Eagle92

They way I have seen it work is that each program area director is over 18 at a minimum, with staff under him usually in the 15-17 range, but sometimes older. The director is the couselor of record and is the one signing off on the requirements. However it is his staff that he trained over the staff weekends and staff week that do the teaching and make the recommendations for signoff. If the director doesn't feel comfortable with a staffer's skills to teach, then that staffer doesn't teach. That said, it sounds as if your council has larger issues. First and foremost is a SE who gets it and a DSS who understands the need to get the best summer camp staff. STAFF are the key to a successful summer camp. I been to a camp that had teh facilities, but staff were not the best and the experience was poor. On the opposite end I went ot a camp that had poor infrastructure, but the staff were excellent, and the troop had an great experience overall. Then you need a dynamic CD who can recruit, motivate, and KEEP a quality staff for three years. The CD is the cornerstone of the camp staff. I've seen firsthand what poor excuse of a CD can do to a excellent staff (one that had an experienced and motivated CD on staff for 7 years and "molded" HIS staff). And I say three years b/c it will take that long to learn and solve problems as well as train newer staff to leave a foundation that needs coninutal building. BUT the first three years are the most difficult Next the SE, DSS, and CD needs to do some talking to the units and find out why they are not coming to camp. If the counci doesn't know what the problem is, how can things be fixed. Then you need to keep the staff happy. Yes the campers are important, but a happy staff means happy campers. Finally you need t promote the changes, promote the changes, and promote the changes some more.

Also let's not forget the 1993 WTC attack and the 2 embassies in Africa that were attacked in the late 1990s. The latter hit kinda close to home as my district commissioner at the time was called in to do some consulting on those two bombings.

A few comments on the link that SSS provided. 1) Those look like actual scouts. 2) Face on the one at the far right holding the blue sheet has the exact expression on his fgace that I had, a " WHAT THE HECK?!?!?!???" expression

Let's not forget the other branches. I know USN and USMC were affected, don't remember how badly but do remember that they cut the number of NROTC scholarships accordingly and I missed out. Also heard USAF lost out some too.

What about the OA boxers they came out with a few yers ago, could we wear them instead of the sash for Class A's?

John, Let's not forget that the US military was "downsized" after Gulf War I. That also has led part of the current manpower challenges.

I do not like it. other than the word SCOUTING, there is really no relationship whatsoever to the the BSA.

I disagree with the boonie hat, the expedition hat would be a better choice IMHO.

The reason for the collarless shirt is to make the necker mandatory again. The necker is one of the few items, the WC and the campaign hat, that are universally recognized as scouting related.

I am going to paly Devil's Advocate here, but I HAVE seen some Webelos dens spoon feeding, and have seen a few new scouts get frustrated over how a boy-run troop is done. BUT 99.99999999999% it is the parents, esp. the CS leaders that crossover, that have the hardest time. Usually the boys adapt and overcome. But the former CS leader, after years of being trained to be incharge, plan, etc, has much to " unlearn" as Yoda would say. They usually get it in a few months, but I have seen some adults not get it, and they and their sons drop out of Scouting all together. Hopefully when oldest is a BS I will remember me saying this now, and that I be able to make the transitioning between CS leader ( i'll still have 2 in CS) and BS leader alot easier.

Lisa hit it on the head, the loops ARE really for the adults. Think about it, CS wear blue uniforms until they get to the Webelos level, then they have the option of the BSA uniform or the CS uniform. Either way they still wear a plaid necker and hat that differentiates them from the BS. Venterers have the green and grey uniform as well as their leaders. The only overlap with the Tan and Green uniform is the Adult leaders. CS and BS leaders wear the tan and green uniform with the loops and the unit color numbers being different. And the Cncl/nationla folks can wear either the Tan and green or the green and tan, but the loops tell what level: silver for cncl and gold for national. So I think it's safe to say we can doa way with loops, which would save some $

Blance, I think John may be deliberately exaggerating the situation. You see part of a DC's respobnsibility is to accompany his or her den on all activities, esp. Webelo DCs as they should be outdoor experts and can be a very big help. Heck I know of DCs who basically planned an entire trip with the WDLs anf all they and the parents did was sit back and relax. HE organized the, like a patrol, created a duty rooster win which everything was split up, came up with activities, etc. etc. So by not allowing a DC to accompany his den, it may appear to others that the DC isn't doing his job properly and that you do not feel comfortable with his leadership and outdoor abilities.

Ok I'll give it a go. I Agree with the collarless route, REAL neckers, flat pockets, no loops, unified patch design,dropping a few patches, and almost everything else suggested. However I can tell you the WC will be going nowhere as that has been "suggested" by WOSM that everyone wear it. No matter what though I'll wear it as I earned it in 1987, and would have earned it a 2nd time in 1989 if WOSM hadn't made that suggestion. I do disagree with the all khaki route, then we would look Navy CPOs and officers. I say stick with the traditional olive. In addition to keeping the utilitarian cargo pockets, compared to ODL pants mods 1 and 3, I would suggest zippered legs for easy on easy off. Also bring back knee socks.

Even though the other troop looks great to you, I would still A) visit this troop and any other in the area, and B) let the boys decide. One pack my OA chapter did the AOL/Crossover ceremony for had folks crossing over to 3 different troops: the feeder and two other troops. And if the SM of the troop that hasn't been responsive until recently asks, tll them the truth: that the other troop showed more enthusiasm and was more welcoming to the Webs.

Concur with Sctldr, a DC is a BS or Venturer, doesn't need a parent, and would be considered part of the den leadership. Definately bring him as he WILL be a valuable outdoor resource, esp. if your WDLs have little to no outdoor skills.

THANK YOU!

If memory serves, there is now a separate Climb on Safety Instructor certification, andn COPE has little to no involvment with the climbing side of things, at least that is what I've been told. On another note, unless things changed in G2SS, you can go shoulder high without a harness and ropes, as long as you have spotters.

Stupid question,but here it goes, if NYLT and WB21C are so similar, why would someone who went through NYLT as a youth, whether as a Scout or Venturer, want to go through WB21C when they become a Scouter or over 18 Venturer?(This message has been edited by eagle92)

So are they gonna remake it along the lines of the movie, or go more towards the book?

Also learned it with the pinky, but as mentioned it was changed in the 1970s, and if memory serves, that was b/c WOSM requested it. Seems that if you go back to BP, it was just the left hand shake, no pinky, and that is how scouts all over do it still. So I doubt BSA will change it back.

When my old troop did the USS ALABAMA, we usually played some type of of walk around, stressing the WALK, like Capture the Flag, Axis and Allies, etc. Another time when a troop I was with had two active duty personnell in it, a Navy CW02 and a USCG CWO4, we actually had a tour of the ALABAMA with them. That was a great expereince. My recommendation would be to do some reasearch on the ALABAMA, especially her armaments. A good resource for the 40mm Bofors and 20mm Oberlikion (sp) guns would be the USS KIDD website. They also have a virtual tour that may help with some areas of the ALABAMA, i.e. ship's head and the "infamous red seat," officers' country, the 'goat locker," etc. Now if you are willign to do a little drive, USS KIDD in Baton Rouge, LA not only allows folks to sleep aboard, but also do movies AND tours, including a few areas that are normally off limits due to timing concerns, i.e. the engine and boiler rooms. Price is VERY affordable, better than Patriot's Point, and it is a blast. Then again I may be prejuidice: my troop did that destroyer several times and i worked there when I was in grad school as a tour guide, including many an overniter.

With Troop Leader Training if memroy serves, covers specific PORs and the trained patch is worn ONLY for the POR that you underwent training for. NYLT is the youth equivilent of WB21C, and is advanced training.

Ideally, the scout should decide what unit to join. And he should be the one asking the questions at the unit visit. But I also noted that parents should do their homework as well, and the parents need to find out what unit fits their son's needs, basically narrowing it down to a few choices. Sorry I wasn't as clear on that one. I think 3 is a good number, but I admit that when I started looking for a pack, I did narrow it down to two packs, and I looked at the whole package when i did so, i.e. the pack the troop, and venturing crew if available, to narrow my choices. I also looked at how my son would fit in, especially since he does have a minor speech disability, and one of the units had a leader with the same problem. So i really liked the fact that my son had a leader to look up. Unfortunately that leader is no longer with the Pack as of Monday nite as he crossed over to the troop.

I'm going to offer an opionion, and we all know what opinions can be like When you go into the local council office, talk to the DE and get info on the state of the district. Depending upon your other committments: work, family, school, etc. as well as your expereince and training with the BSA, you may be needed to help out as an ASM or ACM with a unit, or more than likely asked to help out on the disctrict committee. And that is the route I went. I stayed on the district level until oldest becasme a TC becasue i didn't 1) show any partiality to any specific unit until the time came for oldest to be a TC, esp. since I'm a previous DE and worked with most of the leaders still active sicne my time and 2)I got to know the strengths and weaknesses of each unit and was able to get feel for my son's fit into each unit.

While we did go to Jambo, we only were there a few days. It may have been for unit insurance purposes, but I honestly don't know how or why it happened, I was a scout at the time and was only concerend about raising money to go and having fun One thing that did to mind is this: Is you son in the OA? If so there is a new program call OA MENTOR and is designed for expereinced scouts to help those units just starting, or needing help. THAT mey be soemhting to look into. And when isay new, I beleive ti came out this past year.