Eagle92

WELCOME TO THE FORUMS! (and I am shouting at ya this go around.) Now to get to this: What kind of involvement do you think I could partake in as a volunteer? Yes some units will look at you funny if you show up and offer to help out if you don't have kids in the program. And let's face it, they want to make sure the Scouts are safe. But I have found that if you talk to them, things will work out. I know I got some funny looks when I moved around and was looking at troops to help. But talking to leaders helps. And if a troop don't want you, try the district level. Grant you, you will be workign with adults and not kids, but I've foudn the following advantages to being on the district: 1) By working with the adults, you can "multiply" your efforts with the youth, especially in the area of training. One good trainer can affect dozens of youth by providing them with a leader who knows his stuff. 2)It gets units a chance to know you from you district work, and they become more comfortable with when you decide go back to the unit level. One caveat, I've found that once you are on the district level, they will always find a place for you. 3) It gives you a chance to scope out the units and see which one is best for what you are looking for. If you really want to give back, and give back a lot IMHO, you can find the struggling unit and help them out. If you are looking for a unit for your kids to join when the time comes, you know what you are looking for. In that last case, that is what I did. I narrowed the list of packs for oldest to join, and took him visiting. Now all of the following is my opinion, so you can take it with a grain of salt. And this is based upon your post on the outdoors. Your website is being blocked by the filters at work. It sounds as if you are an "outdoor freak" as some of my friends would way. You have heavy expereince in the outdoors and are comfortable teaching thsoe skills. THERE IS A SERIOUS NEED FOR GOOD INTRO TO OUTDOOR LEADER SKILLS TRAINERS! (emphasis not shouting this time) I conducted an IOLS in January, and was very surprised at how much basic outdoor info is missing from the current BSHB. The lack of information is so bad IMHO, that I actually created a booklet with various basic outdoor skills that use to be in the BSHB and field book. I was fortunate in that I recruited good staffers who knew their stuff. Ok so the first aid guy was a little long winded, we won't mention names SCTDAD, but his FA expereince is phenominal, he made the entire presentation fun, especially since all of the folks already had basic first aid certs or higher (EMT instructor, USN corpsman, and RN were in the class), and on the evals was the #1 class. I just hope the guy never reads this and get a swollen head

Brew, I respectfully disagree on going back to one color for the pin not solving the problem. If we went back to one color, then it wouldn't matter if Timmy Tiger who joined June 1 before fall Round Ups got the same pin as everyone else. And the Round Up Tigers wouldn't feel left out b/c they can't get the Tiger specifc pin. Jerry

Brew, You ain't joking about how some long term scouters feel about Cubs. Heck I had a member of the council camping committee tell me "Cubs don't need to camp." So every time I go to an outdoor event where I will see him, I make darn sure to wear my "blue terror" uniform. Also make wise alecky remarks on occasion about how I'm transporting my gear on my back while he's "acting like a CS parent" driving his stuff to his campsite or wherever he is setting up. I had one long term scouter adamant that the council whad to move one of the council level Cub Family camping weekends b/c that is always the district Boy Scout camporee weekend at the camp. Luckily the SE was on the Cub Scout side on this matter. Also luckily for all involved, we were able to change some dates around, otherwise the Boy Scouts would have been outta luck. And don't get me started on the district committee. Until Feb. I was the only regular Cub Scouter on the committee, and everything was BS oriented. Heck when I did attend last meeting, I had to interject some stuff in regards to Cub Scout advancement stats (way off), dates for the district calendar, and remind folks of upcoming events that relate to their jobs.

Again, going back to one color for all grades would be ideal. The you wouldn't have the "hey how come I'm getting an orange one and he's getting a red one" thing.

As others have mentioned, burn out is a big deal, especially now that Cubs is a 5 year program. I know a few who did it well after their sons got out of Scouting, and in all honesty I don't now how they do it. Cub Scouts is 100 times harder than Boy Scouts. As why folks remain in troops after their sons leave, it's because Scouting is addictive, esp. if you have a 'Hiking and Camping Troop." As to being involved in both, in about 16 months I'll be in that situation, and again I don't know how I'm going to manage, esp. since the troop meets on the nights my wife takes care of her mom. I have a feeling I'll be an MC and just do the camping. Best bet IMHO is not to have adult troop leaders workign with the pack, but get some Den Chiefs going. And IMHO not only do the den chiefs need training, BUT THE DEN LEADERS NEED TO BE TRAINED IN HOW TO USE THEM (emphasis, ok maybe a little shouting ) When I was a DC, the first den I worked with didn't really use me and I was fruistrated. I switched dens and that made a BIG difference. Also I had a DC and used him extensively. When the WDL quit, and that den needed someone with camping experience, I asked him if he would mind working with them, and he said no problem. But once he go there, the new WDL didn't really utilize him and he too got frustrated.

Richard, Ok in all seriousness, which version of CPR would you recommend teaching Scouts. I have my opinion, and will be doing it in 2 weeks with my former den for Readyman, but this question has arisen on this thread, and with some MBCs. FYI here are the AHA versions, and I don't know the names of ARC version, but ARC follows AHA guidleines for CPR, and AHA follows ARC first aid guidelines: ADULT Compression Only CPR No certifiaction card issued Heartsaver CPR Depending upon the course will cover one man infant, child, and adult CPR using the new Compression, Airway, Breathing (CAB) method. cert card is issued Basic Life Support One and two man infant, child, and adult CPR using CAB, as well as advanced airways. This is the CPR course required for BSA Lifeguard.

Click, You are correct in that no one can add to the requirements. BUT no one can subtract fromt he requirements either. And the problem as I see is in the interpretation of "doing" the requirements. I posted in another thread on this topic that previous editions of the BSHB had the term "master the skills" ( all bold and caps are emphasis, not shouting) to describe when a Scout should seek sign off. That is no longer in the current BSHB, although a similar phrase the badge represents what the scout can do, not a reward for what he has done". At least in my troop and the scouts I encountered as a youth for the most part, that was the expectation, and hence the standard. But then national came up with this First Class, First Year program, and all the current literature promotes this, including the training literature. Let's face it, when the IOLS syllabus encourages trainers to give out score cards with the different T-2-1 skills on it, and sign off the leader going through the training after doing it, that encourages the "One and Done" mentality I see arising in scouting today. Also our society has much lower expectations of youth these days. People I work with cannot believe some of the stuff I did as a youth in Scouting, and twoof them were career interst Exploring leaders! And let's face it, when 25 year olds are considered "children" and not responsible adults, you got problems. In fact on the radio this morning, I heard how one guy would not want his 15 y.o. son to learn how to defend himself in a Columbine like situation by attacking the gunmen with whatever is at hand AS A LAST RESORT(emphasis). Anyone still read "Scouts in Action"? People just do not have expectations anymore.

Whatever they were on June 1 is the pin they would be working on. For example, my middle son became a Tiger on June 1, and has earned the Orange Summertime Pine. Oldest joined June 1 a few years back, and also teh TC one, as well as the red Wolf one and baby blue Bear one. Since he became a Webelos on June 1 of this year, he earned his first Webelos one. next year he will earn his second Webelos pin. I really wish national would go back to the original, one color Summertime Award Pin. Then all this confusion would be gone.

We had a Scout, made it to Star with us and was in out Leadership Corps transfer to another troop for the stated reason that the meetings interefered with his band schedule, but there was some speculation among us youth that it was not getting elected SPL. Anyway he spent about a 12-18 months with them, got Life, got bored with them, and transferred back. We welcomed him with open arms and he got Eagle eventually.

BP, My opinion, stressing opinion, is that Career Interest Exploring is what caused Sea Scouts to wither. Someone pointed out that after the intro of Career Interest Exploring, as well as the creation of Red, White, and Blue fleets for Traditional, Nontraditional, and maritime career oriented ships, the number of Sea Scouts dropped drastically. Also I see a simile with the non-traditional ships and some ships today with troops being led by SMs grew up in Scouting from 1972 - 1979: Those skippers from non-traditional ships are following what they learned, just as the SMs are following what they learned: more leadership and less outing. Hmm maybe that's what's wrong with national? Too many big wigs, both volunteers and pros, grew up when the emphasis was not on the Outing in Scouting?

AH CARUMBA!!!!!!!!! And thanks for the link for the free download. And aside since you know a bunch of regional and national Sea Scout folks, you can tell them the "What Did You Do This Weekend?" Sea Scout promotional videos are working, at least in my household. Oldest made the comment "That looks cool!" and when he found out I only made it to Ordinary, stated, "I wanna get Quartermaster."

It's 30 years now for me and 'Rat hit the most important ones. Some others were Then: Had to be in 3rd grade to be Cub Scout, Tiger Cubs was a separate program for 2nd graders that started in August 1982 and packs didn't have to have them since they were an option. Now: Tigers are fully integrated into the Cub Scout program and the grade has dropped to 1st grade. Then: Cubs didn't camp except for "Lad and Dad" weekends in the summer at the council camp. Now: Cub families will quit if you don't go camping.

Sailing, Is the new manual THAT bad? Don't have a copy, and don't want to spend the $25+ tax on a book I wont' use at this time.

Here's the rule of thumb my troop used: size of tent as advertised / 2 = Number of folks and gear My troop used 4 man tents with 2 people in them for the most part. Ocassionally you had a 3rd.

Sailing, I have a hypothesis on the reasons why the national advancement folks are so out of touch with how Sea Scouts do things and think the BORs are similar: they have no idea on how the Sea Scout program works at all and have no experience whatsoever with the program, despite Sea Scouts being the second oldest program in the BSA, and scouting worldwide. So the volunteers on that committee are clueless. And very few pros have any idea about Sea Scouts, heck my SE what uniform I was wearing when I wore my working khakis to a council level meeting. Charlie Holmes took a very strong interest in Sea Scouts, heck he was the first pro I ever saw in a Sea Scout uniform. If memory serves, Keith Christopher's had a daughter in Sea Scouts. If so, he had an indirect background in the program.

Actually the convertible pants with the ankle zips are 1st generation convertibles and go with the ODL uniform, not the CU. CU's are a shade darker. Biggest problem with those pants is that they are way to big waist wise. As 00Eagle said, Tan and greens for Boy Scout and Varsity Scout, red and whites for Cub Scouts and Venturers. Sea Scouts officially don't wear numbers anymore, although many ships still use the white on blue, or blue on white numbers, depending upon the uniform worn, BUT back to the CUs, according to the literature that came out with the CU in May 2008, info on the uniforms came out before the Aug 1, 2008 release of the uniform and May 2009 release of the Insignia Guide, all items of the CUs and old ODLs are interchangeable. So you could wear those read and whites if you were a Boy Scout leader.

Short, Like I mentioned, wasn't trying to "interrogate" him, but asking conversationally. In this instance, I was trying to learn about the new area I moved into. I wasn't looking for details except, "What are some of the local tribes that are in or were in this area?" Oh, and some advice n where to look for info. BD, Glad the new leadership is trying.

Ris, In regards to my example. Granddad was SM, dad was ASM, mom was CC or MC, and all three plus an uncle or two were MBCs. He was a 3rd generation, and all the males in the family were Eagles. Problem wasn't caught until the district EBOR. Base, Agree with ya 110% BUT (emphasis) I also blame National with their First Class First Year emphasis, IMHO after 1989 was when I started seeing this problem and that was when FCFY came about AND previous national training committee and their literature. I distinctly remember the IOLS syllabus stating that you should hand out scorecards to participants so that as they do the skills, you sign them off, just like you would a scout. IMHO, that is promoting the "One and Done" mentality. And that is the sad thing: new leaders coming back from training bringing back this mentality. Oh and good luck with your scouts kicking butt at camporee.

Raisin' I'll see your floods, and raise you tornadoes

I do not like parents who gripe and moan. You want to gripe and moan, fill out a volunteer application and be part of the solution.

Ris, As stated an EBOR "Not a Retest or Examination Though one reason for a board of review is to ensure the Scout did what he was supposed to do to meet the requirements...." And as someone who has sat on BORs, I've been sitting on BORs for over 26 years now, there are ways to tell if a scout has actually earned something or not without it being a retest. And BORs at all levels do have a responibility to insure that the requirements have been met. In the case I mention where the district advancement committee resigned en masse, the reason for the denial was that all the MBCs used by the young man were family members who basically signed them off. The EBOR when talking about the MBs he earned couldn't get answers from him. They felt he didn't actually earn them, and came up with a way for him to meet the requirements legitimately. Again this is what I was told by the DE, so you can take that with a grain of salt. He appealled their decision, won, and the advancement committee basically said the heck with it. BUT what I do know is that when I met the young man, I did not know who he was, and he was wearing his MB sash. One MB on it was the Indian Lore MB, one that I am extremely interested in and serve as a MBC. Since I had just moved to the area, I started a conversation by asking some basic questions on the local area Indians that he should have known. I got a deer in the headlights look. Funny thing is, I didn't know much about the area, and he could have made up stuff and I may or may not have fallen for it. But he knew nothing, not even on mor ecommonly used nations like the Cherokee, Sioux, etc. This raised some concerns to me, and I politely asked him about some other, local stuff that he should have known about in order to get the MBs worn on the sash. Still deer in the headlights. Finally our conversation ended and we walked away. It was then that my coworker came up to me and stated something along the lines, "So what do you think about the reason why my advancement committee quit?"

John, Problem is that different folks interpret national policy different ways. Best example is thos folks who believe a scout does it one time and gets signed off versus those who believe that a scout must "master the skill" per previous BSHB before sign off to insure that "the badge represents what the scout can do, not reward for what he has done" or whatever the exact quote from G2A says. I know of cases where the scout rightly appealed the decision. Heck I was almost one of them as the dist. adv. chair threatened to deny my Eagle b/c he didn't sign off on the ESSP paperwork, one of his predecessors did. And I know of a case where the appeal was won by the scout, and the district advancement committee felt so strongly about the appeal's decision, that they resigned en mass. Sad thing is, I met the scout,and after talking to him I could see why the volunteers were upset.

In regards to fake IDs, they are so easy to obtain, ti is ridiculous. For whatever reason, in NC they mail, yes MAIL, your drivers license to you. When you go to the DMV, they issue you a paper one without a picture. SOOOO a thief can interpreter the mail and modify a license. Best story was the college students who broke into a DMV and stole the machine that makes licenses. They did get caught eventually, making fake IDs in their dorm room, but don't know how many IDs were made.

HOLY QUACAMOLE!!!!!!! I lived in that parish, LA has parishes instead of counties, and that was down the street from where my wife worked.

I have mixed emotions on this, but I am a "program freak." I did a quick review of the 36 page Lodge JTE requirements and explainations. Overall the requirements are good, and I know that 2 of the 5 lodges I've been in either were meeting or had goals to improve in the areas covered by JTE. And, again in my quick review, I did not notice any mandatory requirements like in previous programs. I think this is good b/c I know of outstanding lodges that, becasue they didn't meet 1 requirement by 3 people, didn't get it, while a neighboring lodge that didn't do 1/2 the stuff the other lodge did, get the award. Grant you it should not be about the award, but cheerful service. But I've seen the disappointment in youth leaders over the matter. One thing that I know will probably change, my chapter will probably start broadcasting the money they have camp improvements and local camperships in order to help the lodge. Yes the chapter contributes a campership to the lodge fund, but after an incident a few years back under a previous SE, they tend to keep things to themselves and supply a district campership when needed.