Eagle92

BP, While I did not specialize in European History, 20th century US military was my specialty with am emphasis on Korea War, I did study enough European History to state that Beav does have an accurate reading of the period. Although the bishops were consecrated by the popes, marking them as spiritually subservient to the popes, they were appointed by the local kings, and held allegiance to their king as well as promote his ideas to the various councils. Sorry forgot the historical term used to describe this situation as it has been a while, but there is one. Also the Roman Emperors prior to the fall did have heavy influence in the selection of bishops, popes, and various church Councils. Some examples of secular influence include Constatine's calling a Church council ( sorry forgot which one possibly Nicea), Phillip the Fair of France's call for the dissolution of the Knights Templar, and the temporary dissolution of the Jesuits. Now grant you, some bishops would go against the wishes of their secular patrons, Thomas a' Becket is the best known example.

Eng, Take a deep breath and relax for a few minutes. Then have a chat with son about the importance of being responsible for gear, taking care of it at the appropriate time, and not several months later, and ask how he is going to replace them. As for adults telling the youth how to divy up gear, again its the youths' responsibility and they do get guidance from the BSHB. As for calling your son and the other youth morons for not looking in the shed, that's not very appropriate behavior. i'ld calm down and suggest your son do it.

SMB, Got ya. Never said I agreed with blanket policies. As for the 1 time and you get the badge, that's why I like older scouts teching hte younger ones. Including DCs teaching their cubs. It forces them to keep practicing and mastering the skills. Now in ref to the chair of the development team, it depends. Sometimes one area of scouting doesn't know what the other area is doing. For example, the national venturing folks were saying there would be no changes to the uniform shirts, and it happened. Also sometimes one group of folks in a department or division don't know what another department is doing. Best case for inter departmental miscommunication came with the Centennial Uniform. Some folks in supply were saying that everyone in the new uniforms had to switch to green numbers and trained strips, AND had literature printed with this information. BUT when the insignia guide was published 8-9 months after the new uniforms came out, those invovled in Cub Scouts still wear red and white numbers and a tan and red trained strip. So now I see Webelos and cub leaders in both styles of numbers. Best advice I can give is show me the citation and let me look at the document.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

someone who has 'Influence and Affluence." Doesn't need to be your biggest donor, but he needs to be a big one. Must be able to talk peer to peer with the rest of the big donors. Look those community leaders who are invovled in scouting directly as leaders, or indirectly as parents. As for what field, doesn't matter. Key is "influence and affluence." I've seen docs, I've seen real estate brokers, I've seen banking VPs.

in ref to the "I talked to national line," having worked for national supply, I cna tell you that not everyone working for national knows all the ins and outs of scouting. People at national tend to focus on their own individual specialty, and may not realize what they are doing is incorrect. Best example, and one of the priciest for collectors, is when national supply issued an OA Lodge Chief POR emblem in 1993 or 1994, without the authorization to do so by the OA's National Committee. Someone in supply thought that since OA lodge advisors have their own patch, so should the lodge chief. Oh well, I guess lodge chief's have to keep on wearing Council Executive Board patches instead.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

SMB, This was an old thread and EaglePete's accoutn is closed. Did you confuse me, Eagle92 with him? If so then I think we may have some miscommunication here. I'm asking some questions for clarification so please bear with me. 1)Are you saying that you were told by the powers that be in your council that Den Chief cannot be used as a POR? if that is the case, then you are correct. DC is an acceptable POR for advancement purposes and no one can deny it's use for advancement. 2)Are you saying that because DC is a POR that can be used for advancement, then unit leaders cannot place restrictions on who can be a DC? If that is the case then you are incorrect. According to http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack/csdcf.aspx a den chief Is an older Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer. Selected by the Senior Patrol Leader and Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, or Venturing Advisor at the request of the Cubmaster. Approved by the Cubmaster and pack committee for recommendation to the den leader. Registered as a youth member of a troop, team, or crew. In the paragraph above, while it does not say that rank and age requirements are used, it does say the DC has to be "Selected by the Senior Patrol Leader and Scoutmaster..." and "Approved by the Cubmaster and pack committee ...." So if a SPL or SM doesn't want to select someone based on their age and/or rank, they can do it. Ditto for CM and pack committee. I agree that blanket rules and policies shouldn't be used, but units can make some modifications to the program to a degree as outlined in the charter agreement. I also think that any SM who doesn't want to employ DCs needs to reconsider.

Eng, This is your son's responsibility, not his PLs, SPLs or adult leaders. Part of scouting the son growing up and accepting responsibilty for their actions. Since he is missing tentpoles, he needs to figure out a way of getting them back. he can ask his buddy, he can make an announcement, he can buy new ones himself with money he earned or saved up. Or he can learn to sleep under the stars or under the tarp. But whatever you do, do not buy him new poles. As hard as it is sometimes to let you kids screw up royally, better he does it now at this age and learn, than as an adult where it could cost him his job.

Could it be that someone realized that Wolf and Bear are the same course?

SMB, I also think that you are confusing rank requirements, which as you pointed out can NOT be changed without national's approval, with non advancement policies that local councils and units, do have some liberty of modifying, as long as it doesn't violate BSA policy. One example I gave is the sheath knives at council owned camps my council has, and another is no camo at all policy another council has. No where in any national literature are sheath knives prohibited. Strongly not recommneded yes, but not prohibited. Ditto with camo; no offical policy prohibiting the use of camo gear, and in fact Supply was sellign a camo backpack a few years back. If you read the fine print on charters, units (actually the chartering organization) do have the right to make stricter policies in some areas. That's why CO can say no females as leaders, only adults with scouting experience as a youth can fill a leadership role, etc. But I agree with you that people need to go to the sources of rules, both written by national as well local ones by the SPL and SM. It may be that the SM wants folks to concentrate on their basic scout skills before moving on to a POR. It may be that the SM wants the younger scout to focus on working with his patrol, using the DC POR as a way to keep older scouts involved in scouting if they may have conflicts with patrol and troop activities. So want to ask why the policy/restriction is around, when why there are no national restrictions on being a DC?

When did they divide CSDL Specific leader into individual Wolf and Bear components? At that level, both groups are virtually identical.

'Box, Can't find a copy, but this link maybe able to help http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/keepinglog.pdf it's been 23 years since I was last a PL, but if memory serves the little brown logbook I used had the follwoign info Cover had spot to glue PM First section had contact info Second had patrol responsibilities third has attendance at patrol meetings, troop meetings, and activities Fourth section dealt with advancement fifth dealt with additional awards, i.e. religious, BSA life guard, etc Sixth had the requirements for, and application to receive the Baden Powell Patrol (aka BP Star) which is now the National Honor Patrol Award ( I liked BP Patrol and BP Star better). good luck.

Can't beleive I forgot abotu the den Chief!!!!! A decent DC is worht their weaight in gold, and a great one is worth their weight in platinum. Also while the youth may have a hard time gettin use to listening to youth, the biggest ones are the parents. Preparing parents for the transition from adult to youth lead should be a very important part of the WDLs' responsibility ( bold for emphasis) One of the better troops in my district is youth run because the SM does use the patrol method. Problem is that the new parents are so use to an organized, structured meeting with adults in charge, that they cannot comprehend the "organized chaos" of the patrol method. From parents with only CS backgrounds, I am hearing complaints about the troop and I am constatly repeating my self about the PM.

SMB, In referecne to local rules, councils and units can in some instances make stricter requirements. One example is that no sheath knives are allowed on my council's properties, which is a policy of my council but not national's 9 remember a sheath knife is offically 'discouraged". Another council has a no camoflage allowed policy at its camp. What's ironic is the no camo council sells a... camoflaged hat with the council's name on it! Now in reference to DCs, I've seen both good and bad ones. I've seen good younger ones, and bad older ones. I've seen younger DCs who acted like Cubs themselves, and I've seen older ones who couldn't lead a den without the DL. In my opinion a combination of factors come into play in making a good DC: scouting experience and knowledge, maturity, ability to work with the kids, etc. If any scout or Venturer, regardless of age or rank, doesn't have the skills, maturity, or temperament to be a DC, the SPL or SM needs to talk about it to him about it.

Actually there is a group over on MyScouting.org on Scouting urban legends. not bad, but there was some debates over there. One thing to remember is that councils can be more restrictive. For example my council does not want sheath knives on council properties. Also local laws can be more restrictive, i.e. for the PWC pilot program my council is running, you need to be 14 and go through a safety course prior to getting on a jet ski. grant you we do the course onsite if memory serves. Now in reference to uniforming.... I've been called a member of the Uniform Police, in fact a bunch of the '...You might be a member of the Uniform Police" thread was written by me and realated to things I have done (got to find out how to do a blushing smiley). The key I've found to correcting uniforms is to be polite, and show them where the resources are to find the correct uniforming info. Sometimes, like the religious awards and Sumemr time pins, it's easy to fix. Sometimes a little cutting and sewing is invovled. EDITED: Forgot to add the following: WELCOME TO THE FORUMS!!!!!!!! (and yes I am screaming )(This message has been edited by eagle92)

There is a CS Shooting sports book out there.Be advised that it is one of those hard to get items as they only want certified folk using it. Sometimes you get folks who want to do shooting sports on the den and pack level, and that is not permitted. I don't know is using older Scouts and Venturers is in the book or not, but I've seen the practice of older guys ASSISTING ( caps for emphasis) the certified adults done at summer camps and at day camps in the past. My CSDC used an older scout to assist the 2 certified folks running our BB gun range. He asssisted by passing out targets, grading targets, keeping the scouts occupied while waiting their turn, and, when needed, assisted scouts on the firing line. Also for the past two years we had an older scout assisting his parents on either the BB gun range or Archery range, depending upon where his certified parents were working. Again he helped set up and take down the range, worked with the kids while they waited, etc. Me peronally the more eyes and help on the range, the safer it is.

WDLs need to A) let the denner and asst. denner take a more active role and B) Inform parents that they need to start letting go.

Don't like the fact that this old fogey ( 18+ in a troop=old fogey; 21+=old fogey in Venturing and OA) is going behind the leadership's back is a concern. Even if he does think the troop it on the wrong footing, he needs to address his concerns directly and respectfully. While I do not like having YP issues arise form every little thing, this post does say something: you must be mindful of everything you do. Heck when I was working for supply, I was told by the boss that I was no longer allowed to put on the neckerchiefs for the new scouts b/c someone at another store put one on a new cub in the middle of the store, in the middle of roundup season, and mom screamed inappropriate touching and the guy lost his job. Don't know if he was also thrown out of Scoutin as well

This is the case I was thinking about. I knew, and everyone knew, our assistant council commissioner b/c he worked summer camp every summer, running the First Year Camper Program from the time retired from the USMC to the year before he died. He was tough, firm, and fair, and was very well respected by youth and adults alike in the council. You didn't pass your T-2-1 requirements at camp without truly knowing them and he would be willing to work with you at any time if needed. He also was part of the religious committee, specifically he was the head trainer and was the chairman for BORs for the older scout religious award. So he had two roles in Scouting that I knew him from: as he sat on my Pope Pius XII BOR. So it was natural that he would show up at my EBOR. But guess what, he wasn't in the BSA uniform. He also was a member of the Marine Corps League, and served as their representative to prevent their congratulatory certificate for earning Eagle. So he wore his MCL uniform to my ECOH. Also My first SPL in that troop, who was still listed as an ASM, also attended. although he gave me my roast and Eagle charge, he was in his USN uniform, and presented a Navy recognition.

Wing, WELCOME TO THE BLUE TERROR!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like you, I had a bunch of uniforms with red, silver, and gold loops over the years. BUT the funnest set to wear, and the set I had been waiting to wear since I found out oldest was going to be a son, were the blue ones I currently wear. You may be surprised at what you actually know about Cub Scouts. You know there are resources and where to look. You have the outdoor skills so that when your pack goes camping you can help the new folks prep. You probably have a ton of scouting stories to keep the Cub interested, motivated, and inspired. You will be fine. And CONGRATS ON BEING PART OF THE BLUE TERROR!

My pack too did their own leather totem b/c of the recall, and to a degree still does. I prefer the leather as it is easer to take on and off for washing compared to the hard plastic they use currently. Don't remember it being that difficult to take off the Progress Towards ranks as a youth.

not to change the subject, but Klingon reminded me of a friend in college who spoke Klingon and tried to get it accepted as his foreign languange for graduation. Didn't happen. I've also seen the Klingon Interpreter spoof strip, written in both English and Klingon. back on topic, if memory serves one linquist I knew tried to state that Italian is the modern form of Latin as all languages do evolve over the years, see Old English, Middle English, and modern English as examples (ever try and read Beowulf in Old English? )

Ditto what everyone else said,especially BEHIND a row of MBs. Saw one sash that the marker bled through the fabric and could be seen b/c of location.

Forewarning I am not an expert in this area or any medical area, but this sounds like Asbergers (sp) Syndrome. Friend of mine has a son diagnosed with this, and this syndrome is making the rounds in the local paper because of the autism awareness group my friend and his wife have started.

Actually Vatican City does use Latin today. Grant you they also publish stuff in Japanese, English, Italian, Spanish, French ,etc. http://www.vatican.va/latin/latin_index.html Again Latin non es mortalis, es immortalis.

Never heard of a den chief application. Now the DC must be a registered Scout, Sea Scout, or Venturer, yep Sea Scouts and Venturers can serve as DCs until 21 or they can be an ADL, AWDL, or ACM at 18, so that is the only app I know about for them.