Eagle92

from the BSA website: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/boyscouts/guideformeritbadgecounselors/rankadvancefaq.aspx Question: Rank advancement requires a Scout to demonstrate Scout spirit. How is Scout spirit defined and determined? Answer: Scout spirit applies to how a Scout lives and conducts his daily life. He shows Scout spirit by being a role model to his peers ( emphasis added), living by the Scout Oath and Law. The concept of Scout spirit is not based on how many Scouting events or outings a Scout attends, but rather by how he helps bring out the best in others as a reflection of his own character and attitude in his daily life. For some units, "being a role model" includes wearing a uniform properly as it is what some leadership principles call "setting the example" Edited: I know this thread was spi\ubn from the uniform and EBOR thread, that's why I focused on the comments above. (This message has been edited by eagle92)

IM, YEP Tan and reds. For about 1-2 weeks in April, literature from national showed CS leaders in red numbers on a tan background. These were never produced to my knowledge. IF so I want soem as they would eb a collector's item I was ticked in that I heard a lot of stuff out there: CS leaders wear edn adn whies, wear tan and reds, wore tan and greens ad nauseum. I even called my old Scout shop and they had no clue. And this was nationally owned scout shop who had no clue and were complaining about the lack of directions form HQ. So I went ahead and bought the tan and green numbers and trained strip based upon the advice from them. And I was ticked b/c I now had to buy yet another set of patches. As someone else said, i eventually succumbed to buying a new set of numbers an the newest red and tan trained strip, the one that fits on the smokes pocket that is meant to be worn by CS leaders. Funny there is no mention if Venturing leaders can wear it too, I did it for two reasons. First and foremost I guessed at the confusion this has caused, and it came to pass, and felt that I better get the uniform right now, especially since I will be with the pack for 10 years, and two, #2 I got the centennial CSP, might as well redoe the entire sleeve. Yes it has casued alot of confusion, and anger among leaders and parents. We are letting folks be as last year's new leaders, and this years Webelos IIs were told to get the tan and greens. Heck ther is still literature from national with Webelos and CS leaders in tan and green numbers. Just look at the cnew catalog, and one of the female leader uniform sheets. EDIT I make a joke out of the situation now that my anger has subsided and so has a bunchof other leaders and parents. Since I am one for vintage uniforms, we are saying that everyone with the tan and green numbers is in a "vintage 2008 uniform" LOL(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Gern, No disrepect, but having come from a troop with a uniforming culture that was instilled by the youth, not the adults, a uniform was expected, and was seen as part of Scout Spirit. Grant you we did make allowances for those of use who couldn't afford everything BSA, heck I was the Scout who did all BORs save his Eagle, in green military pants ( took me 3 years to get the offical ones and they were hand me downs), but it was instilled in us by our PLs and SPL to "look your best" and "Don't embarras the patrol" Also I remember as a scout being asked about the uniform, what it meant, etc, by the PL form one of the other patrols on my 2nd and !sdt class BORs So while some may view the wearing of a uniform as adding requirements, for others, it is expected as a show of scout spirit.

capt. the reason why people are paying top dollar for them is that national can't keep stick of them. They went through 50,000 of them in 3 weeks! I know my local distributor cannot keep them in stock!

On a different note, What you think about changing venturing's loop colors to maroon?

Emb, My circa 1987 Leadership Corps book does mention the green and red combination. I say circa 1987 as that is when the round LC patch came out and that is shown in the book instead of teh LC trapezoid. I'll double check tonite for you. Also sorry about the confusion. Yep this guy is a serious collector/historian. You may have seen him at NOAC as I believe he was on the museum staff. That or OATC exhibit staff as he is one of the Founding Fathers of OATC.

I myself also thought it was the button loop, but I was told it's actually the bottom of the patche; the holes are tearing off.

BP, GREAT QUESTION! Here are my thoughts. 1) If we did go away with must having uniform pants like venturing, I would still mandate a color. I have a vivid memory of a British Cub wearing Bright purple pants with their uniform jersey. 2) National should still make offical pants for pros and old fogeys who want them. 3) note however that the Brits now have uniform pants, but the shirts are now Polos with the necker. 5) BRING BACK FULL SIZE NECKERS AND MAKE THEM REQUIRED (caps for emphasis) The full size necker is one of the definitive Scouting uniform items worldwide. It appears that those associations doing away with traditional uniforms are keeping the necker though. BSA has done the opposite. Then again I was told that national is bringing full size neckers out next year

EMB, Sorry for the bass pro/ Cabela's msitake. Yep I was there for the beginning of venturing too. heard abotu the change and met the director in May, and was at the all hands in August when it was unleashed. Also one of the presenters on venturing at the meeting was in my council. She's a different story though But yes there were no shorts created until August 1999, with the pants comign out in August 2000, 1 and 2 years respectively after venturing came about. BUT if you talk to the UP, and national supply, they are ADAMANT that only the offical supply division pants/shorts/switchbacks are to be worn with the venturing green shirts. Me personally I got my original shorts and pants bought in 1998, and still have the offical pants I got on sale, whcih I rarely wear. The official shorts I was required to buy for my job, working in supply, have long been placed in the garbage.

EMB, The guy was wearing a VINTAGE uniform, circa 1985. At that time Scouts could wear the green shirt, SCOUTS BSA strip (the shirt came with two strips unattached, one saying Exploring BSA and the other SCOUTS BSA) and was authorized for older scouts and leaders in troops with the red loops. teh guy is our resident historian and always wears vintage uniforms. Rumor is he trying to get a vintage 1910s uniform, or reproduction, for the council's regional jamboree. You are correct that current uniform regs state that that is not an option with the current Venturing Shirt. I put part of the blame for the problem on national for naming a program after a very similar one in use at the time of creation which appropriated the unit designation. We had a very nice discussion with the national director of Venturing on the problems we could see from calling the splinter group Venturing and the units Crews when Venture Crews already existed when they replaced the Leadership Corps program in the 1990s. But aslo part of the probloem is people don't follow regs. But I admit those red loops look alot better than the "emerald" ones on the uniform. Wish they would change those loops to maroon though, which was one of the proposed venturing colors when it came out. heck I got venturing logos in Maroon and Gold on software national gave me back in the day me.

I personally would like to see the red and whites return for ALL program areas. As someone stated there has been a lack of guidance and confusion onthe national level, heck just look at p. 14 of the current catalog to see the Web. in tan and green numbers. And I was royally ticked off after buying the tan and green numbers and trained strip and found out a week later that they were going to tan and red numbers, and then a week or two after that goign back to tan and red numbers and trained strip. I went ahead and got another set sicne #1 i'll be with cubs for a LONG time and #2 I needed to set the example. Way my unit is handling the situation is simple: you keep the numbers you have on,and advising those who get new uniforms to get the R/Ws.

be adviswed that the first batch of patches has been recalled, or at least that wis what the local council told me when I went to buy a few more. The new batch will be coming out in Dec, at least acccording to Scoutstuff.org. Looks Like I got myself a collector's item

A few comments I need to make. #1. I don't think an Eagle candidate needs their hand held during the process. I do think they need to have a discussion on what to expect, preferably done by a peer who has been through the process. #2. I think the Eagle candidate should be doing all the leg work on verifying his information, getting the signatures for his application and service project, etc. #3 I also think that if any problems do occur with council records he should deal with it. However after my expereince with my old council, Iknwo how some folks treat youth and can understand when an adult needs to get involved. #4 I do not see where having a complete uniform is adding to the requriements. It's part of Scout Spirit, and gives the Eagle candidate to proudly show what he has done to the EBOR. Again having a full uniform at an EBOR is the NORM in every district and council I've been in for the past 27 years. #5 I see ALL BORs as a way to prepare youth for the realities of life, i.e. college and/or job interviews.

Sunny, Good point and I would love to see the national stats on young Eagles and their activity level in Scouting, whether Boy Scouts or Venturing. But based upon my own observations, I'ld say 80-90% who get eagle early drop out immediately after getting eagle. the 10-20% who stay are usually active in the OA, Venturing, or both. And even then they sometimes succumb to the "'FUMES": perfume and car fumes, within 2-3 years.

Scrin, First Welcome to the boards. now to answer your question. While a uniform is not required, as mentioned previously there are some activities that do require one. here is my take on the uniform policy. Every scout should strive to have a complete uniform BUT SHOULD NEVER BE TURNED AWAY FORM A UNIT ACTIVITY B?C OF ONE! I always say, and told my Tigers last nite, that the most improtant items are the handbook, shirt, patches, neckercheif and slide. Let the scouts EARN their uniform parts by saving allowances, reciving uniform items as christmas and Birthday presents. etc. ALSO 'expereinced" uniforms are AWESOME and can be obtained via ebay, thrift stores, Craigslist, and some unit's uniform closets. Heck my sone is wwearing my old slide and hat.

I don't think anyone would call me a "Parlor Scout" having done 3 fifty milers, worked summer cmap for 6 summers, being extremely active in the OA (Love wearing cammie pants and old T-shirts and takign care of MY camp) yada, yada, yada. But I do beleive there is a time and a place for a full, complete uniform. COHs is one time. BORS is another. PLCs run the troop and can set up the standards they want seen at meetings and what not. So if they want Jeans and a t-shirt for meetings, that's there perogative. If they want complete uniforms, that's their perogative. BUT for the special events they need a full complete uniform. If they are goign on a trip, yep wear the compelte uniform, you'll be surpised at the comments you get. One example was as a scout, the Folks at my church knew I was a scout from seeing me in my uniform a few times at services. Well there was a medical emergency, and guess who got asked to handle it, Me. Why? b/c they saw me in my uniform and remembered I was a scout. 2 weeks ago I was in a grocery after a RU in uniform. Guess what i had so many people coming up to me athanking me for working witht he youth, nice to knwo BSA still exists,etc. encourage proper uniforming and wear a full uniform with pride.

Yep ALL CSs and their leaders wear red on White numbers. It sasy it in the insignia guide and http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/Male_Leader_Checklsit.pdf http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/Male_Leader_Scout.pdf http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/Female_Leader_Checklist.pdf Yes there is major problems with someof the literature. While someone commented what do you expect for $15/year, once upon a time the BSA had methods that avoided these problems, one of which was using specific group of volunteers in the field to review literature before publication

Also let me tell you two stories about racing through the ranks. grant you they are about getting eagle, but the moral can be applied to the CS in question. There were two Eagle Scouts I knew. One Eagle focused on getting Eagle as soon as he could, did everything and got his Eagle at the ripe old age of 13, and then dropped out of the program. Didn't come back to Scouting until his son became a TC. Second Eagle was just as focused on getting Eagle. But there were a few challenges in the way at first, specifically the swimming requirements. But he got his Life by 14, and was well on his way to completing eagle before his 15th birthday, but a few things happened. First he got selected to go through the NYLT course of his time. He had an good experience and learned alot. Then elected into the OA, and had some fun. Then he spent 2 years saving his money to go to a jamboree and do a 50 miler in Canada. Basically he was having a blast and barely got his Eagle. So who had the better Scouting experience? Both are Eagles, but one rushed it through and didn't stop and smell the roses. The other Eagle had fun, had some adventures and had a blast.

Sunny good question. Once upon a time, Webelos was a 1 year program. When they expanded in into the 2 year program, the AOL requirements were changed to the current model. Part of it is so the cub scout will have the maturity to join a troop. Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting atre to very different programs, and some 10.5 y.os, heck some 12 and 13y.o.s I've met were not mature enough to be in the program. As for why the AOL equates to Crossover. originally the AOL was called the WeBeLoS Award, nd it was suppose to prepare you to become a BS. I took a minimum of 6 months to earn,usualy taking almost all nine months of the school year, and when you received it, it was the pinnicle of Cub Scouts and you were fully prepared to become a Boy Scout. Heck when I was coming through, You got AOL, you automatically received the Scout badge unpon Crossingover, and could get the 2 month service requirement for Tenderfoot waived! So yes the purpose is to slow down.

Supply sells them that are really nice that come apart in the center. IF you can find the ferrule, the piece that you can screw and unscrew the two halves of the pole together, you can use a dowel rod from a hardware store to make yourself one.

I believe a review of the application prior to the EBOR is SOP and is used to determine problems wiht paperwork. And Ithionk this came about after 1992. I say that B/C #1 Once I passed my EBOR there were some "challenges" with the dates on some of my advancements. Apparently the dates in my book said one thing, my records at the council office said another. Apparently the registrar at the time just used the date she inputed the info into the system as the date earned. Thats was 1992 However by the time my friend got it in 1995, his application was sent in and rejected prior to the EBOR as according to the council he was only First Class. between the photocopies of his HB and the Advancement Report copies of the troop, we got it squared away. Also i knwo that in my district applications go to the council office PRIOR to the EBOR.

Don't remind me of the "warm body" approach. I had a dis. adv. chair try to deny me my Eagle at the EBOR b/c he did not approve my service project, his predecessor did. Stepped out for their deliberations, was asked "what would you do if we told you you didn't get Eagle?" When I asked why it was stated "Because of your Eagle project, it was done 4 years ago." I stated that no where in the HB was there a timeframe for Eagle projects, other than to be done as a Life Scout, and I wanted to know who I would need to go to to protest this decision as I had met all of the requirements, including the service project. Luckily his predecessor who did sign the paperwork was also on the EBOR. After a second discussion among the EBOR members with me outside the room, I got Eagle.

Emb, While I do not accuse yo of being a "purist," heck you advocate Cabela's over Supply Division gray shorts/pants when a purist would say you must wear Supply shorts/pants, however there are 'purists" aka Uniform Police out there in reference to Venturing.

Beavah, Every unit, district, and council is different. In the troop I grew up in, yes the uniform was an important part of the BOR at all levels. But we were a troop with a uniform culture, so it was the norm. Part of wearing the uniform properly was Scout Spirit. Another part of it wa that it let the BOR members know what POR the scout currently held, if any, what activities he's been on via the temp patch, if any special recognitions had been earned via knots, and with my troop and it's totem, what activities and troop acheivements the scout has done. Another part is that the BOR is a very serious matter, one of the few occasions that a MB sash would be worn to, and we equated it to a job interview. Now grant you there was some lightheartedness involved, but still it was a serious matter and wearing a full uniform was part of that.

YES! Over the past 10 years of marriage my wife and I have had our share of "discussions" about Scouting. And she has known how involved I am since we dated as I was a lowly DE when we met. The key is you MUST have balance. You got to say NO from time to time, and you must step away at times, which can be the hardest thing to do. What has helped tremendously is the fact that now my oldest is a Tiger, and at the moment about 1/3 of the scouting stuff I do, he does too. Once I am completely doen with my OA duties, this Dec if not sooner, it will be alot better. But I'm still doing alot of stuff without him, i.e. CS NCS to serve on DC staff, council's CS outdoor committee, etc. On the flip side, she knows the importance of Scouting. She was a Exploring/Venturing leader (at the time of the switchover), has served on a troop committee, and is resigned to the fact that she WILL be a den leader for son #2, she wanted and got a 1950s Den Mother's Uniform for her B-day this past year. EDITED: Beavah give some great advice.(This message has been edited by eagle92)