Eagle92

E, You are VERY fortunate in that your council committee is not a pawn of the SE. Wish my council committee would have fired a SE or DFS in the past, but they had manipulated the system in their favor. Lots of long time upper echelon volunteers who voice contrary opinions were removed, and some quit outright in order to not be affiliated with some of the decision. When those two were promoted and left, a big celebration by these folks ensued. The bulk of my experiences, 4 (5 if you include district mergers) different district committees in 4 councils, and a unit level ASM in a 5th council, has been as BP desricbed.

Abel, Do some folks manipulate it, yes they do. Part of the problem is that the CORs as a whole (there are a few exceptions like yourself)either are not doign their job, or do not realize that being ont eh district and council committees is part of their job. Heck I didn't realize a COR was part of the council committee until AFTER I left the profession. I will say this, not everyone is manipulating the system, or if they are they are cleaning shop so to speak. I know of one SE who is putting front line scouters on various council committees in order to meet the needs of the youth. Only complaint I have with him is that he wasn't the SE I worked for; I wish I would have worked for him as a DE.

In my current district, only time a UI is done is at the Camporees and Webeloree. So most CSs don't get inspected, and I have yet to see a leader inspected. We use the sheets found here. http://scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/forms.aspx When I did the inspection for the BS, I had a copy of the IG and the sheets, just in case we had some challenges about patch location, which we did. I also allowed the scouts to correct their uniforms prior to being inspected. And I had a sewing kit available to help them out. Now as a youth, we had an annual district inspection day. The entire district, CS, BS, and Explorers, met in the historic district of town, and adults (I am assuming UCs, as a youth I didn't really pay attention) went down the den/patrol/crew ranks of each unit and did an inspection using the sheets above. Once you wore finished, you received your patch and pass top the various museums. One thing to remember now is the Cenntennial uniform. When it came out, there was no Insignia Guide or inspection sheets to tell you what to wear and how to wear it. You only got a brochure, WHICH the IG and IS contermanded when they came out 7 months later, i.e. CS and leaders wearing green numbers. ALSO the brochure said you can mix and max elements of the uniforms. So you may very well see Webelos and CS leaders with green numbers, and Scouts with red numbers and knee socks in their Centennial uniforms.

Abel, While the Policies and Procedures state that the Nominating Committee meet and select a slate of officers to be voted on by the dis com for the next year, and that is taught at PDL-1, in reality it is VERY easy for a DE, FD, DFS, or even an SE to manipulate the process of who gets on the dis com and/or council executive board. the DE will "advise" who may be good candidates for whatever position on the dis com. And while it is possible for the dis com to not vote a slate in, usually that doesn't happen. When I was a DE, one of the reasons I got in a bunch of trouble with the SE was b/c I didn't want to change the discom too much b/c they had been doing a good job and had kept the district running for a almost a year without any DE. The changes I tried to implement was getting more members so that no one was wearing two or more hats. SE was adamant about me removing the OA chapter adviser and assoc. adv. b/c they were considered "anti-council." And the reason they were "anti-council": the SE took all the money the lodge set aside for camp improvements and hosting conclave and placed in into FOS without informing the lodge. So when all the bills started coming in, the council refused to pay b/c the lodge didn't have the money in their account. Not a good year and after I left, they were removed, as well as other OA advisers, b/c they complained about the situation.

Good luck with the Flamingos. I know you will get a bunch of good ideas, so here are mine. 1) Discuss with the "natural leader" in the other patrol about switching over and running for PL when the time comes. 2) Have your SPL talk to the struggling PL and really mentor him. have the SPL ask him some questions about how the patrol is doing, what could be done to improve, how they can go about inproving, etc. 3)Reorganize the patrols about 2 weeks before the Webs crossover. that way you have several patrols with expereinced scouts already in place as PL to take in the new scouts. While the NSP is one way of doign things, I personally like splitting them up. BUT whatever you do in the patrol formations, LET THE SCOUTS PICK WHO THEY WANT TO BE WITH. 4) My old troop allowed folks to switch patrols once per year, and thenit was just before one fo the elections, so they did have a vote in the new PL. Usually folks stayed in the same patrol their entire tenure in the troop until they moved up to the Leadership Corps. But sometimes folks did want to switch, or a need for an additional patrol would cause folks to move around. 5) Move the new scouts into the other patrol in order to retain them, and let the Flamingos flounder. This may sound bad, but sometimes patrols and PLs need to fail in order to learn and grow. Good Luck.

BDPT, While I agree with you 99.9999%, there are a few challenges I see to the IG. #1 it does not retain older uniform regs, i.e. older insignia, that can still be worn on the uniform. Good example is those folks wearing an old Leadership Corps patch on the right pocket of their red jac shirts. #2 lack of uniformity with other official BSA publications, see the uniform inpection sheet about ALL CS leaders and female Scout and Venturing leaders being able to wear temp insignia in the jambo spot. And let's not forget the differecnes in info from the Centennial Uniform brochure and the current IG, which leads to #3 Was not printed in time to coinincide with the release of the Centennial Uniform, 5 words: Unit numbers and trained strips. Minor detail, you bet. BUT it ticked alot of folks off, inlcuding yours truly. #4 Is not updated enough to include "newer" insignia, see the post above about what the IG is missing in reference to backpatches. Yes I too believe uniforming is important. And I do wish there was 1 source of uniform information from which all other sources must use. unfortunately that is not the case at this time. Now to get back on topic. Yes I am an Eagle, class of 1992 DEPENDS, if adults wear the patch or not. I say let adults 18-21 wear it, just like their Venturing brethen. BUT at 21, wear the knot. I say that b/c 9/10 of the time, the younger scouts do look up to those older scouts as examples and heros, and seeing that Eagle patch, more so than a knot, does help motivate folks.

Scout, let me rephrase questions to clarify as I may have been to wordy. 1)Since the new outdoor training course combines OWL and IOLS, how will they handle those of us who have taken one course and not the other? 2) How will training staff for the new course be developed since you do have trainers who may have taken one course, say IOLS, without taking the other course, say OWL. And a third question 3) how are you going to get trainers to deal with the Venturing portions, without ever having a required course before? Lots of new things headed our way,and with the addition of MANDATORY TRAINING I beleive alot of headaches too.

Agree with BP on this one. However in my experience, the PTB usually wait until the person's term of office is over, and the nominations committee just doesn't renominate them. I've seen that happen alot. However the one time I know of a District Chair being removed during his tenure, the DC was caught doing something he should not have been doing. THAT little escapade nearly destroyed my district, caused two divorces, and almost sparked a lawsuit due to someone violating a court order to be more than x amount of feet away form another person ata a council banquet. edited: yes the council kept this situation under the rug, for a variety of reasons, of which legal was one of them, but sometimes things are too big.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Well I can't seem to get onto MYSCOUTING.ORG at the moment, but do know some of the same folks who post there post here as well. According to the January 2010 Training Update found here: http://scouting.org/Training/TrainingUpdates.aspx Introduction to Outdoor Skills for Boy Scout leaders is being revised. The new outdoor course will be a one-size-fits-all for Webelos leaders, Boy Scout leaders, and Venturing leaders. Once a person completes the training, it is not necessary to repeat it when they move to another program. BALOO will remain as a training aid as it focuses more on safety than on outdoor skills. Now my question is this: since I do not have Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders training, but have BALOO and IOLS (OK it was really the old SM Fundamentals, I am an old fogey you know ) #1 do I still need to take the Webelos course, or will the IOLS cover that? I ask b/c no one currently in my pack has taken the Webelos training, the one who did crossed over, and the Webelos are jumping at the bit to do some camping. I was told last nite that the pack needs me registered as an AWDL so I can go camping with them, until we get the WDLs that training. Still working with the TCs, but I will be needed to go camping. I told them A) I don't have the OWL training so the Webelos still may not be able to go camping and B) If IOLS is valid for webelos as well, as long as I am on the TP, I am good to go irregardless of my position. Second question: Can I serve on staff for the new training without the OWL training. I ask that one b/c we are a small district AND have a small training cadre. I am lined up to teach BALOO training, and have taught IOLS, but no one in the district teaches OWL.

AWWWW MAN! Don't wanna turn in the UP badge, esp. since I fit 95% of the "...You might me a member of the UP" posts over on Myscouting.org. LOL(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Jeff-o Gotta love the Patrol Method in action. Green bar Bill said it best, "The patrol method is organized chaos."

Understand the skepticism and have no problems with it. The information I was told came from an internal BSA supply document sent to the managers, who told us. Looking up the good ole IG on http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/03.aspx I noticed the following: Jackets and Their Insignia Multicolored jackets in nylon, wool, and poplin are available for optional wear by youth members and adult leaders. The universal emblem should be worn on the left pocket or, in case of a jacket without chest pockets, in the same area. The Philmont bull emblem is especially designed for the red wool jac-shirt to be sewn on the left side above the pocket. On all jackets the Philmont Scout Ranch, Philmont Training Center, or high-adventure base emblems may be worn centered on the right pocket or in the same relative position if there is no pocket. The Order of the Arrow has adopted the jac-shirt as its official jacket, and members may wear the �6-inch national Order of the Arrow patch centered on the back. The large Philmont, NESA, jamboree, National Camping School, Scout�master Award of Merit, and international par�ticipant emblems are approved to be worn on the back of the jacket. Only one such emblem may be worn at a time. The Venture/Varsity �letter may be worn on the center of the right side of the red or blaze nylon or poplin jacket. In all cases, the lightweight jacket is an alternate for the jac-shirt, and this insignia may be worn on it in the same way. What I find interesting is that the passage omits the Loon and Shark or Conch of N Tier and and Seabase for wear in place of the bull. Also there is no mention of the 50 Miler backpatch, NOAC backpatches, the HA backpatches etc. I don't see that this passage gets updated as it should. if the husband is unconfortable wearing it, then by all means take it off. Me personally as long as it is 1 patch on the back, I'ld be ok with it. So do I need to turn in my UP badge now?

And the wrong size to boot. Oh wait, they are the standard size, sorry.

2 lives of a hero is the best Bio, written by GBB. The Jeal book is interesting, but I wouldn't put my faith into his thesis.

I am of mixed emotions on this topic. On one hand I think having the parent work with the youth is awesome and have enjoyed working with my son on his advancement. Alot of the TC stuff is stuff we already do. HOWEVER keeping up with TC handbook is challenging at times, and I am the TCDL On the flip side, I do have TCs who are either in single parent homes, or are joint custody situations where the parent changes almost weekly. Those are the ones i'm having to do all the advancement work at the meetings for, and it is a good portion of the den.

Red Feather also gave some great advice. Esp. setting the bar high. One thing I would add is that once it is set, you reinforce it anytime you can, and get the youth to as well. When I joined my old troop, the bar was set as part of the Investiture Ceremony with the comment upon being given the troop necker " Many scouts have worn this neckerchief before you and none had disgraced it, do not be the first." (ok I still get the goosebumps still even writing this line.) And whenever new PLs or SPL were elected, the outgoing person would always make the comment about not screwing up HIS patrol or troop.

The biggest advantage is insurance coverage. Another advantage is that they can stay at scout camps while traveling.

If memory serves, the patrol method was not as big a deal with the BSA like elsewhere. That is until a certain Dane began working for the BSA and after meeting a Mr. West in an elevator. Gotta love GBB, and glad I had HIS last BSHB as mine.

Nike, I'll apologize in advance b/c i am one of those who do button the top button on my Centennial Shirt before flipping it under. I've tried and tried with it unbuttoned, but with the "Elvis Collar" it just does not look or feel right. Now on my ODL and Venturing uniform, darn tootin I don't button the top button. Ans yes Short I know the irony. Spent 6 summers on camp staff.

CT, When the Jumbo Rank came out in 2000 or 2001 (dates are getting fuzzy with age), they were authorized for wear on the back of jackets. There was a supply memo on that b/c the jumbo patches started out as a custom job with one store that became so popular national picked up on the idea adn made it a stock item.

Beav, I think part of the problem is that society is trying to make childhood last longer. Look at how some psychologists say are not fully adults until age 25 based upon brain scans (sorry can't cite source). Look at certain children's medical programs that cover folks until age 25, ie SCHIP. Heck look at some of the 20 and 30 somethings who still act and dress like teenagers with no personal responsibility or accountability. Grant you I had fun prior to being turning 25. BUT I was also supporting myself and putting myself through school. And I while I lived at home during college, I couldn't wait to get out and be on my own. I know folks who are in their late 20s and 30s, but are still living at home. I moved out 1 day after graduating. Only moved back in breifly when I was between jobs (3 months) and when I was looking for a house while the wife remained behind (1 month).

I was at the 1998 NLTC, aka "All Hands Conference," that brought out Venturing, and can tell you that ALL of the ideas mentioned by Shortridge, save the OA Lodge and Quest Award ones, were told to DEs to use in marketing Venturing.

An aside. When I taught SM Specific, I would always incorporate the Ideal SM position, aka the "Al Bundy:" SM on a camping trip, sitting around the campfire in his camp chair drinking coffee and only asking ithe SPL if things are coming along nicely with a few questions. Then goes back to drinking coffee. Sorry but it's funnier when seen.

Sorry about that KSA= Knowledge, Skills, and Abilities. ECM= Executive Committee Meeting, a term used generically in my old lodge for the lodge officers.

1) Finding the right SM and CC who will be able to control the adults and train the youth to run the program. In reading the 3rd ed. SMHB, I do beleive that a new unit, or one reestablsihing the Patrol method, will need an adult run program for 6-12 months. BUT during that time, the SM needs to be training his leaders y showing them what to do initially, then slowly backing away. Finding the SM who can do that is hard. And finding the right CC who can deal with the complaints about the "organized chaos" of the patrol method amongst parents and leaders who don't get it is also key to supproting the SM. 2) EDUCATE THE ADULTS, ESP. FORMER CS LEADERS! (caps for emphasis) no disrespect to CS leaders, hey I am one after all , But I've found the hardest group to get use to the PM are former CS leaders. My theory is that they are so use to being the leader, that they have a hard time letting go. Hopefully I won't fall into that trap. 3) Train the youth. Yep they catch on pretty quick, but you still need to train and guide them. 4) Let the older scouts do the work. one of my biggest pet peeves, see my thread for the rant, is not letting those older scouts with the KSAs do the work. Maybe we have a hard time keeping the older scouts b/c we don't give them teh responsibility to pass on what they know to the younger scouts?