I do have a problem with recognizing SOME folks and not others. The implication I'm getting is "because I've done WB, I'm better than you," even though EVERYONE is busting butt and workign hard to make the NYLT course a success.