Eagle92

I am actually all for a national standard. As mentioned, people do move around. There are several problems as I see it. #1 is the "One and Done" mentality that is pervasive. Heck you even get that one and done attitude from reading training syllabi from national. Instead we need to get back to basics and focus on MASTERY of the skills. Unfortuantely that word is not in the BSHB, and the closest to that is the sentence, which I need to paraphrase, ' The badge represents what the Scout can do, not what he has done" which is not even in the book or any trainging literature, but in the G2A, #2 We really need to do a better job of getting parents, and leaders as well, out of the Cub Scout ideal of "doing your best" to earn something.

Richard, Yes national is suppose to create and support the program. Problem is, national has made some mistakes IMHO. I am glad that national now allows packs to go camping, but some of the CS program needs more outdoor emphasis and less arts and crafts. I have lost one family b/c "you don't camp enough," and my pack is camping 4-6 times a year with the district and council events included. On the Boy Scout to many traditional skills and activities are either not covered in materials or are severely restricted. Best example I can give is trying to do IOLS last year. I could not, repeat NOT, use the current BSHB as a reference for packing lists, how to do skills, etc. I had to pull stuff out of my old BSHB and fieldbooks to get a good equipment list. And don't ask about Wood Tools. And as mentioned, traditional activities are no more or curtailed. No more 30 foot pioneering towers that scouts build b/c you need to have a brain bucket, harness, and belay lines if you go over 5 feet. And don't get me started with the asinine rules on service projects that came out. You already know my opinions and arguments. Training needs some serious improvement. I mention the outdoor skills stuff already. But to make matters worse, the concept of scouts mastering skills for sign off is gone, and having the scouts do it one time for sign off is in if you read some of the training literature like the IOLS syllabus. Also I really believe the "One Size Fits All" approach to training is a problem, as evidenced by the national training committee looking over the NYLT materials as there are reports of problems with Boy Scouts and Venturers being in the courses. And while I haven't been to WB21C yet, I do think it's funny that a 3 beader can be considered "untrained." Although I understand why: the 3 beader earned his beads as a CM and has sinced moved on. It use to be that WB showed that you have completed all basic training, and it was the "mountaintop expereince." As for Venturing, I understand that National rushed out the program before it was ready, heck I and others in my PDL-1 class called out the then national Venturing director on some things prior to it coming out in 1998. But the program doesn't even have a chance to grow and prove itself before it changes. Time is needed for somethings. And don't get me started on the One Oath Initiative. My personal opinion is that too many folks who got their start in Improved Scouting era are still around and trying to reintroduce that failed program of taking the OUTING out of ScOUTING (caps for emphasis, not shouting). Heck when the current BSHB can not even get the Green Bar Bill quote that "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING" (caps to make it easier to count the letters and do the math: 6/8 simplified is 3/4) correct, you know there is a deemphasis on traditional scouting. Sad thing is, Green Bar Bill is no longer here to save Scouting like he did before. And I cannot think of ANYONE who could fill his hiking boots today.

Base, Could be that they were trying to be program neutral as Sea Scouts and Venturers can also work on Star, Life, and Eagle if they got First Class before becoming a Sea Scout or Venturer.

EDITED: Double post (This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Base, Could be that they were trying to be program neutral as Sea Scouts and Venturers can also work on Star, Life, and Eagle if they got First Class before becoming a Sea Scout or Venturer.

Music all depends upon the type of ceremony and what's being done. When I was more active with the OA, the chapter ceremony team and drum would go and do the ceremony. Songs sung would be Native American ones usually the Melvin Kerchee song since he allowed the OA to use it a while back.

ACCO, No patrol camping without adults was done away with approx. 2 years ago, and is in the current G2SS found here http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf on page 1. Scoutings Barriers to Abuse The BSA has adopted the following policies for the safety and well-being of its members. These policies are primarily for the protection of its youth members; however, they also serve to protect adult leaders. Two-deep leadership on all outings required. (Bold in original, italics ime) Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities (emphasis mine, note it does nto say outings, oversnights etc) when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. (again emphasis mine, note it's limited to day activities) Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities ( again emphasis mine to note that adults must be on camp outs); coed overnight activitieseven those including parent and childrequire male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

Boy Scout Handbook and ziploc bag. never heard of a blue card until I worked supply. MBCs either signed off in the BSHB or the Reuqirements book a lot of us used as we could see the updated requirements for MBs when we used the troop's library for MBPs. had a conversation today with someone who sits are our district Eagle boards. He loves it when he sees a "well loved" BSHB that is dog-eared, held together by duct tape, etc. Told one Eagle to not be sorry about the condition of his handbook when the scout apologized for the book's condition. My friend did ask what were some of the trips the book went on.

Joe, As an IOLS trainer, I WANT the best outdoorsman I know teaching the classes, even if they are youth . I had a 16yo Star Scout teaching with his dad, and a 15yo Life Scout working on another section.

If Dad is not doing it right and just signing off, then HECK NO! See if a First Aid MBC or other qualified person would work with him. I know it is not against BSA rules, but I am uncomfortable signing off stuff in my Webelos' book, unless A) it was done in a group setting like Readyman, B)done at CSDC, or C) I was given permission by the WDL to do so.

Yep the Cub Scout, who had his Whittling Chip, pulled a knife to defend himself when he felt threatened.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Rain, With no disrespect intended, I've been in similar shoes so I know a bit, but 1) Officially you are too young as you do need to be 21 and B) there will be some who will completely ignore you, think you do not know anything, etc etc. As someone mentioned, if you want to serve on the district level you can be registered in the College Scouter Reserve, the only district position available to 18-21 yos. (BD, FYI college got into the situation because that is the official title of the position, and it's a district level one. I've seen it used to help some folks stay registered in college and heard about it for military folks. 92U is the Unit College Scouter Reserve position as is different). I know of one person in that position who was active on the district level under 21. Another option is to get active with the OA, especially as chapter chief. While not commonly known, CCs are defacto members of the district committee. I've seen 2 or 3 do so, and most folks do not know that. No matter what you do, be prepared for some negativity about your involvement on the district level. When I was a 21-22yo chapter adviser, I was ignored, patronized, told I don't know what I'm doing yelled at, etc b/c of my age. Just don't let it get you down. Good luck.

Acco, Life is funny at times. When I did SMF, I thought of it as a hoop to jump through. Again i didn't learn anything new except the paperwork. I did enjoy the camaraderie, and luckily I had time on my hands as I was single, in college, and no kids. If I had to do it today being married with kids, highly active in scouting, and dealing with normal life stuff, I may be a little ticked. Ok a lot ticked b/c I had one of the biggest mouths complaining to national when they were trying to make folks redo training last year But some folks have very challenging lives. My Philmont friend who did the orienteering work is one. He was the staffer who showed up to training carrying a firearm with the police CSI van as he was on call that weekend. Because they are short staffed in his department, he's been pulling 20+ hours of overtime a week, wiht one week doing 42 hours of overtime! He's already had to back out of stuff b/c of his job. Why take time away from his family? My three bead friend is a character. He did WB as a CM, and got his 3rd bead as an untrained ASM. Between the troop, crew, OA and district work he was doing,to say he was on the go would be an understatement. He had a choice: do training for skills he already has and not allow Scouts, Venturers, or Arrowman do an activiy, or skip training and provide program.

We had a similar situation at day camp. Long story short: the den chief assaulting the Cub was dismissed from staff, Cub pulling knife expelled from camp. Both reported to DE and council.

Acco, Challenge is there are some adult leaders who HAVE experienced scouting as a youth, have the outdoor skills, and do not want to waste their weekend doing training they already have. Give you an example. I went through the whole scouting program way back in the day: 3 years of Cubs (no Tigers and Cubs was 3-5 grades unlike today) and 7 years of Boy Scouts. Did the old BROWNSEA 22 program, had 2 50 milers under my belt, Eagle, etc. etc. I went through the old SM Fundamentals course where you had to complete all three sections to be trained, and no test out option. With the exception of the session on paperwork, i.e. all the forms needed to run s troop, it was a total and complete waste of my time. I knew how meetings are suppose to be run because I ran them as a youth. I knew how to camp and backpack because I did it already. And I knew most of the leadership skills as BROWNSEA 22, like NYLT today is "Woodbadge Lite." And to be honest the paperwork session could have been a self study. I'll give another example. I knew a guy who worked camp staff, is an Eagle, and went to Philmont 3 times as a youth and adult, among other adventures. but b/c he never did IOLS, he was untrained. Luckily we got him on staff for my IOLS course to do orienteering ( and he added geocaching too,) and got him "trained." But my all time favorite is the following. Know a 3 beader who was "untrained" b/c he never did IOLS. At the time, it did not matter that he was a camping, backpacking, cooking, etc etc MBC, b/c he didn't take the course, he was "untrained." Funny thing is he finally got "Trained" when he taught the course at summer camp one summer. Also got to remember this; national can change how often training is valid for. Anyone remember how in late 2011, national tried to make everyone go through training again by saying that the older courses would no longer count towards training and JTE? Only when those of us in the field started complaining did the compromise by saying that the decision to accept older training lies with the local training chairs.

yep one knot, but multiple devices may be worn. Those devices are a PAIN, literally and figuratively, especially since one of the devices has been restricted by national now for whatever reason. I earned 3 religious awards, and am entitled to wear the CS, BS and Sea Scout devices on my knot. But they come off easily, can easily be forgotten when putting in the laundry, and now I have to special order my Sea Scout device.

The "dead" period is 3 months. Rationale is that things happen on both ends council and unit, that can cause a delay. Don't know if it's national policy or a local one, but when a unit lapses here, that number is on hold for the community and does get used by a unit in another city. We had a Pack and troop die a few years back, and their number was "reserved" for my town. Now that the CO has restarted the units, and they gotr their number back.

One crazy idea I came up with, but have not, repeat NOT, implemented, is an event at district camporee called "Are You Smarter Than a First Class Scout." The event would be a competition for leaders and compose the T-2-1 skills covered in IOLS. I see two things coming from this. 1) Fun way to keep skills current 2) Test out those who have the skills, but not the time to take IOLS. 3) When national finally decides that older training courses will not count towards being "Trained," so that old fogeys like me who took SM Fundamentals back in the day will have to redo training, (remember a few months back that WAS what national wanted to do and after many protests on FACEBOOK and email came up with the current policy to let the local training chair decide whether to count the older training or not), this would be an established practice to keep people current.

I When I use to work for supply, I would shake my head a lot and wonder what was someone thinking. Most of the things I thought were crazy usually were, and i find them on sale today.

Only way I know of is to go to one of the recognized agencies and take their instructor course(s). Usually very expensive and takes several days.

My turn My question is, how long do patrols in YOUR troop last (not the ideal, Norman Rockwellized version). 2 patrols of 6-10 since it's inception in 1967. 1 patrol came about no earlier than 1972, and that was the Leadership Corps which consisted of older Scouts, First Class or higher, who had served as a PL. Don't remember if they had to serve so many terms as a PL or not. Smallest number was 3, including SPL, largest was 10. now it's the Venture Patrol/Venturing Crew (when Venturing came out, the guys in the venture crew were a little confused about the program. After turning in paperwork for an Outdoor Bronze and getting the whole spiel, the scouts and 18-20 y.o. ASMs decided to create a Venturing Crew from the venture crew/patrol and the ASMs.) As the troop expanded and contracted, 2 other patrols have come in and out of existence. The members would just pick up the torch so to speak. Patrols stay together for the most part. You had the opportunity to join another patrol 2 times a year, except when adding scouts and another patrol was needed, then volunteers would be asked to help start up that patrol. Other time you left your original patrol is when you moved up to the Leadership Corps. And then once in the LC, you were there until you became an old fogey. We didn't see a lot of moving about. Patrols were established and had histories. We had a lot of pride. When patrols went inactive due to losses, the patrol would remain "active" even if no one showed up, until the next unit election. BUT the few active scouts may be working with another patrol, or have someone help them out from another patrol. SPL and PLC handled all matters. SM was there for counseling and advice when needed. I'd like to add I'm not the Scoutmaster, I'm not on the committee, I'm Unit College Scouter Reserve. So my opinion counts for about a spoonful of hot spit. So yea, I don't expect my troop to be leaving this model. Whether or not I think it should. HORSEHOCKEY!!!!!!! You probably have more influence on the members of your troop than any committee member or ASM. Posssibly even the SM. You came up through the troop. You've served the troop. You have been a role model as an older scout. THEY WILL LISTEN TO YOU AND CONSIDER WHAT YOU SAY! (caps for emphasis not shouting;) )

VV, I know the focus has been on the NSP, but as Beav pointed out, your middle and esp older scouts can have stagnation. Ways to keep the older scout interested is A) let them run the troop, B) have opportunities for them to do their own thing either on their own weekend, or possibly on the same weekend as the troop, just doing a special activity: their own hike, own campsite away from others, etc. C) Team up with other troops in the district and council for HA.

VV, I gotta do a big ditto on 2Cub's post. The reasons why my troop stopped doing NSPs were 2 and 5. There is no solution to problem 2 that I can see. The only solution to 5 that I can see is getting more folks to help the TG work with the NSP. But that causes other problems, i.e. boredom of the older scouts, to many folks working with the NSP and not the other patrols, etc. Again splitting the NSP into existing patrols worked out easier. Problem 1 actually has a simple solution: SPL stops everything until the horseplay stops. I remember many a nite the SPL saying, "Gentlemen your wasting your game time" as we would not have game time until all the work was over with. Longer it took to do whatever we were doing the less game time we had. peer pressure is a wonderful thing. Only solutions I saw to Problems 3 and 4 are A) TG actually being the patrol leader and B) ASM involvement. Both solutions take away from the patrol electing their own PLs and having little adult involvement.

In regards to Sentinal's "patrols dieing" comment, I have to partially agree. Growing up, my troop's membership varied and we had 3 - 5, usually 4. The three patrols that remained constant were the Leadership Corps (even if they only had 3 members in it) Eagles, and Hawks, the troop's first patrols, and last I saw, they still had the original flags. Owls and Ravens would come and go as the troop grew. When I joined the troop, we had three patrols. When we we got enough for a new patrol, the new patrol was given a choice of Owls or Ravens by the SPL. We went with Ravens, took over some of the Raven gear in storage and went to work. In regards to NSPs, yep 1989 is when they officially came about, along with a lot of other changes. First mention of a "new Scout patrol" (sic) in Scouting literature is page 10 of the 10th ed. BSHB. And then it states that folks stay in it until First class or 7th grade and a Troop Guide is appointed to them with an ASM working with them. Prior to 1989 unless you were a guinea pig, and I was one in 1986, you were in a mixed age patrol from the get go. My troop experimented with a NSP in 1986 and I was appointed PL, which would correspond to Troop Guide today since I was appointed by the SM. Again it was a mess, and at the end of a year doing the NSP, we went back to mixed age patrols. Although my remaining Ravens stayed together, we got some of the new Scouts and one person from another patrol Doing some quick research on Patrol Method, and it's interesting. 3rd edition SM HB suggested several methods of forming patrols. One was letting the Scouts play some games with them picking the teams, with the SM making sure things are balanced and there are no problems. When things work, announce that patrols are formed. Another method was by neighborhoods, i.e. all the scouts in one area are one patrol, scouts in a different area another patrol. A third method was by school, i.e scouts attending one school are X patrol. Last method gets complicated, but I've seen something similar work. Scouts write on a secret ballot A) who they would want to be in a patrol with and B) Who their first and second choice for PL would be if in that group. Way my troop did it was simple: every six months, unless we got enough new scouts to add a patrol before that, the troop allowed everyone to switch patrols and elect new PLs. To join a patrol, you walked to that patrol's meeting corner. SPL and/or SM may make a change or two to balance out the patrols, but I honestly don't remember that happening except once or twice. Once everyone was in their patrol, PL would be elected. Usually you stayed with your patrol until A) we grew and added a patrol, B) we loss members and had to merge patrols C) You were elected into the Leadership Corps after meeting the requirements. Usually PLs once elected tended to get reelected. Not unusual for a PL to have 12-18 months tenure. Most of the time, PLs moved up to the Leadership Corps. Again I have had problems with, and seen problems with NSPs. I've seen leaders get too involved in NSPs for my taste, and the last time I saw an NSP in action, it was total as evidence by previous posts on the camp out several months ago. The rational behind the NSP concept, just like the concept of removing time requirements for T-2-1, was based upon retaining members. And I think that BSA didn't really look at ALL of the data.

As someone mentioned, milage may vary. Troop culture has a part to play. Again my experiences with NSPs and same age patrols have not been positive at all and I do not recommend them. A good friend of mine, one I trained too, uses the NSP until they get their Tenderfoot or Second Class. One solution we to the " be with their buddies" is that not all activities were inter-patrol. Some were teams created for the activity, usually game time, on the camp out or during the meeting. Kinda like a pick up game. As to incorporating new scouts into an established patrol, start when the potential scouts visit the troop. Ask for volunteers to be their buddy for thei visit at the meeting, and then when they visit on the camp out.