Eagle92

BDP, Yep there are municipalities that have ordinances against sheath knives. Cary, NC is one such place. Also NC does hava n ordinacne against "Bowie knives", except fore educational purposes.

Eng, Actually that was a very good post, no flaming from me. While I do not have stats on accidents in sports vs. scouting, the sport that has more injuries than any other is actually cheerleading. Yep cheerleaders suffer more injuries, and more serious ones at that, than any other sport. Sorry I can not cite the article, but it came out within the past 3 years, and is in one of the professional medical journals. Was doing a lit search on sports medicine and concussions for a phsyician, and that article attracted my attention since I was a cheerleader Sr. year in HS and in college.

Yep sports are costly. Oldest takes karate. "Class A" uniform was $80, 2 t-shirts for "Class B" was $40, monthly fee is $80,and his first belt test, which actually covers White and Yellow is $100 ( yep they called the uniforms Class A and B, and yes they get tested for white, although they already gave it to him). That doesn't include tourneys or seminars. And I was informed that as he gets higher blets, he will need to go to seminars. but the positives are that he is gaining self confidence, making friends, and... recruiting for the pack!

Marine1, WELCOME TO THE FORUMS! In reference to your son and his den, I'd do the download method unless you are his DL. But by your name, I'm thinking you and your chopper are on call 24/7 whenever POTUS needs ya, so you may not be able to serve as a DL. Talk to the DL and see what's up too as things do get changed around and what not as special events happen. I know that since all of my cubs have Bobcat already, we skipped over most of the first meeting, and started work onthe second one instead. Also our 3rd meeting as a review of camping as we are going out this weekend. just remember; KISMIF Keep It Simple, Make It Fun!

Mpaul, May I suggest this instead: > and this > instead? Your suggestion looks as if the necker is upside down.

Eng, No one is laughing off $100 poles. Heck my tent didn't even cost that much, and I would be steamed if anything happened to the tent. But as everyone is trying to tell you, it is your son's responsibility and HE needs to solve his own problems. The possibility of him getting cold, wet and having a miserable camping trip if he doesn't figure out something on his own may be a good lesson for him to learn about taking care of gear. He needs to be the one that buys replacements by saving up his money. Also I know you are a parent, but have you ever been involved? have you attended meetings and paid attention to how the scouts run things? have you ever read any of the leader materials or attended any training? To be honest 95% of your complaints are really from a lack of understanding of the program and how it's suppose to be ran. I do think that if you look at some of the leader literature, and maybe sat through a training, you would get a better understanding. And don't think I am picking on you as I am not. i think you are doing a great job trying to prevent mom from pushing son. But blaming adults when you really don't know much about the program, i.e. your son getting athlete's foot, the poles, etc, is not very helpful and won't get you any sympathy.

Eng, Interesting article. I myself wonder at the expereince level of the leaders as I have a sad feeling that it is leaders with less than 3 years expereince since they said it involved varsity scout teams. Since most varsity scout teams are sports oriented and not field oriented, their leaders and scouts tend to have weaker outdoor skills from the limited contact I have had with a team, as well as from all the conversations I've had. That said if your point is to provide negative actions in scouting, may I do the same for sports, since you have stated previousy that you coached and you would prefer your son to do that instead? I can provide links to the college that didn't follow guidelines and had a student die at tryouts. Or i can prove a link to the HS football player that died last year or the year before that died. Or I can provide some stats on injuries, including paralysis, and cheerleading.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Maybe I've been in Scouting so long, that when I hear the phrase, "let's wait until Johnny reaches first class before we give him this type of assignment," it means that Johnny needs to master the basics of Scouting, First Class, before moving to more advanced things. Now I will say this, I had a hypothesis that at one time, First Class was required to be a DC. Looked online and couldn't find anything historical, although several troops, macscouter.com, and others do have First Class mentioned a requirement. Then I went to several of my books, includng my 3rd ed. SMHB, and no where does it have a rank requirement. Now I admit I didn't follow protocols to get my DC. I had my eye on a young man, told the CM I want him, and then went to the SM. MY personal requirements for DC, stressing personal requirements, is that he has basic scoutcraft down pat (usually meaning First Class, but if I got a gung ho Scout who knows his stuff and isn't FC yet, I'll take him), is mature, can work with the kids, AND keeps his grades up in school. Minute grades falter b/c he is over-committed, I don't want him, or her if a Venturer. School is the most important thing IMHO.

SMB, Please read the following part that you may have overlooked He (SM) also feels that Johnny is not ready and has in the wings an older Scout looking for a POR who has already had den chief training. Not wanting to be rude he tells the mother, let's wait until Johnny reaches first class before we give him this type of assignment. So where is the SM saying it's a rule in the example? MOM hears it as a rule, but that is not how it's presented. In all honesty, the SPL, SM, CM, et al do not, repeat do NOT, need to give a reason for denying an POR to someone. All they have to say is "No." without any reason or explaining.

Excellent example Beav!

Welcome to the forums. haven't looked to far ahead, so I haven't noticed error yet. Also I am using the new program as a guide, so last meeting was not even in the book as we did an intro to camping for the new Cubs.

Woa, Definately bring a copy, but all the lodges I have been in, 5 to date, have had very good records on received Vigil within the lodge, and some even have the list of Vigils posted online. Wife checked that info out on me when we were dating as my old lodge does post it.

Actually training is pretty standardized not only in the USA, but also in other countries. I did shooting sports in 2 different councils, and in the UK. Only differneces had been local laws (UK is much stricter, and the safety brief I did (had to use some Brit stats in the safety brief) As to why rifle ranges may be run a little differently from place to place, two biggest reasons off the top of my head are 1) not every range is identical and 2)not every district has the same manpower resources. For 1 I mean that some camps have established and maintained ranges with beams, firing stations, equipment lockers, etc. But then you got day camps that have to create temporary range with stakes and tentpoles, cardboard mats, and canvas backdrop. While there may be differences in ranges appearances, there are many similarities due to standardization by national. And that standardization deals with the most import thing in shooting sports: SAFETY. There is a an entire book on CS shooting sports, and NCS certified folks receive at least a 5" binder of info from NCS. They may receive more stuff as well as i beleive NCS dual certs you for BSA and NRA, but talk to a NCS Shooting Sports director for that. For #2 manpower can be a problem. I'ld love to have 4 adults in Archery and 4 in BB guns during day camp who are there the entire time. But I was lucky to get just 2 in each area, and older scouts who have shooting expereince, and were trained by the folks in running the area ( or in one case trained by the guy running the area last year). Finding enough trained folks can be difficult. Luckilyonly one certified person per so many folks is needed, and he can have assistants to help him. While I would love to have a 1:1 staff to shooter ratio it's just not possible. Why would I like one to one? For me one aspect of safety is having as many people focused on keeping the range safe as possible. I've found "personal coaches," folks beside each shooter, giving advice and making sure the shooter is safe. That's why I like council family camps wiht ranges: parents/guardians serve as the " personal coach." but in a day camp setting, not possible in my situation. Again the emphasis with shooting sports training is SAFETY! There are standard procedures that must be followed. They give you guidelines on building a temporary range, again with the emphasis on tSAFETY. But the training acknowledges that not every facility will have the same resources, bot facility and manpower.

SMB, best thing to do is PM Gary_Miller or bacchus as they are both LDS scouters. One cavetat as I have learned, not all LDS units are following the LDS program. To quote one LDS scouter, "The further away from Salt Lake City you get, the laxer the relationship with scouting is." gary and bac will tell you how their program is suppsoe to be run. Also check out this site on LDS scouting http://ldsbsa.org/ Now in reference to patrol methods, as KUDU will point out the BSA is not following the PM as envisioned by both BP and GBB. Also the concept of a NSP and TG have only been around since about 1990. While some troops do use them, others stick to the older mixed age patrols. Some units allow 6 month terms for PLs with no possibility of reelection, some do 1 year terms, some allow reelection, and some say you are the PL until A) you are booted out of the job or B) you don't want it anymore. And don't get me started about blue cards. never saw one as a scout, and only saw one for the first time as an employee for supply! You see while scouting is a national, ok really international, movement, all scouting is local.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

SMB, While certain items such as uniforms, advancement requirements, awards, etc do have established requirements by national that cannot be modified by COs, and part of that is the patent, copyright, trademark, whatever that the BSA owns, other things CAN be modified by the COs as per the charter agreement which I cited and gave a link to. Further an example has been given of a major CO that sets standard on who are its leaders, both youth and adult, still uses the older 3 year CS program versus the current 5 year model, and divides the troop into separate groups (11 year old only group that meets separately from the rest of the troop and 12 and 13 yos only.). All perfectly allowable by BSA b/c it's part of the agreement with the BSA and the CO. I'm sorry to say that whoever is telling you at national that a unit cannot place restriction on who can serve as a leader in the unit, both youth and adult either isn't understanding the question you are asking, or has not read the literature on the topic, or doesn't understand that the difference between a position of responsibility and advancement. Yes PORs are required FOR advancement, but they are NOT advancement and do not fall under the policies you keep citing. Also the person you are citing is an administrative assistant in the department. While administrative assistants are the ones who keep everyone in check and organized, they sometimes do not understand the big picture, or the ins and outs of scouting. Heck I had a nice "conversation" with my old boss in supply, a member of the national executive staff, on summer camp operations when supply was piloting having scout shops run camp trading posts. they couldn't understand why we had to be open during the day when "the scouts are in classes," and why we should close during camp wide games or close once the last camper left "so that staff can still buy things." Was able to convince the boss to stay open during the day, and close as soon as the last camper left on Saturday. But could never get them to understand why we should close during the camp wide games. They had to work Jambo to understand what I was saying.

SMB, The problem you have is that you are citing a rule that relates to advancement, not positions of responsibility. Grant you in the upper levels PORs are needed to advance, but the selection of who gets a POR is not covered by the source you are citing, as PORs are not advancement. They are leadership roles. As I stated a charter organization can make stricter rules in some cases, i.e. who serves in what positions of responsibility. They can also make rules and regs for the unit that may be in addition to BSA rules EXCEPT in certain things that require a national standard like advancement. For example a CO can require a leader to take their own version of YPT in addition to the BSA's version. They can set requirements for who can be a PL, SPL, DC, and any other position including adult roles. This is stated in the charter agreement. From this website http://cubmaster.org/charterpartneragreement.pdf The chartered organization agrees to Conduct the Scouting program according to its own policies and guidelines as well as those of the Boy Scouts of America. And The council agrees to Respect the aims and objectives of the organization and offer the resources of Scouting to help in meeting those objectives. I'll give you a few examples. In the troop growing up, the CO had the requirements for being ASPL and SPL were First Class and a minimum of 6 months as a PL. The rationale was that the troop needed someone who had mastered the basic scout skills, and had expereince running a patrol so that he could assist the PLs. In my current pack, the CO wants the CM to have had prior scouting experience as a youth. I'm working on that one.

Woa, FYI you go overseas and folks call the neckerchiefs "neckers"

2Cub, In the situations I've been in, it's either A) the CSDC shooting sports folks who are running the events for the district or B) the Summer camp shooting sports running the event. So i don't think you would be upset with yourself, would ya Seriously though, the RSO folks are the ones in charge on the range. period, end of discussion. What they want, they get, as long as it meets guidelines. Heck I'm the NCS certified PD, and I am also certified to run shooting sports for another year too, and do not interfere with the shooting sports folks unless absolutely necessary.

Sounds like a good troop intro campout, esp the food. One troop did a "survival" campout with teh Webelos. Took to a section of camp where they could cut, burn, and dig without concerns for LNT principles. We taught them lashings, and then had them build patrol survival shelters. Also did soem old pioneering games, i.e. chariot races etc. Webelos ate it up.

Disclaimer: I am one of those diagnosed with adult ADD. I was recently diagnosed, but in reviewing the literature on ADD before going to the doctor, I realized I have had the condition for a very long time. Now I have my theories on why I was able to control it before, but those are theories not facts. Since I am on 'legal speed" my theories include the following: 1)have lowered my caffiene in take drastically (I was drinking about 6-8 cups a day of coffee AND having caffienated soft drinks) 2) the nature of my current jon is that i am now in a constant flux of activities that I need to juggle instead of focusing on one thing at a time. Which is probably the biggest factor. Now a theory on the increase of ADHD cases that is being studied is the increase use of computer usage, especially the internet. Research is being done on the topic,a nd preliminary results do show a correlation between computer, esp. internet, usage and ADHD. So I am really up a creek since most of my work is done on a computer surfing the net for info. I am now on meds, and yes they help me tremendously. My coworkers and wife have both noticed a very big difference in my work performance, and I have too. Do I wish to go off them some day, absolutely. But at this time I will continue to take them. As an aside to DeanRx, know how to put a bug in someone's ear about doign a trial on the use of caffeine as a possible replacement for ritallin? I seriously think dropping from 7-8 cups of coffee a day plus 2 or 3 drinks a day to 2 cups and 1 drink a day had a factor to play.

CPA, every family is different. I've learned a long time ago that you never judge a book by its cover. But I also know how it can feel when you do something for someone in need, and see all kinds of expensive stuff. Things are tight in my family right now, and I may not be doign as much scouting activities as i use to. But I was able to go to the USS YORKTOWN at $80/ person b/c I used birthday money. It was a special trip for my son and I. Also I take the kids to get ice cream periodically as a reward for reading a certain number of books. It's not much, but it a little something. Sometimes you need the little somethings like a special drink or ice cream every now and then. But I do know it's frustrating when you see someone you are supporting, and they have top of the line electronics. Did a service project during HS in which we dropped off several bags of food at Thanksgiving to a family in need. Went into the house, and they had a top of the line TV, stereo equipment, video games, etc.

SMB, Ok I think I got your beef now and the key to your argument. You are, to put it mildly, upset that 30 scouts couldn't attend a training and were publically humiliated. I'd be steamed too. While I am a big advocatefro scouts fighting hteir own battles, and I would encourage them to do so, sometimes an adult needs to step in. Embarrassing folks is not called for. Questions I would ask at that point would be the follwoing 1) where in the literature the council put out for the training did it state rank and age requirements? If it is clearly stated in the flyers, then you may not be able to go to step 2 as it was published and should have been followed. OR someone should have called PRIOR to the event to point out #2 2) Where in the BSA literature does it state that DCs must be a specific age and rank? As you know you won't find one. Now once upon a time someone 13 and First Class was considered an older scout as they could go to Jambo and do HA activities. Don't knwo about HA activities, but at 12 they can now jo to jambo.

Just came back from the YORKTOWN this weekend. It's nice and I enjoyed it, and my son thouroughly enjoyed it as he didn't want to leave Sunday. I hope that she isn't on the endangered list. But I do know how expensive naval museums are to keep up. I know the destroyer isn't there any more, and it looks as if the yacht club is using their berth for boats. So that may be part that is lost. CLAMAGORE is small enough that they will probably keep her as they can use one pier for both the boat and the ship. Don't know how far Baton Rouge, LA is from where you are, but the USS KIDD DD661 is down there and she is the most authentically restored ship in the international historic ships association. With the exception of 3 things (and I aint telling ) everything aboard his is WWII spec. She does have overnite camping, and they assign a tour guide to all groups. Standard tour is 45-50 minutes, BUT if you are on an overniter, you can have as long a tour as you want. Overniters and some special tours, usually reunions, get to go into areas that are closed during the regular tour. Forgot to put in a disclaimer, I worked on the KIDD in grad school and that was my favorite job ever! Forgot to add, those guides go through extensive training on the ship. They know a great deal of info on her and living aboard a ship in WWII. Trust me on that one (This message has been edited by eagle92)

NC brings up a good point in ref to cooking. Webelos want to do it. At our CSDC this year, the biggest complaints from the Webelos is that they didn't do any cooking or overnight camping. The 1st year Webelos even said that they would be willing to help cook for the entire camp next year.

one thing to remember is that council are local, and reflect local norms. What may be common in one are of the nations, say having those under 11 using 22s and hunting, may not be acceptable in another part of the country. EDITED anotehr example would be a council's decision to ban camoflage clothing form their properties as it reflect that community's norms.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)