Eagle92

BSA does indeed take water safety seriously, in fact we have a history of promoting swimming safety going back to its founding. grant you swimming MB is not required for any aquatic MB except Lifesaving, you must have passed a swimmer's test, requirement 3 that OGE posted, before doing any of the water based stuff. A question: was this at a summer camp or at a troop function? Summer camps must have a BSA certified Aquatics Director. These guys go through a weeklong super intense course that is the toughest course at National Camping School ( yes tougher than my beloved COPE Director course). AT the course they master, if they haven't already, all of the aquatic MBs skills, and gain the credentials to certify people as BSA Lifeguards. They can also certify folks in the two new BSA aquatics instructor courses. As a former YMCA Lifeguard Instructor, I can tell you that anyone who is a BSA Aquatics Instructor has more KSAs than YMCA and ARC Lifeguard Instructors. In fact new BSA Lifeguard program mirrors ARC, esp. since ARC rewrote the program for us ( no comment on that). All that said if this occured at camp, some serious concerns are raised, and I would have a chat with the SM who in turn should have a chat with the Camp Director, as they should know better. Now if this occurred with a troop, then I would discuss this with the SM. This is violating G2SS policies, and Safety Afloat regulations. If memory serves, only time a beginner or non-swimmer classified scout can get in a boat is in a row boat with a swimmer, or any watercraft with a certified lifeguard form any accredited agency. Again if memory serves, been a while since I was a BSA Lifeguard and haven't had to deal with aquatics in along time.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

B'hood, I can understand about your feelings about the 70s, whoever decided to do away with traditonal scouting should have been fired, oh wait he was if memory serves. However i do like the skill awards, and it's the only thing I can think of that I like from that period, except the colored oval patches. I like those too. Also agree with the 'do it and done" mentality. Seems like that is the case in a lot of units. I prefer the "do it, master it, teach it" approach personally. That is kinda how it was done with my troop. The did the Show Tell Do approach ( or was it tell show do) of teaching, then allowed you to do it on your on, earning the SA. Then you were expected to teach that skill. It would take some time to earn the SAs, not only a month if memory serves. One thing I do have to comment on is membership. I agree with you that Urban Scouting of the 1970s nearly destroyed the BSA and only GBB coming out of retirement was the only thing that saved the BSA. I also think we are still seeing the repercussions of that with new leaders who were never involved in scouting and have little to no experience with the outdoors. But I honestly believe that we need to take past membership stats with a grain of salt because of incidents like Greater Alabama. I thik it was more widespread than was found. Also think the current stats are more representative of membership. I can tell you that the district I served i as a DE 10+ years ago has more active scouts today than when I was a pro. I honestly believe is growing.

I have noticed the power of volunteers. My council traditionally had the pros plan and organize everything. Little to nothing was left to volunteers. While program was there, it was rough and could have been better. I put part of the blame on the senior management. Now we have a SE who wants more volunteer involvement. It is happening and we have had 3 major council wide CS events. Was planning "challenging" yep. Were we scrambling for staff, yep. But the kids had a blast!

BSA is in a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation. By trying to prevent the information from being released it will look as if we have done nothing to prevent this form happening, when in fact we have. But by not contesting the release, that information may harm the victims of abuse again. Also there are some folks whose names are in the files due to hearsay and accusations. It could be damaging for them, even if they have done nothing wrong.

I do not know why they did away with Skill Awards as I was a Life Scout at the time, but I can tell you that there were a lot of ticked off scouts over the change. Those awards showed that you mastered basic scout skills. As an older scout, I and others didn't like the "new" advancement requirements because A) it did away with the time requirements which we thought were vital to allowing the new scouts to master skills and "quit acting like Cub Scouts," B) scattered the skills all over the ranks so that instead of allowing a scout to focus on one specific skill to master and adavance, they got bits and pieces of the skills, and C) made teaching a tad bit trickier b/c instead of PLs and Leadership Corps working on one skill at a time, we had to work on multiple bits. Today I know of plenty of SMs and ASMs who still believe that SA should be brought back for the reasons cited above.

BROTHERHOOD, While the recognition is the same, a metal loop worn on the belt,two completely different programs with different purposes. Boy Scout Skill Awards were earned once a basic Scout skill was learned, i.e Citizenship, First Aid, Hiking, etc. They were part of the rank requirements, thus you had to earn them in order to get Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class. Plus since those ranks at the time did have time requirements, i.e. be active with your troop for X time, they provided immediate recognition for mastering skills. As I noted, in my troop only adults wore the leather belts, and I believe it's b/c of the Skill Awards. Now if memory serves, the CS Sports Program came out in August 1984 as part of the BSA's Diamond Jubilee. They were additional things you could do, and were not required for any CS rank. Later the Academics program was added, and a few Webelos activity badges require specific belt loops to be earned in order to get the AB. Thus it's completely optional whether you work on belt loops and pins or not until Webelos. Also the sports and academics program is desigend to allow the scout to try new things (belt loop), acquire new skills if desired (pins) and grow physically and mentally. Sorry I can't go into details, but the Sports program was intro'd when I was a Webelos so I never worked on any, and I haven't worked with webelos yet. So again that program is a complete option to use with CSs, while SAs were essentially mandatory if you wanted to advance. Hope this helps.

Thought I'd pass along Greetings Arrow-l: We are presently working on an Order of the Arrow history project that is web based. It is anticipated that an individual or individuals with Flash or HTML 5 (or their equivalent ) experience will be needed to be able to develop this project. We can guarantee a rewarding experience and a chance to provide service to your fellow Arrowmen. Those interested can email me at topkis@sisna.com . Please provide a short synopsis of your background and qualifications. We can provide an introduction and in depth explanation of this special project. Please pass this email along to any Arrowmen you know who might be interested in this opportunity In Service, Bill Topkis 2009 NOAC Museum / Center for History

Engineer, There is a big difference between a group of 20 scouts in a summer camp MB class who are learning skills going out unsupervised and a patrol of 6-10 scouts in a patrol going out unsupervised. The MB class consists of scouts from all over the council, and maybe even OOC units. they may know one or two people in the class from their troop and that's it. The MBCs do not know these kids on a long term basis, doesn't know their KSAs, and generally have no idea. Further the scouts are learning a skill, hence the need for instructors to supervise them. So in effect it isn't unit leaders that failed, but rather the council through its employees, the summer camp staff, that failed. With the patrol method, you have 6-10 scouts who know each other, have worked together as a team, and have been trained together. Their KSAs are a known factor b/c the SM has been watching them over a period of time. As a result the SM should be able to tell if they can handle it or not. Further the parents haev to approve of the activity as well. As for the reason why national had to pay, the BSA is self insured, i.e. membership fees and insurance fees go into the BSA's coffers for events like this. Now in reference to the Oregon case, slightly off subject but I feel a response is in order, the reason for the "Black Book" was that in an age before computers, a central resource was needed to block folks from being leaders who shouldn't. Again people are judgeing an event that took place in the 1980s with 1980s tech by trying to use 2010 tech, and that isn't possible.

Gary is correct in that a pack cannot do their own BB gun shooting as it is a violation of G2SS. However some councils, including my own, have programs in place where a pack uses the BB gun range, equipment, and council certified folks to run it. My understanding is that becasue the council is offering the program, it is covered by G2SS. Also districts, because they are extensions of the council, can operate BB Gun and Archery programs. Otherwise CSDCs would not be able to haev those programs sicne they are usually run on the district level.

In the original post, the scouts were told they would participate in one program, but were given another. Units talk with their feet, i.e. not going to Camp XYZ in favor of another. Don't like what's going on at the camp you went to, you don't go back. One of the camps I know of a bad program reputation at one time. Lots of units decided to go OOC. Change didn't happen over nite, but it took approx. 4 years and 2 CDs, one of which was staff during the heyday of the camp, to turn it around. Camp now has an awesome program, awesome facilities, and and awesome staff. I know of one SM had an issue with something that happened at camp. He promised never to return to that camp again, and kept that promise. In 11 years since he told me that, his troop went to the camp 1 time, and that was after he retired s from being SM. That troop found another camp they liked, and have been there ever since, save one year. Now I admit I think a scout should pay his way, been there , done that. But we all know that the actual cost of summer camp, depending upon location, is more likely $400 to $600 per week per scout, if not more. I know I couldn't afford that cost growing up, and in my neck of the woods the fee is causing problems. SE pretty much told the OA that they need to raise more camperships b/c the economy is in the tank and people cannot afford to pay the fee.

WOW, I empathize, esp. since I can understand. I was a DE in a council like that minus the arrogant DEs. We kept hitting out heads against a wall until we finally quit. The best thing I cna recommend is get your COR involved on the district and council level per his right as a COR. That and pray for a new SE with a different outlook. When the SE I worked for left, champagne was broken out by volunteers and the new SE made some changes in a positive direction. Current SE is a Godsend and is putting the kids first.

I also grew up with them, and I love them. In my case at least, I focused on mastering one particular basic scout skill in toto, and received SA for it. Don't know why, but it was a troop tradition during my tenure, but youth didn't wear leather belts, only adults. I believe it had something to do with the SAs becasue they were considered advancement,and that had to have paperwork filled out to get them. I say that b/c once SAs went away in '89, about 3 or 4 years later, we had a few youth start wearing their leather Philmont Belts, wheras noone saave the adults wore them before hand. And that would have corresponded for the first batch going through without SAs being abel to go tot PSR,

You guys got movie nites at summer camp!?!?!?!?!!?! LOL. Only 1 time did that ever happen, and that was when severe weather rolled in and everyone had to go to the Dining Hall for safety. Grant you my OA lodge does it after the Ordeal Ceremonies, but everyone is too tired to do anything ( remember WWW= WORK WORK WORK! ) IMHO most electronics don't have a place at camp, unless serving on staff. For the long hours and low pay, if any, they get, they deserve some perks. I would make exceptions for those leaders who are doing coursework and./or school work via internet. I met a few young scouters who are taking online classes over the summer,so they do their school work when they can. Also know at least 2 IT folks who go to my camp and are on the staff wifi in order to work. But the scouts themselves, no way.

Something I forgot, you are crossing over form Cub Scouts. there is a VERY BIG DIFFERENCE ( caps for emphasis) between CS program format and BS program format. CS has adults in charge and there is now an emphasis on advancement being completed at every meeting, unles you did FastTrax and then it's been around for a while. The adult den leaders had Program Helps, FastTrax Guide, and now the resource guide that tells you everything you need to know, do, and plan for a meeting. And of course everythgin is focused on advancement. Even the goal of getting X badge by May has been aroudn for a long time. BS is completely different. Youth run the patrols and troop. Youth ar ethe ones that need to plan, organize, prepare for and lead meeting and events. meetings are focused on KSAs for the upcoming trips, not necessarily advancement. And while a good troop will give the scout the opportunity to advance to First Class within 12-18 months due to the activities planned and not necessarily due to the FCFY program, Once they master the basic Scout skills, they then need to apply them via being a leader and workign with the younger scouts, learn advance Scout skills via Eagle required MBs, and learn skills that interest them via the elective MBs. Star onwards is definately all about what the scout want to do. My caveat, DO NOT PUSH THE SCOUT! (emph.) I've seen scouts who get Eagle and get out, not realizing the fun they can have b/c of being pushed so hard. I've aslo seen scouts who cause nothing but trouble and rebel b/c they are being forced to be in scouts. Kinda ruins it for the rest of us.

My council also has a $0 charge for day long training UNLESS meals are involved. Last time I did IOLS, we charged $15 that included 3 meals, facility rental, insurance, and card.

Read the articles provided and I have questions. #1 It says in one place a troop, and in another it said councilors. So was it a troop outing,or a summer camp class doing their overniter. #2 If a troop outing, where are the leaders as troops do need to have 2 deep leadership. #3 If a summer camp WSMB class, then why did the instructors leave? INHO this has NOTHING to do with the patrol method. NOTHING! Yes they were not supervised, but it apppears to be an ad hoc group. A leader TRAINS his patrols, the work together as a team and then the SM and p[arent OK trip. Sorry need to cool off and quit ranting.

bac, I actually got a different interpretation; let the scout decide what he wants to do when he wants to do it.

that second to last sentence should read "WITHOUT ME OR ANY OTHER LEADER PRESENT" ( caps for emphasis of word change.) And i wuld still be jealous of soem of teh activities

Agreed. IMHO, and we all know what opinions are like , a patrol that has knows each other, including abilties and weaknesses, has worked together as a cohesive team, and has the KSAs to do soemthingon their own should do so. While it was not a "non-adult" patrol activity, I do remember being 18 and 19 YO, doing completely different activities away form the rest of the troop with my friends in the Leadership Corps (yep we called the older scout patrol LC for a few years after it became Venture Crews until our LC patch supply ran out). Didn't do much "supervising" as I was tagging along for the fun of it. They were in charge and I was going alogn for the ride. And I would feel comfortable with those guys doing those activities with me, or any other adults present. But I admit I would be jealous

I've told this story before, so I'll abbreviate it a tad bit so as not to bore everyone else who has heard it before. I know two Eagles. Eagle 1 was the son of an Eagle and Exploring Silver recipient. Eagle 1's dad pushed him to get Eagle by thirteen so that HS wouldn't get in the way, and he met that goal and promptly dropped out. he returned as a TCDL when his son got involved. Eagle 2 is #1's cousin. He was a go getter, listened to his Eagle uncle, and wanted to model Eagle 1. Got to Life at 13, got his project done within 4-6 months of getting Life, but really got hooked on Scouting. He went through the council's advance youth leader training course. He went to a National Scout Jamboree, and did a canoeing expedition in Canada. He also got involved in the OA. He finally got Eagle at 18, and stayed on as a leader. Eagle 2 had more wonderful experiences like working at scout camp in the UK as part of the European Camp Staff Program, served on summer camp staff in 2 different councils for 5 years, And I can go on and on. I've been involved in Scouting for 28 years now, and it keeps getting. I have not only learned a lot, but have had the privilege of working with some of the best youth. And yes, I have had a lot of FUN all this time. So the focus shouldn't be on advancement. Rather it should focus on mastering those basic life skills of self reliance, teamwork, and citizenship. Once he masters those, than he can focus on mastering leadership skills by working with and mentoring those younger scouts under him.

Short, That may be it. When I briefly tried to google the lawsuit, not at work so no time to do a thorough search, I was unable to find it. Also no lexisnexis access at home. If it is a bunch of summer camp CITs, it's not patrol method. PM and G2SS clearly state that parents and SM must give approval. While parents do give approval for scouts to go to summer camp, they are assuming a degree of adult leadership in the MB classes and activities in the form of adult councilors.

Try a military surplus store.

Mike, Yep. At least in my expereince every one is either Den 1, den 8, etc or Wolf Den 1, Tiger den 2, etc EXCEPT for the Webelos. they are the only Cubs that can use Den names. part of that is to prep them for BS.

Repro of teh 1911 BSHB via scout stuff, or if you can find one BP's Scouting for Boys

As fast or as slow as he wants. Now I advise scouts I meet and know 3 things: Get to Life before HS as HS tends to make things more difficult, as soon as you get Life begin your project process, and HAVE FUN!