Eagle92

I admit I do have an attachment to the troop. Several friends have been leaders in it. I have served as an MBC for several of their scouts. When I needed Den chiefs for day camp and for my den, they were the ones that provided the best help. And I can go on. Heck when I did IOLS in January, 2 of their scouts were on staff. Grant you, their dads were also on staff, but when I was talking about using youth on staff, their dads loved it and "voluntold them" Liek they needed to be told they're camping. Any of the older scouts that I worked with and knew I would trust with my life or my son's if things were to hit the fan in the outdoors. Don't think I can say it with the groups I saw this past weekend. I will say this, hope springs eternal. The soon to be CM and I had a very brief discussion about the weekend, and he pointed out some of the challenges that I saw without me mentioning it. He has a few ideas on how to help out, AND when his son moves up to Boy Scouts, there is no younger sons like in my situation. The troop changed in 10 months. Since they have had challenges getting adult to take them camping, AND since Webelos can camp as a den on their own, We may be inviting them to a few trips.

That's the problem, I don't have the time to commit as I am stuck in Cubs for at least 7 more years. And trust me, I was reminded of the fact that I was asked to be SM this weekend, and I think that is why I as concerned as I am. I have tried my darnedest to help train the adults. When I found out they were getting a new SM, I rushed through the approval process to put on an IOLS since we hadn't had one in the district for about 2 years. I promoted heavily and personally invited their leaders since one ASM's son was in my den at the time. Only the SM showed up and the comment I was told was that "it's too cold to camp" was made by the other leaders..heck I had more leaders show up out of council than from my council, let alone my district. When I saw on their FB postings that they were focusing on MBs, I asked about it, and was told essentially that MBs were what the Scouts wanted at meetings, and Scouting needs to change with the times as the SM was told at training. Hence the thread a few months ago on that. But in talkging to two scouts, it's group work on the MBs as the younger kids goof off. When it appeared that the new parents were doing the meeting planning and they were not camping on a regular basis as they use to I started posting Green Bar Bill Quotes. I also talked to some of the older scouts the past two weeks to try and resolve the matter, but it looks like part of the matter is the adults.. More later.

DG, My position this weekend was "DAD." I had to step down as the DL for this group to be a TCDL for middle son. Prior to being a DL, I've been in a bunch of positions: ASM, Explorer AA, Venturing AA, Sea Scout ??? (don't ask, all I know is I was on the charter) etc. So I know how things can get things. But trust me, this was the worst I've seen things. And I've been telling the parents that the Patrol Method can seem like "organized chaos," and explained how we can allow the kids to make mistakes and learn. But again this is the worse I've seen a troop; worse than when I camped with this troop many years ago after they just started and were getting organized. At least then they were all green, no really experienced scouts yet, and everyone was learning. And worse than my BROWNSEA 22 Patrol which spent one nite up to 1:30AM cleaning dishes and really didn't come together as a patrol until the last nite. So I am not exaggerating things. if anything I think I am under describing the problems. Funny thing is, I took one of the parents to visit another troop that may be closer to where his son is moving with mom and step-dad. We were there a little while talking about scouts, trips, views on advancement, and good restaurants and as we talked, their patrols were coming in. Dad said the leaders seemed nice, but what impressed him was seeing the patrols coming in and getting to work right away with dinner without anyone telling them to. That and the number of alumni who came out to help run various events after being out of the troop 2, 6, 8 years.

'732, I think a lot of work is more like it. And to be honest I think it will more of getting an SM who will mentor more AND more importantly keeping the parents away and allowing the kids to grow up. A few cooments. 1) No one had enough propane. For whatever reason, they are using the large propane tanks that you can use trees with and the xlarge one pot burners used for tailgaiting. Don't know why they don't use the campstoves that they have, but all cooking was done on large burners. And the supplies were disposable cutlery, plates, bowls, and paper towels. 2) I know where you are coming from and normally would agree with ya. Esp. since modern tents are easy to move. But it was raining, and the threat of worse rain coming was a possibility. So I can cut a little slack for Friday. But would have moved them Saturday. 3) Agree with you, let them suffer the loss of activity/free time under normal circumstances. Especially since they had 1:45 to cook eggs in a bag (one patrol) and oatmeal (second patrol). problem was everyone was goofing off and no one was cooking, getting water, etc. Trust me I tried my darnedest to not butt in but let the SPL do his job, hence me walking away during this. I have a feeling that the SM got involved as the adults had the same Eggs in a bag breakfast as the kids. I mean how long does it take to boil water and either A) drop in you bag of eggs or B) poor boiling water into you disposable bowl for oatmeal and disposable cup for hot cocoa? 4) Yes different troop for different folks. But what was disappointing was not only have I talked up this troop in the past, our den chief came from this troop, he's the Eagle who will leave for a crew after his ECOH, and he talked it up too. And the troop has made a 180 degree turnaround within the past 10 months. Instead of camping, working on basic outdoor skills, etc. they have cancelled campign trips and meetings are focused on Eagle required MBs. Kinda interesting to have a patrol with everyone save the Guide as only a Scout, not even earning Tenderfoot within the past 10 months, but all have 4 eagle required MBs. 5)I agree with you that the parents should not be interacting with the Scouts, but feel the SPL and older scouts should be dealing with the scouts and the SM and ASMs do the mentoring, coaching, and advising of the SPL. But with the SM dealing with his son, the SPL not doing anything, and seeing how the parents have intervened, it gets to the point where you get so frustrated, you get involved. And believe me, I tried to get the SPL to do something for some time before saying the heck with it. 6) I agree with you 110% on this one, Having folks stay until 18 and beyond is a very good sign. heck having them stay irregardless of getting Eagle or not is a good sign. And this troop did have folks who stayed in after 18 and/or leaving for college. Not many as it is a relatively new troop, about 6 years old, but a few. Unfortunately they are not hanging around anymore.

For those who have read some of my posts on the challenges that Ive read and heard about in regards to the troop affiliated with my pack, if this past weekend is the norm, the problems are worse than I expected. I am placing this in Patrol Method because I think the bulk of the problem lies in the lack of it being used. Camporee was this weekend, the Webelos were invited, and it was a major Charlie Foxtrot from the get go. Yes I know the Patrol Method is messy. Yes I know kids will make mistakes and learn from them. but this is beyond that. 1 day prior to camporee, I found out that 1 patrol hadnt even done their menus for the weekend. And forget about the duty roster, that same patrol didnt have one at all, and the other patrol had one but didnt follow it. SM told me that the troop will be meeting at the CO at a specific time, and leave at a specific time. Now he did tell me he would not be there as he was going straight to camp from work. I thought no problem, ASMs will be there. Well I show up, about half the troop is there, no adult leaders are there, and the parents are looking to me to tell them what to do. Ask what is normally done and am told, they usually just meet at the campground whenever. To make it more interesting, all information handed out to the leaders state the Scouts will be backpacking to 1 mile with their gear. Kids, or more specifically parents, didnt know that, so people are not prepared. Finally get to the camp and the other half of the troop is there already waiting for the group that went to the CO to show up and hike in. Finally get to the campsite, and instead of separating into patrols, its a hodgepodge with some 4 man tents only having 1 person in them and the patrols are all mixed up. The trailer is an unorganized mess that they then spend 2 hours fixing. During the cleaning they realize they do not have enough propane for their stoves for the weekend. Also the patrols are missing some supplies. SM goes out of camp to get propane and missing supplies for the patrols, only to miss the SPL and SMs Meeting. While talking with friends Friday nite, find out that the campsite we are in was not the one we were assigned, and in fact the SM just had the trailer dropped off in it and took it over. Saturday morning between campwide revile and flag raising, I had to leave several times to keep from acting like the stereotypical CS leader. Instead of getting the cooking and cleaning over and done with right away, the patrols lollygagged with scouts wanting to play with the campfire, not wanting to do their assigned chores, or for the patrol with no duty roster, arguing over who is doing what. Long story short, both patrols were about 10 minutes late for flag raising and opening announcements with some scouts still eating their eggs in a bag breakfast as they walked up. Because they missed announcements, and also Im betting the SPL didnt pay attention at the meeting the nite before, one patrol waited about 2 hours before going to another event. And to my knowledge they didnt complete one of the events. Then again, the patrol which the Webelos were suppose to shadow and when in camp help them do some of the camp chores so the Webelos could get a feel of what life in a Boy Scout patrol was like, forgot about us after lunch Not only did the Webelos help out, they literally forgot about us. And then there was lunch. Lunch. was an OA fundraiser: a NC pigpicking. Ok not everyone eats pork. My son and I dont, and we made plans for lunch. But one of the Scouts in the troop is Muslim and cannot eat it. Neither the patrol nor he made provisions for him, instead his grandmother stopped by and dropped off Chinese takeout. How the heck are Scouts suppose to learn if parents and guardians do everything? An believe it or not, the parents of the Boy Scouts did more interfering than the Webelos parents, at least until we Webelos parents had had enough, more on our interference in a minute. Boy Scout parents were pantomiming how to do things in one competition. The SM was telling one patrol that included his son what to do for another event. And one patrol had the PLs dad cooking their dinner while the rest of them played. It got so bad that one parent told me he would not allow his son to join the troop even if they were not moving out of town. And I dont know what happened after dinner as I had to leave and do some OA things for the campfire, but things like cleaning did not get done with one patrol. It was after the campfire that I and another Webelos parent decided that if the Boy Scouts wanted to act like a bunch of Cub Scouts, we would treat them like a bunch of Cub Scouts. We were doing KP for the adults and heard a loud boom from the trailer. Someone fouled it all up and no one wanted to admit who it was. As I mentioned it took 2 hours in the rain to fix it the nite before, and worse weather was a possibility so after several attempts to get the SPL to do his job as the SM was at the leaders' meeting, I and the other parent ended up taking over. We both had had enough. I got everyone in the troop save the SMs son who was a problem child all weekend fixing the the trailer. The other Webelos parent got everything ready for the two of us to wash but the cleaning pans. When the scouts got them out of trailer for us, they were disgusting, as if they havent been clean in ages. He had to get them to rinse out the pans, but instead of bring them back, they put them in the trailer soaking wet. The pans had so much water in them, they WDL probably poured out 8-10 ounces of water. Since that patrol still had stuff to clean, but hadnt gotten any water ready, He told them to go ahead and use our water when we were finished. When we were done I had to remind them they had stuff left from dinner to clean which resulted in arguments on who was to do what. I finally had to settle the matter. I admit I left early. Son saw a tree limb fall which sparked a panic among the 3 Webelos moms there. This lead to others, both Webelos and Boy Scout parents leaving early with their kids. Simple solution would have been to move folks to the shelter, which eventually they did after I packed up and ready to leave. I admit didn't think of it, part of the reason was the shelter was a mess and part was I don't know how much I could have taken. Part of me regrets leaving, but part of me was glad b/c I was so frustrated. I am not looking forward to camping with them again. I do see potential with some of the older scouts, but they too are getting frustrated. The soon to be Eagle told me point blank that once the paperwork come back from national and he has his ECOH, he is quitting the troop, joining the summer camp crew as his primary unit, and doing OA AIA. Another Scout told me that when he gets Eagle, he may be around some, depending on soccer and other extracurricular. But after this weekend, I saw the frustration in his face this weekend. And the one I saw with the most potential, is ready to quit now. He is tired of the entire situation. Sorry for the long vent, but needed to get it off the chest, and the wife has already stated after listening to part of this that she doesn't want to hear anymore and to join another troop when the time comes.

Dean and 2Cub, SE was following national policy, and had no choice but to remove. And yes it did cost us an outstanding volunteer, as well as a future one: her son. The problem is this, in today's environment if she was to remain, we would get into all kinds of criticism. And I admit I am torn in this situation. I know the scout is a liar, heck he lied about me giving him permission to go off site after hours at a national event and thankfully I had 2 other adults with me and he had 3 scouts with him to state otherwise, but in the absence of evidence what are we to do? If we keep accused leaders without evidence of innocence we lose, and if we remove leaders without evidence of guilt we lose. In my opinion the safety of the youth is the #1 priority, hence I would remove the leader in the above situation. Thankfully the son stayed in long enough to get his Eagle, which was only a few months after the situation occurred. She was able to attend the council banquet as a parent. But I was told it got interesting when they asked for all the past Silver Beaver recipients to stand, be recognized, and to show the audience the quality of the Silver Beaver recipients, and she stood up. An aside: I know of one troop that will not allow female leaders to attend camp outs unless two of them are going. I do not know their reasoning, whether they are misinterpreting YP rules or it's a CO rule, but I bet it's to prevent something like this form happening.

I wish I could wear one! Luckily I got 3 excuses to go now. Darn tooting wear that thing!

Beav, While the public files now released, which are 30-50 years old and were under a much different set of standards, may be true, I know for a fact that just the accusation will get an adult kicked out nowadays. Grant you it's anecdotal, but I knew a very well respected leader have her membership revoked because a "scout" accused her of making a pass at him. In this instance I use the term "scout" because the young man in question had a history of lying in order to get out of major trouble. Leader caught him after hours around the female shower house, but because it was a "he said, she said" situation, she had her membership revoked. I was told police did investigate, but there was no evidence. Still had membership revoked.

Been thinking about my reply. Want to apologize in my tone as I was extremely angry when I read Eng.'s post, and this issue is very personal for me for several reasons. I could have been more courteous in my reply. Again I want to apologize and reword my response. Parents have many opportunities to get to know the leaders: volunteering, attending events as a parent, helping at functions, etc. In fact in one document in the files, the question of "Where the other adults(parents and leaders) at?" was raised. One of the things about Scouting is that we teach Scouts what to do so they can become independent and do not have to rely on adults for help in emergencies. From teaching kids what to do when lost as a Tiger, to being able to rescue someone using skills learned in Lifesaving and First Aid Merit Badges, Skills are learned and there are hundreds of stories about Scouts making rescues. Just read the Scouts in Action series in BOYS' LIFE. And of course my two examples above. As for Scouts not being able to defend themselves, while I concede that may be possible with the youngest Scouts: Tigers, Wolves, etc; we do try to train them in the Buddy system and YP in an attempt to prevent them from getting in the situations, as well as what to do when it does occur. Unfortunately Pedophiles are attracted to youth programs, just look at the Califiornia Swimming situation and Penn State. BSA has placed safeguards in since the late 1910s, and have improved them as time went on. The standards of our society have changed and the methods used have changed as well. A lot of what we are reading is 30-50 years old. In regards to not calling in the authorities, I stated what happened in the UK, and although I was not a victim as I was an adult at the time, that situation has left an indelible mark on me. I HATE PEDOPHILES! People have wondered why I have such a great hatred for them, and when I tell them the UK story, they understand. Further I can tell you personal expereince that getting someone kicked out of the camp and reported to authorities is very hard on you both physically and emotionally, especially when it's a leader in your own unit. You become persona non grata within the community and the charter organization. I was fortunate in that I left that area after reporting due to a job, so being a pariah didn't affect me as much. But even if I was was staying and knew the response I was going to get, I would do it again in a heartbeat.

OUTSTANDING! I hope copies are goign to the National WWII Museum as they have a project of collecting Vet's oral histories as well as possibly the state archives. One Eagle I know did the same thing, except not just only WWII vets but WWI through Vietnam.

Eng, May I respond? You all have to admit that we non-participants take a tremendous leap of blind faith turning our boys over to you for days or even weeks at a time with no communication. We don't know anything real about you. Only what you portray when you are in uniform. You can get involved in the program even in a non-camping support role. That will give you the opportunity to know leader. And the same can be said for other non Scouting program like baseball, karate, football ad nauseum We know that in an critical situation, you are our boy's only hope of survival. HORSEHOCKEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Properly trained scouts are just as good, and sometimes even better than adults who don't know squat. My life was saved by some scouts recognizing I had hypothermia. When I was helping out at an accident that involved a possible spinal injury, an adult wanted to remove the helmet. Luckily other adults with medical expereince were there screaming "NO!" at the same I did when the adult with no training when he mentioend that. We know that our boy's cannot defend themselves from you. Again I think you have little faith in the youth. While that may eb the case with Cub age kids, and that is my worse nightmare, the older kids I think may be able to hold their own. We know that there are pedophiles among you. We don't know who they are, or how much contact they have with our boys. Just like in sports and other youth programs We also know that, in general, none of you will turn over (to the police) any of your brethren that might be molesting our boys. That when given the choice, you will more than like protect your organization rather than our boys. You've been doing it this way for 100 years. two comments, 1)Do you really want to go there with me? I had to deal with this in the UK in when I was responsible for taking care of a cub scout pack and keeping them occupied while the authorities dealt with a perv and his victims. You really don't want to go there with me. 2) Same could be said for Penn State, CA state swimming, and a host of other sports programs. I don't know what BSA will (or can) do to reverse this. As a private organization, you could have done anything you wanted. Others have mentioned how to reverse this bad publicity. I don't want my boy in Scouts. But it's not my decision to make. Yes we know. But A) can you talk to your other half about your feelings, and more importantly B) what does the step-son have to say about it; does he want to stay in or not. (Ironically, I have not read a single post where anyone with the SM or ASM badge has said ... "the next time I even hear of something like this, I'm going to the Police, because that's the right thing to do, BSA protocols be damned.") You are now hearing it from me. I will report it. Depending upon the situation, it may be after I beat the crap out of the perv, but the police will be notified.

2nd, The SM assigns the MBC, not committee members. And they are a PITA. Again I've seen units use the requirement books, the MACSCOUTER.com workbooks. etc.

My understanding is that National is standardizing UoS courses, and that is one of the topics. The problem I have discovered is even if you train the leaders correctly, teaching them what PM is and trying to drill it into their brains, they still might ignore you.

You don't want to split by levels, i.e. Tiger and Wolves v. Bears and Webelos. When the new pack split form ours, the new CM took half of our pack: ALL of the Bears and a smattering of Webelos and Wolves. Having a big gap in the bears caused issues later on.

Depends on nit culture and the MBC. Most of the units I've been with never used blue cards. You used your BSHB and/or the Requirements Book for sign offs. Now there is a push to use the blue cards to the point that it is required by the G2A. Also an MBC can count prior work if he wants to. Most of the time with very few exceptions they do.

We used to have a "Pack Cook Crew" with their pig cooker do the cooking. Did Saturday Dinner and Sunday Breakfast. When they moved up to Boy Scouts, while we tried to continue doing that, we had challenges. I know I organized one event's meals, only to have people either not pay, show up, or leave early due to weather. Luckily the OA was camping the next weekend and they bought the unused supplies from us. Another time we we had all this food ready to go, and severe weather hit causing folks to go home after dinner. We had a very hearty dinner that nite. Last camp out, every family for themself. Kinda sad, but it worked out.

Not really a bad split per say. But I know of one pack was started from about 1/2 of my current pack's Cubs just as I joined, i.e between when I Joined the pack n June and when the Round Ups started in September. Long story short, one of our DLs was asked by his pastor to restart the pack at his church. Kinda hard to say no to your pastor. While some in my pack were not happy, heck still not happy, with the situation, I undertsand it and have no qualms..

Greek leather thong works. Also I forgot what the knot is called, it's not a standard BSA one, but I tie that one and it hold.

Yep the OA flap is always hardest to take off but it gets easier as you move. I made 6 moves in 7 years. Hardest thing for me to do was take off my Chilantakoba flap and wait until I did my seven hours of service prior to buying my new flap. A lot of blood, sweat, and tears, as well as a girlfriend or two , was sacrificed to the OA in general and Chilantakoba lodge in particular, and not wearing a flap was hard.

Spent way to much time last nite reading a few of the files, including the 81 pager that Oak mentions. Sad, yes. Needed to be released publically, don't know. Should all of those proven beyond a reasonable doubt be incarcerated, yes for life. BSA is a excellent organization, but like any good organization, sometimes bad members are in it. You don't judge the US military as a whole over the idiocy of a few? Can't judge BSA over these folks. And I would love to see some stats on total volunteer membership during this period, total numbers in the files, total number of prosecutions (or if statute of limitations expired SHOULD have been prosecuted), and total numbers who were removed, but not enough evidence to convict.

Oak, While the "women and children first" may seem quaint and outdated, it is not. I don't remember where exactly in Europe it was, I think in Scandinavia, but a ferry had an accident and was sinking. Instead of people helping one another out, especially kids who could not swim, there was a mad scramble for lifejackets and people fighting over them. Fred, I've been back involved in Cub Scouts for only 4 years now, but the Cubs I've wokre with DO know the Promise and LOTP. I for one do not like the change. the programs lose the age appropriateness and Venturing loses more of its identity. However I do like the Corps of Discovery proposal to use the Venturing Oath and Code as their own.

What I find funny today is that back in the day, my FA MBC made us do FA improvising with stuff we had or we could find. made us really thing and use the knowledge we had. When I reviewed the BSA's WFA book they came out with in 2008 or therabouts ( it was just before CPR went to CAB instead of ABC), with the exception of detailed diagnosing of the injured and the documentation recommended, it was essentially FA MB all over again. Best FA course and instructor I ever had.

Sometimes it's hard. I know of one case where a leader is renting a room from another leader, essentially living with the family. They are in same troop, how to handle transport if one dad is working late and the leader renting needs to bring the Scout to the meeting? Then what about the situation I was in recently. Dad and his two scouts show up at a camp out, and while setting up the new tent, realize there was no tarp for it, and it's suppose to rain? Kids are starving, food needs to be cook, and dad needs to get a tarp ASAP. Since this was A) a district event and other folks were around B) other folks were suppose to be there C) My 2 scouts were around and D) I considered this an emergency due to the weather, I kept all four scouts with me while dad went and got a tarp. No one on one, so I felt fine. Now I admit, I have violated YP once, and if I had to I would do it again. One of our staffers fell and broke his arm. I had to drive him to the hospital. I put him in the backseat while I drove.

HMM, while I like the concept, I know that A) our COR is more figure head than anything, although he does visit on occasion, and actually camped with the troop once, but otherwise is hands off and B) our CC has been incorrectly listed as an MC for the past 3 years now and nothing changes despite repeated attempts. Then again at least she is on the charter. We have 2 DLs, 2ADLs, and 3 MCs not on the charter still. And it took the district training chair and one DL confronting the DE at roundtable to get him on the hcarter after 5 months of repeated attempts and emails.

If memory serves, GTSS has a recommended list of items. I've also seen list of supplies in the pocket Wilderness First Aid Book BSA came out with in 2008 or there abouts. Usually I hang up my FA kit, but we have several RNs and EMTs about and they have stuff too. Troop has an EMT as SM and his jeep is one giant FA kit.