Eagle92

Base, I'd follow the advice a wise man once gave me in refernce to a similar problem: my fellow camp staffers were not doign their share of cooking and cleaning in the staff cabin. very simiply put you don't cook for them and you only clean your dirty dishes. After a week, the problem was solved.

No guidance whatsoever for non-unit folks. I personally would go with red and tan as it matches the commisioner patch.

Only guidance I can find is here http://scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/34048.pdf and here http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/10.aspx looks to me that if you do not have a pocket on the sleeve, you wear it pre 2008.

Sailing, Sorry if I spun the thread in the wrong direction. As to why there is an argument over Eagle and ages, here's my theory. Eagle has been the epitome of the BSA for so long, that anytime there is a perceived, or actual, deterioration of advancement requirements, folks get upset. Or even the threat of Eagle being replaced as the top award even. They do not want the standards downgraded, as they want to keep them high so that Eagle still means something. I'll give you an example. When it was announced that Venturing was coming about, the then director of Venturing made an announcement to approx 40+ Eagles in my PDL-1 class that the Venturing Silver Award would replace the Eagle as the BSA's highest award. Let's just say he was lucky to get out the room alive When the decision to define "active" as being on the charter and having the SM talk to you once a year came about, a lot of folks, me included, were upset. It's the Scout's responsibility to maintain contact, not the SM's, SPL's, or PL's. The Scout should be making the phone calls saying "Hey I cannot make it because.... Can you tell me what is going on?" The ease of getting Eagle on appeal is another matter that raises concern. Yes sometimes getting Eagle on appeal is warrented. Heck I had to threaten an appeal when the DAC wanted to deny my Eagle at the EBOR, because HE did not approve my project, but one of his predecessors from 4 years prior did (luckily the former DAC was also on the EBOR, and I bet they had a nice little discussion after I left the room for the second time). But if there is a problem that the troop leadership and committee sees, usually, but not always, there is a reason for it. Another is the signing off for POR credit, even if you really didn't do squat. That's a pet peeve of mine as when you are elected by your peers, or appointed by the SPL, you have a responsibility to them and you need to do the job. And the SPL and SM are in a Catch 22 situation b/c if they mentor and advise the scout, yet he doesn't improve, they have to give him credit, but if they remove him from the POR so as to deny him credit, then they are not allowing him a chance to develop and grow. Some 'young Eagles" do have that maturity and can the job, but others cannot. Another example is the removal of time requirements for the T-2-1 ranks. It is now possible for a new scout to go from Scout to First Class in as little time as a month, depending upon how active the patrol and troop is. I actually sat one one Scout's 3 BORs in one nite, after being a member of the troop for 3 months (this was when the time requirements were first removed and we didn't realize he could have 1 BOR covering all three ranks). While he successfully passed all three BORs, and fortunatley knew the skills b/c we were A) 'hiking and camping troop with summer as out busiest time of the year and B) the First Year Camper director and staff were excellent with high expectations. You see a lot of us think it takes time to learn, use, and MASTER the skills. Finally there is a grave concern that national may attempt to bring back the nightmare that was 1970s and urban scouting. You see bits and pieces of that with "Soccer and Scouting," the development of an "alternate field uniform" for those who don't like the BSA uniform, the one size fits all training that's been coming out, etc. Some of the older Scouters, especially Kudu and BP, lived through that, saw what a total and complete flop it was, and try to do everythgin in their power to avoid that from happening again. Green Bar Bill isn't alive anymore to save the BSA again, and there is no one at the national office to my knowledge that has his knowledge, skills, abilities, and influence to save the BSA again. Ok enough ranting, gotta get back to work.

I've made a few staves using some of the directions from the old Brownsea 22 handout(which is the sheet with the old style uniforms on it on inquirynet.com). On my last one, I didn't do everything and did some other things instead, and it is light enough for use still. I've gotten a lot of compliments on it, and have had folks ask for copies of the sheet I used to get ideas. My current stave includes: Ruler: 18" and then every foot thereafter. Rope: 54" of parachute cord with a fishing kit(sinker, 25'of line, and hooks) underneath the cord. Cord doubles as a handgrip too. orienteering holes large rubber bands Fire starter kit (matches and candle in foil covered in wax). Modifications lashed on a carabiner instead of using a hook (had problems with the hook last time I put one on a staff)It's been very useful. Put air-ground signals instead of morse code. Burned on the "stick compass" (sorry forgot the proper name, just know how to make it and use it) Added a Turk's head knot for decoration and symbolic reasons (I am a Cocky Curlew ya know ) Placed 4 shields on it: World Crest, Eagle, Vigil, and 100th Anniversary. My two older sons have similar ones to mine, but the oldest has been using my JLT staff lately as my youngest has stolen his.

Yep it's temp insignia, and only National and World Jambo patches go above the pocket for Boy Scouts, and Venturers of both genders, and male Boy Scout and Venturing leaders. All Cub Scout leaders and all female leaders may, stress MAY, wear 1, stressing ONE, temp insignia either on the pocket, or above the pocket. That's per http://scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/34048.pdf Now me personally, I would stick with the temp insignia on the pocket. As for the Tigers, Wolves, Bears, and Webelos Cub Scouts themselves, this has your info http://scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/34282.pdf http://scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/34760.pdf

Clem, Green Bar Bill had to come out of retirement in order to save scouting from the 1970s, and even then we are seeing the repercussions with new leaders with no scouting and outdoor experience. As for me, all EDGE is the latest fancy word for the old Tell Show Do method of teaching.

yet another reason for sewing on patches ok gotta sew on some patches for this weekend's campout.

Sailing, I thought I read somewhere that they were fewer than 20 QMs a year. I think there are several reasons why there are fewer QMs. 1) As you pointed out there are a lot fewer ships and Sea Scouts. Heck, when I wore my old Sea Scout uniform to promote my council's HA sea base, Pamlico Sea Base out side Washington, NC www.pamlicoseabase.org , at the national parade in DC, people had no idea that Sea Scouts still exist. very poor promotion form national, to the point that Sea Scout leaders have to create their own recruiting videos, and there is very little, virtually nothing really, on Sea Scouting on any of national's websites. 2)To be honest QM is actually harder IMHO, yep you heard me HARDER, to earn than Eagle. Lets look at some of the requirements just for QM that for me appear to be more challenging. Attend at least 75 percent of your ships meetings and special activities for 18 months. Note: Check with your ships yeoman. Much stricter definition of active for QM compared to just being on the charter for Eagle. Quartermaster Cruise: Take command of a vessel with a crew of not less than four Sea Scouts for at least 40 consecutive hours, including two nights. You must delegate and supervise all duties. During the cruise complete the following: Inspect the vessel for required equipment; supervise all menu preparation; prepare the boat to get underway with a proper checklist approved by the adult leaders; anchor, dock, and maintain course by commands to the helmsman; remain underway for an extended period during darkness; and discuss appropriate nighttime running procedures. While underway, perform the following drills: man overboard, damage control, abandon ship, fire, collision, and any other drills used by your ship. During this cruise no substantial errors may be committed. Or successfully complete SEAL (Sea Scout Advanced Leadership) training. Now that's in addition to serving in a leadership position. How many Life scouts have actually completely planned and supervised a trip? I know that those units that do use the patrol method probably have done this, but I know of units that haven't had Life scouts do this. Vessel Maintenance: Take charge of reconditioning or overhauling at least one of your ships vessels, or take charge of hauling out the principal vessel used by your ship. In either case, lay out a plan of the work to be done in advance, including an estimate of the materials, tools, cost, and time involved. How many troop quartermasters actually do this? Ok off the soap box.

My troop growing up provided tents, as well as the rest of the patrol gear. Everything was labeled with the patrol name and numbered (for whatever reason we only changed patrol names twice in my 12 year tenure, and one time was mandated by national with their converting of the Leadership Corps into the Venture Crew, now called a venture patrol). Each patrol member knew that they needed to take care of the tents as they would be using them again in a few weeks. Only time we ever had challenges was when we allowed Webelos to use them, one reasonwe do "survival camping" with them, and when we got some cheap deeply discounted tents that broke while setting them up or taking down on their first camping trip.

Clem, Not an urban legend as I know one that did Eagle at that age, and promplty left Scouting having met his goal. Let's just say that put a lot of pressure on me at family get togethers. But as others have said, Eagle is not the goal of Scouting. I got my Eagle at 18 years, 1 month, and 4 days due to scheduling of the EBOR. I finished the last requirement 5 days before turning 18, and spent the bulk of my time as a youth at Life Scout since I earned Life at 13. I could have earned Eagle at 13.5, esp. Since I finished my project at 13 years, 7 months. So why did it take so long? I was having Fun! You see although my cousin got Eagle at 12, and knowing my uncle the "Double Eagle" (uncle earned Eagle and the Silver Award as a youth) he wasn't cut any slack and did earn it, he didn't have the adventures I had. he didn't take a HA program at summercamp, working on MBs instead. He never when through advance leader training like Brownsea 22. He didn't get into the OA as a youth, but had to wait to get in as an adult. He didn't go to jambo, or do 2 Fifty-Milers. And I can go on. We're both Eagles, and no one has asked me how old I was when I got it, or him to my knowledge. But I think I had a lot more fun on the way to eagle than he did.

Spoon, #1 Welcome to the forums. #2 Was your camping trip at Camp Charles this past weekend? Your situation is very similar to mine, except the CM leaves in 2 months. We had someone agree to become CM, but the ex wife is remarrying and moving out of town, so we may lose him as a leader. I'ld step up, but am unable to due to family issues, so I will be a DL for a while. My advice, and this is what I would do, and have suggested to my current CM and ACM, is the following. 1)get a pack calander and budget set up ASAP. get your other DLs invovled and, if you know them, your committee invovled. 2) Meet with the Institutional Head, Charter Organization Rep. and Committee Chairmen. if you don't know who they are, contact the scout office and get the info. Technically COR and CC are involved in this process, but a lot of units I've been affilaited with have had hands off charter organizations. 3) Depending upon the results of meeting you may either have help in organizing a support committee, or you may have to organize it yourself. Hopefully the former and not the later. In reference to your questions now What do I or should I expect from the District Council? Your unit commissioner and DE should be able to help you with information like who your registered leaders are ( which may surprise you) and how to go about restarting a pack. It's in your DE's best interest to keep a pack going than to have it fold and restart later. Some momentum is better than no momentum. District/council should also offer additional training like Roundtables, Powwows, University of Scouting, etc. Take advantage of them. And don't forget activities like Pinewood Derby, Cubmobile, day camp, etc. Other than the on-line classes what should I need to take? BALOO Training, needed for camping. Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat, dependig upon program and facilities, and the above trainings. As the (stuggling) Bear Den leader too, what should I be focusing on? recruiting a Bear Den Leader. One of the tools that I am finding very helpful is the Den and Pack Program Book. It basically contains lesson plans for all your meetings. It's a great foudnation for organizing a meeting, and a rgeat tool for new leaders. If I get a board together what do they do? Get a copy of the Cub Scout Leader Handbook. It has job descriptions for every position a pack could have, including the committee. Good luck (This message has been edited by eagle92)

John, I need some clarification, do you think I come out with a ruler, or compasses in my case, for inspections? The answer is no I do not. The two compasses was when I was sewing on a patch on the CU and it just didn't look right when pinned. When I do inspections I try to be as friendly and as helpful as possible, hence the opportunity to fix things prior to the inspection, if they want to. Again i try not to put any pressure on them whatsoever, and I also try show them the information and sources when they asked. And sometimes even when they don't, just so that they know I am not making things up. If you think that offering them the chance to fix uniform errors prior to inspection is the problem, then I am sorry. My intent is to show them the correct information, and provide the opportunity and resources to correct it prior to the inspection, if they want to fix it as I do not force or pressure anyone to fix things., so that they can not only wear the uniform correctly, but also get the points for their competition. I did have a lot of youth correct things. But I also had several who didn't want to, and that was fine. If there was any pressure to make changes, it was usually the other members of the patrol who wanted to get as many points as possible, and the inspection is considered the easiest event to get points on, and as mentioned is has been the deciding factor in the competition. As for adults complaining about the inspection, I had two. One was that I was slower than in years past, and that was b/c I let folks correct things if they wanted to. I also had a SM upset b/c he heard the myth about a trained strip being worn all the time without a POR. When I showed him what the IG said, he then had no problems. As others have said, youneed to be friendly, helpful, and polite when doing inspections. I like Stosh's approach, depending upon how well you and your scouts know each other. But what I've found is that having your PLs and SPL doing uniform inspections on a regualr basis does help alot in uniforming. Now in ref to inspections and camporee, I personally would rather the deciding factor be on scout skills and time than uniform.

Actually I know a Boy Scout that wore a CSDC patch on his scout uniform. he served on staff.

Yep being the LK can be difficult. After this past weekend of camping onthe council level and talking to my son and wife, it can be very stressful for the family. Why I can't be more than a DL at this time. One of the things I've done to help my son is that I work with him all the time. Sometimes stuff we do at meetings is justa review with him. Heck sometimes he is helping the other cubs and parents. One of the nice things is that all the parents help each other with my group. that helps tremendously.

I've been known to wear and use GI surplus gear. Heck one troop I was with encouraged everyone to buy ALICE packs b/c A) we got them at cost and B) they had the snaps on the straps that could be used to secure the packs to the thwarts of a canoe. I also think the old BDUs/Combat utilities are excellent for doing conservation work and other heavy labor projects at camps. Also I know of several units that purchase surplus from the state for their units to use as these are SCOUTREACH units. But I wouldn't encourage mixing BDU pants with BSA shirt. Outerwear like a anoraks, field jackets, ponchos, sure.

Vig, If Scouting myscouting.com ever puts back the groups, look in the Uniform Police thread and read '...You Might Be a Uniform Policeman." And I admit I didn't use a ruler sewing on one patch, I used two compasses instead

Don't they realize that Camping MB is now required? Don't they "Scouting is outing?"

John, My district camporee since way before I got here has had a uniform inspection as part of the competition. When I was a DE, I was told that the uniform inspection has been the deciding factor in the past, and that since A) I use to work for Supply, and B) had no biases and favorites among the units, everyone asked me to be the uniform judge. I was told to be strict, by the inspection sheet. So I was. BUT I also knew that there is a lot of misinformation out their in reference to uniforms, i.e. JLT and Philmont Duty to God patches in Jambo spot, Once going through TLT you can keep your trained patch on regardless if you are in a POR, etc. Hence the Insignia Guide to answer questions that the inspection sheet didn't cover. Kinda hard to argue that the JLT patch goes in the jambo spot, when the IG says it is temp insignia and goes on the pocket. That's why I offered the kit so that the scouts could get it fixed if they wanted to. Most did, but some didn't. Also one bit of trivia in reference to temp insignia in the jambo spot. Per the sheet found here http://scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/34048.pdf Temporary insignia, including one current world Scout jamboree patch, centered on pocket. Only one temporary insignia may be worn at a time, and they are not required for correct uniforming. Cub Scout leaders and female leaders (emphasis in original) wearing the official uniform shirt or blouse may wear one temporary insignia centered above the Boy Scouts of America strip. That World Jambo patch being temp insignia intrigued me so i looked that up in the IG http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/10I.aspx A jamboree emblem is worn above right pocket by a Boy Scout/Venturer or Scouter who is registered to attend or attended the jamboree as a registered participant or staff member. Both a world and a national jamboree patch may be worn--one current national jamboree patch above the right pocket and one current world jamboree patch on the right pocket.

Having had this discussion at a camporee where the uniform inspection was part of the patrol's score for the competition, this is what I did. 1) Had copies of the inspection sheet If it wasn't listed on the inspection sheet then i went with 2) had my copy of the most recent Insignia Guide when disputes occurred, and one did. Seemed the JLT folks said the JLT pacthc goes in Jambo location, and every single JLT participant and staffer wore it there. Alsohad folks wearing trained patches without a POR patch To help correct problems I also bourght 3) a sewing kit to help the scouts fix their uniforms prior to inspection.

So can Cub Scout leaders wear the Cub Scouts of America tartan?

I am going to use an old quote that is as applicable today as it was written in the 1930s. This quote should serve as the foundation of everything we do: "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING!" (caps in original.) Are leadership skills important in havign youth run a troop, absolutely. BUT even more important is taking them in the outdoors, letting them learn to be independent of adults and work together as a team with their patrol. I respectfully disagree with folks who say leadership skills and teaching techniques are not important, as I think they are VERY important. BUT using the Patrol Method and the Outdoors are the foundation of scouting. This may be anathema to some folks, but I say that not matter what uniform the BSA decides on (even if it's only a T-shirt and jeans), no matter what is taught in advance leader training, as long as their is the Patrol Method, with youth actually running things, and the "OUTING in ScOUTING," this organization will survive.

Lone, WELCOME TO THE FORUMS! Everyone, Lone is correct in that the national stores do provide info on what is needed. We provide checklists, will work with small groups at a time, keep a list of what units meet where, etc. Service is something that is instilled in training, and we are expected to be knowledgeable and customer friendly. And if we don't know something, we at least knew where to look for the information.

Sailing, Those two pamphlets are infrequently printed and are a bin item, meaning the council has to order it for you. So they are very hard to get. DEs should have a copy of them in their red books though. I made the mistake of giving mine up when I left the profession to my District commissioner. That said, if you google the actual names of the pamphlets, using quotation marks around the title, someone has posted them on a website that allows you to read them and print them, but not save them. Sorry I cannot provide the link, but I found them using my old computer which crashed.

Supply Division actually did something like that at one time during the round up season. They offered a package deal on the shirt and pants, saving anywhere between about $15- $25, depending upon the combo and size ( short sleeve shirt and shorts was $15, Youth XL L/S shirt and Husky pants $25, you get the idea) This was approx. 2000-2002. If memory serves, local councils and other distributors got upset because they wouldn't do this and they lost sales. I think a few distributors threatened to stop selling merchandise.