Eagle92

WCS, WELCOME TO THE DARKSIDE, BWAHAHHAHAHAHAH (CAPS FOR THE EVIL SOUNDING VOICE) By all means do what you think is best. The handouts do work. Funny you mention it, but as part of the district Webeloree, they have a uniform inspection. When my pack leaders were reading about it, they made the comment that they need to get the uniforms up to par. Now if we could get all leaders to care about their uniform appearance. One pack in my district looks liek the Belgians I met, patches everywhere.

A good Den Chief is worth their weight in PLATINUM, not gold. The den chief I had as a CS was approx 15, Star, and had a lot of experience in scoutcraft and leadership. He joined us when I was a Webelos. He ran a few meetings with the adults supervising, basically those meetings focusing on outdoor scoutcraft skills, intro'd use to his troop (which was not affiliated with the pack) which my den later joined. Overall he was an asset. However the I need to stress the WDLs used him appropriately and allowed him to do things that was outside their comfort zone, but were part of the program. I however worked for one set of DLs who treated me as if I was another CS not an aid to help them, and didn't do much with the den. So I transfered to, and stuck with another den for my last 2 years as a DC (this was when CSs was 3 years and a DC stayed for 3 years) So you not only want a good DC, but also DLs who will use him to their and the CS's advantage. The CSs do hero worship the DC, emmulate, and are a more prone to listen to him than the DLs at times.

I'M BACK For the moment anyway. To clarify, any DL positions is the hardest. I am emphasizing TCDL as that is the position I am in currently, in reality if not on the charter (don't get me started on that one, it's being dealt with AGAIN). And being a DL for 5 years can wear one out. I'm fortunate in that I am addicted to Scouting, and whenever I start feeling burned or stressed out, I just need go camping and turn into PROGRAM FREAK to recharge. But others are not like that.

AM, Every council does things differently. I guess the financial situation in my neck of the woods has played a major role in what my council does. At our trainings, we usually have the DE, if available, or another pro at the event. Heck for my BALOO training, the SE himself came out. Also the only charge we have for most trainings is food, IOLS and BALOO may also incur a camp fee IF not at a scout camp (has happened only 1 time to my knowledge, 6 camps help). All materials to participants comes out of council budget. Theory is that the volunteers are investing time and energy into the program, they should get the support they need. Also in my council, I can tell you for a fact that Summer camp does NOT take care of the camp for the entire year. If memory serves it takes care of expenses over the summer only. the other 8.5 months coems out of budget. In the past the pros did a bunch of the work in creating programs liek camporee and family campouts. Heck I rememeber one time for a family campout it was 3 of us resposnible for doing all of the work. Very little assistance from volunteers. Now it's like a partnership between Pros and Vols. We are having some growing pains in this area, but overall I think we are definitely headed int he right direction. Now day camp when I was a DE was completely volunter run with DEs only providing resources as needed. Camp salaries are budgeted in awith the summer camp prices if memory serves. As I mentioned we are fortunate in that we are in the process of revitalizing our council camps. As for insurance therie is two types: accident and liability. One is covered by registration fees, the other isn't. that's why it's part of FOS, as well as part of each event. trust me the events fees don't cover it all. Ok gotta get back to work so more later. However I do understand teh challenges faced, and have faced them before. I am just glad that we now have a great SE who is doign something to improve Scouting in my neck of the woods.

Zippy, Every pack does things differently. Around here it says that you are moving up, more is expected of you, and you can now start working on your next rank and set of electives, SCOUTNET and the June 1 aside. This is done the Monday before Memorial Day, and gives the folks the chance to wear their new neckers and slides for the Memorial Day Weekend service project we do. As for retention, we have some good success there. IF the new scouts last until may, they usually are with us the whole time. And we do fun stuff over the summer.

I remember that FOS= Fund Our Salaries Joke. I know how challenging FOS can be to sell to units, esp. in my neck of the woods with high unemployment even before the current recession. But I know where the money is going, especially now. So in that aspect I am lucky, very lucky. Our SE is reinvigorating our program, and the pros are right there beside the volunteers in getting this done. Also improvements to the council camps are being implemented, and it looks as if a captial campaign will be underway to make major improvements and expansions at the camps. I must honestly say that it is a good time to be in my council. Additionally I also know how much activities can cost to operate, and that some do go into the red. One reason why I am being so slow and analytical about my CSDC budget at the moment. I do not want to go into the red. Yes some FOS money does go into salaries. But as a former pro I can tell you that a good DE is worth their weight in gold. I know of folks who left and doubled, or in one case tripled, their salary. I know of the huge amounts of time spent in the background, which puts tremendous stress on the family life. I don't know if it was a PDL-1 or the All Hands Conference I went to, but somewhere I heard that the divorce rate among pros was extremely high, higher than some of the more widely known professions with high divorce rate. And in case you didn't already realize it, I do give what I can to FOS, and have done FOS talks.

My thoughts. #1 I believe the Webelos program is very well designed overall. Only real complaint is the AOL and age requirements as that does leave a lot of room for moving up to Scouts. But that is minor. #2 Challenge lies with implementation. Folks are trained to do things a certain way for 3 years, and even with training, are in a grove and don't really adapt to changing program. Also as previously mentioned, it's hard to say you are no longer trained, despite 3 years and 2 courses of expereince #3 Burnout. I have found it's harder to be a TCDL than an ASM or OACA. With ASM, you are guiding youth to do the work. And as an OACA, unless you are rebuilding a chapter, you are still guiding the youth. And even with rebuilding, the number of meetings to help organize are quite fewer, and the major activities are organized by the lodge for you. But as a DL you MUST plan, organize and execute meetings almost weekly. More later.

We also graduate the entire pack, including the 4th grade Webelos. Everyone receives a new necker and slide, except the new Webelos II's who receive a compass. Now my pack and others in my area do this at the last formal meeting in May. Traditionally the school year ended before Memorial Day, but recently the state ended that. However b/c there is talk of that being changed again, plus traditions are heard to break, May is the end of the year for most packs. Luckily my pack does do things every two weeks over the summer. And as mentioned, SCOUTNET uses June 1.

Your council should have one. The link provided gives you the same info as well OK This may be breaking #2 above, or maybe adding to it, I'll let the folks here judge. But once you got your troop started, I'd recommend getting a copy of the 3rd. ed SM HB, both volumes. Green Bar Bill wrote an excellent plan to getting your youth up to par with scoutcraft and leadership skills. You may need to modify it to today's society, it was written int he late 1920s/early 1930s but the foundation it provides is a good one.

#1 talk to your DE as he has all the info needed to start a unit. #2 ASK FOR, AND FOLLOW TO THE LETTER, THE STEP BY STEP PROCESS FOR STARTING A NEW UNIT BROCHURE! (caps for emphasis, not shouting) #3 Follow the brochure's process and let no one tell you to take shortcuts. When I was a DE, I used that brochure's process and it worked. Takes time, yes, but by doing it the right way, it provides a foundation for the unit to last. I know of coworkers who tried to shortcut the process, and the unit doesn't last long. Good Luck

MN, No problems from me. However I must state as a long time Scouter, 18 years this year as a scouter, plus 10 more as a CS and BS, When I went through the CS Basic Leader Training a few years back, and Taught all three DL Specific courses (TCDL, CSDL, and WDL) I did find all still helpful and did noticve the differences. PLUS having worked CSDC this past summer, and working on program for this years, there are BIG differences between the different program elements of CS based uipon the abilities of the boys. HOWEVER that said, I read somwhere, sorry can't cite the specific location, that the TC den format will be coming more into line with the other programs areas come May 2010. I personally am interested in what's up as I am the only one signed up as a CS trainer in my district so far!

Sctdad, Doesn't PAPPY's down the road from you sell surplus ones? I'ld use that as a model. Grant you they don't fit under the cots, but are great for storage AND double as a chair.

Ok had a chance to look at it during lunch. Please note that there is a Webelos Leader Specific course as well as the two you mentioned.

MN, Don't know if the link aslo shows a WEBELOS DEN LEADER Specific Training as there is such a thing, and Webelos are still Cubs Scouts. The reason for 3 different den leader training session is b/c the three levels have different parts of the meeting, have things done differently, etc. For example, the TCDL talks about how to use the partners, and still has the Share, Discover Search elements form pre-CS Tiger Cubs. CSDL training focuses on the 7 elements of a meeting more, and WDL focuses on makign the transition form CS to BS. Now I have heard that the new online training will cover all aspects: Tigers, Wolves and Bears, and Webelos.

OH...MY...GOD! Everyone is correct in that parents are allowed. It's their kid, therie responsibility. However in my experience, I'd strongly discourage parents from atteding unless registered as a leader. As you can guess I've had a few bad experiences with parents and camping. Not to hijack, but if you are stuck with them, here is what I would do. 1 Organize them into patrols,w ith a few expereinced leaders to help them. Make sure that they are told well in advance that they need to A)Come up with their own menu for what they will be eating as everyone must play a part. B)Come up with a duty rooster so that it is clear on who is doign what and when. 2 KEEP THEM AWAY FROM THEIR SONS AND BUSY ALL DAY (caps for MAJOR emphasis, not shouting. #2 is critical b/c if you do not keep them away and occupied, they will follow their son around and interfer. I had that happen to me when my KP partner didn't do his share one time b/c " My dad said I don't have to clean up," have seen this start up with new parents in my old troop growing up (thank you Mr. Joe for gettign htem out of our hair), and have recently seen this with a troop in my district at camporee.

Program consists of the following All events: trainings, summer camp, camporees, day camps, residents, etc. that inlcudes salaries for summer camp staff, any entertainment, etc. And as stated elsewhere, FOS donations do help keep things affordable compared to other programs. I know at $55/week $70 with late fee for CSDC we are the cheapest day camp in the county, even if it's only for a week. Properties: council service center, camp(s) This is probabaly the biggest chunck as it also covers electricty, water, insurance, etc. Ok mind is drawing a blank on what else it covers. I'm sure others will chip in. On a different but similar note, there is a professional fundraising organization that non-profit fundraiser's may join IF they meet certain criteria. One of the criteris if memory serves is that no more than 33% of the budget can be spent on fundraising and administrative work. So essentially 67% had to be spent on program. Again this is from memory, and the stats come from 12 years ago.

Concur, badge magic does leave stains, almost makign the uniform unusable if you want to pass it down. I've used the predecessor, Badge Bond, 1 time, and only because it was a can that was returned b/c the customer was not happy one bit about it. got permission to play with the stuff, and will never use it or anythign like it again.

WN, Welcome to the forums. Actually the red jac shirt IS a part of the official uniform and does have uniform guidelines to follow. After all we are setting the example for our youth. What is interesting is that at one time, up to early 1970s I beleive, there were no regulations on the jacshirts, so patches could eb worn indescimentently (sp) on it. However that did change. And they did limit it. HOWEVER I knwo a few folks who have had their jacshirts since the 1960s, and keep them as they did back inthe day. One thing I don't like about the IG is that it doesn't keep older uniform info. I have a patch ont he right pocket of my jac shirt that I am authorized to wear from back inthe day, but there is no mention of it in the IG. I usualy have to pull out the book to show UPs, of which i've beent old I am one, that yes it is an authorized patch for the right pocket.

Here's the deal in reference to the uniform number and the centennial uniform (CU). When the brochure came out that introduced the CUs, everyone wearing them was suppose to switch to green and tan numbers, HOWEVER the brochure did say that uniform items could be mixed and matched. Insignia are part of the uniform, and so are the loops, so it is possibel to wear the red and whites and red loops says some, other's say no because insignia are not part of the uniform, despit ebeing required on the uniform. National didn't hasn't clarified this, so some debate remains Then national decided to very briefly put out info on red and tan numbers. To my knowledge they were never made, but were a concept that for about 2 weeks were shown on the CU brochure online. This was suppose t be worn by CS and CS Leaders in the CUs. Then the 2009-10 IG came out saying that CS and their leaders in the CUs, and Webelos are CS still, wear Red and White numbers, along with a smaller red and tan trained strip if applciable still. Confusing isn't it. Me personally, I think it was a mistake to change make multiple numbers colors, and go back to one color for all. Has worked for at least 40 years, if not longer.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Everyone does ralize that if you provide Supply with a quote, they will match or beat it?

bear, Contact the CM ASAP for a copy of the ceremony script. Every unit does it different, and some untis don't do Crossovers at all, that's the job of the troop and/or OA. good luck and CONGRATULATIONS! Now the fun really begins.

Scoutfish Yep John is correct. however a more accurate description would be the follow: If you volunteer your time to Scouting, you are a volunteer. If you are paid to do Scouting, you are a professional If you pay to do Scouting, you are a Scouter.

As a former BSA Lifeguard and someone who has gone through NCS for CSDC, this is a bad idea, a really bad idea. I'm not a lawyer, but I am willing to bet that if something did happen, parents could and would go after the pack leadership, even if a waiver is signed. Other questions I have inlcude the following: Who in the pack has taken Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat? Those are rules that guide most aquatic activies. It talks about such things as ability groups, training, equipment, ratio of lifeguards to swimmers, etc. In addition to SSD and SA, there is also a CA Aquatics manual. In it it states that it is a district/council event, you need someone certified as a BSA Aqautics Director ( someone who is not only a BSA lifeguard, but TRAINS BSA lifeguards) or a CS Aquatics Supervisor (someone who si a BSA Lifeguard and trained in the extras of CS Aquatic programs.) Maybe it's me, I'm a stickler for rules, but I wouldn't participate. I would aslo tell the committee why I am not going, and use the BSA literture to show that it's a realy bad idea. Further you may need to talk to the IH or COR. From my personal experience from a similar situation, you will not be a very popular person, but you may save a life.

Oak, Problem is that the Patrol Method, is not just a method of Scouting, but one of the foundations of Scouting, going back to BP and his 'experiment" on Brownsea Island in 1907 with 20 boys, formed into 4 patrols of 5 members each: CURLEWS, Ravens, Wolves and Bulls. The Idea of an SPL comes from Green Bar Bill and his expereinces with Scouting in Denmark. Now grant you the 3rd ed. of the SMHB does talk about the SM being the PL of the troop's youth leadership, but that si only while starting a troop, or revitalizing one, and the SM gradually backs away from things and lets the youth take over.

Idea, Welcome to National Supply of late. For whatever reason they keep puttinout stuff with no direction. See the centennial uniform discussion form last year,i.e. came out with a new uniform and patches and only guidance was a brochure that was later contradicted by an Insignia Guide published 9 months after the uniform came out.