Eagle92

I admit that while I am a proponent of Patrol Method, I 'm not an expert, where's KUDU when you need him , But here's an idea for testing out of it. 1) Make the test out event known in advance, have a sign up with a definite close out date in which anyone wanting to test out and doesn't make the deadline has to wait. I say make the cut off 4 weeks in advance at the most, BUT no later than 2 weeks in advance. 2) About 2 weeks in advance, organize "patrols" out of those registered, contact the folks in each patrol doing the test out, and tell them who their patrol members are with contact info, tell them what will be expected at a minimum, i.e Tenderfoot 8, and tell them that you suggest they meet to hold a patrol meeting and review the skills. that way A) they are workign as a patrol should work and B) they are helping each otehr out skills wise. Just remember BP experimented with 5 man patrols at Brownsea, so if you if you only get five, you can do it. Heck even with 2 I'd do it. 3) At the event, talk to them about the patrol meeting and ask them their patrol name, patrol yell, and bring the flag. (to make sure they have a flag and describe it adequately).

Kahits, I know traditions are hard to break, especially when the reason for stopping them sounds stupid and there is a common sense approach to fixing the problem, but I'd be very leary of doing Tap Outs. Don't have the publication in my possession at the moment, those books are in the attic where oldest son can't go nosing through them, but I read in one BSA publication that NO physical contact is permitted at all by national, and they included in their example tapping with a fan. Don't remember if it's in the Guide to Inductions, the proposed Call Out Ceremony that national came out with in the 90s, or oneof the operation reports, but it is written and was distributed.

Don't understand that one as you were expected to attend COHs whether you were receiving an award or not. Heck I remember on two occasions I had leave the COH as soon as the ceremony ended and the reception began in order to make HS functions, specifically Ring Dance and Christmas Dance. both occasions I had my date with with and had a suit on a hanger waiting to change into. A few thoughts. 1) Who is presenting the awards youth or adults? 2) Who is MCing the event, youth or adults? 3) Who is talkign about the troops activities? The more the youth are involved, the better attendance you will get.

that's an advantage we have for out district, OA leads the camp intothe campfire circle, lit the fire, and do the call out. Lasts less that 10 minutes tops.

Nut said "For Star, Life, and Eagle, there are tenure requirements that must be met. " Why I want tenure back in the T-2-1 levels. It gives them time to learn and practice the skills for a period if time.

Again don't have the book in front of me, But found 1 version online here: http://scoutmaster.typepad.com/2008AdvancementGuideBook.pdf Page 26 or 28 under Scout Buddy System A Scout must have a buddy with him at each meeting with a merit badge counselor. A Scouts buddy can be another Scout, a parent or guardian, a brother or sister, or a relative or friend. From his Scoutmaster, the Scout obtains a signed merit badge application and the name of the appropriate merit badge counselor. (emphasis mine) The Scout sets up his first appointment with the counselor. The counselor should explain the requirements to the Scout. The Scout and his buddy then meet as appropriate with the counselor until the Scout completes the badges requirements. So a SM needs to approve the MBC prior to the scout working on a MB with the MBC. Also a way to not recognize a MB that a scout gives you a blue card for, if you have serious questions, is to see if the MBC is a registered MBC. From the same page A merit badge cannot be taken away once it has been earned, provided the counselor is a registered counselor for the merit badge ( emphasis mine). Now if your district MBC list is like mine, it's a mess, so I would review whether the MBC that signed off of a questionable MB had ever been on the list.

So John, how do you really feel about it? Seriously though, i would give ya the citation, but I forgot that I loaned a good bit of my collection to a local museum doing a BSA exhibit. Just remembered when i came home and started looking for the book, when I realized the bookcases are empty.

Did the SM sign the blue card approving the Scout to go to that councilor? No SM Signature, no MB as he has to apporve it prior to going. Now if there is a SM signature, then he has to accept it. Once signed it by the SM prior to going to the MBC, the SM is out of the picture. As for the number of MBs they have earned, something smells fishy. Another reason why I want time requirements back for the T-2-1 ranks.

Clem, Some SMs want the results announced ASAP, soem want the elections held in advance of the Call Out so that the family can be informed in advance and attend, and some SMs go the old school route and hold elections the weekend of our Call Out. Also some SMs want to know and others want it to be a surprise for them as well. Me personally I like a mix: have the elections in advance, but don't tell anyone, except the ceremony team, the results until the Call Out. One twist I have my ceremony team do is that the day of the Call Out, we get folks from the home troops to volunteer to pick their candidates out from the audience and present the candidate to teh Chief. The Arrowmen get the names just before the campfire starts, so they know about 10-15 minutes in advance. As for the tap outs, yes I missed out on that. I though the lawsuit issue was a Scouting urban legend, desptie the sources who told me, until I read it in a BSA publication. beleive it or not, some states viewed it as a form of child abuse.

A few things. 1) It's a Call Out, not a Tap Out. Taps out have not been allowed since approx 1989 b/c some folks view it as child abuse. Don't ask but that is what I've been told and read in a BSA publication. 2) As stated above there can be a variety of reasons for it. Do keep asking, but here are some reasons why I or the chapters I have been in have not doen a formal Call Out. A) SM scheduled the election as late as possible in order to get an extra BOR or three done so that he could have more scouts eligible to be in the OA. Election was done between the formal Call Out Ceremony at fall camporee in Nov, and the Spring Ordeal in Mar. B) SM had a new troop that wanted to send a scout to the Ordeal ASAP in order to motivate the rest of the troop. Election was done early in the Fall to get the scout to the Fall Ordeal (Sept) 2 months prior to formal Call Out. and my personal favorite C) Scout was out sick when the ceremony was done, so he missed the last Tap Out Ceremony his lodge. ( and yes that was me.)

Unless things changed, WABs are advancement and need an advancement report filled out in order to purchase. backin the day, i was taught that the purpose of the WABs was to introduce teh MB concept to Webelos. You worked with a WAB instructor who had knowledge in the area, they were brought in by the WDL to teach the topic, and they signed you off. nearly identical to the MB concept.

Every unit is different based upon their financial status. I've been involved with a unit that covered registration, most trips (special trips like HA and ship overniters being excluded), and paid gas reinbursement for th person towing the trailer. BUT they were financially secure, doing 1 great fundraiser a year (setting up a concession stand and doign cleanup at a local fair). Another unit I was with it was every leader for themself. the unit was being "restarted" and did not have the finances to help. My current pack pays my registration, basic training fee if applicable, and ticket to the district awards banquet. But campouts and otehr activities I am on my own.

1) Look up free teachers' info on various topics. 2) Ask your local librarian what resources are available, both at the library, and online that they can find. 3) if you are doing a topic that their is a MB for talk to the MBCs. 4)Use your local Scouts and Venturers. I got an very unexpected surprise last nite when not only did my DC show up in his Grass Dance regalia for the Native American den meeting, but he brought a new OA dancer and his Venturing sister. New dancer dressed outin my reagalis, sis, who didn't bring her jingle dress b/c dad didn't knwo it woudl be ok, read stories, and the DC lent part of his regalia to my oldest to dress out in N. trad.

John, I also don't the practice as it can be abused. One thing that may put a damper on it is YPT is now required.

John, MBCs are still considered District members and do not appear on unit charters as such. However they can request limit scouts they will work with to a troop.

Stupid question, but here it goes: When did the CS Sports and Academics Program become advancement? Grant you I don't have a copy of the advancement guidelines in front on me, so things may have changed, but when I worked for supply division, the belt loops and pins were not considered advancement, did not need an advancement report to purchase, and were not restricted. So if a mom got upset b/c her cub didn't get his BB Gun belt loop, she could buy one herself. Also when I go to scoutstuff.org both the belt loops and pins ship within 3 days, unlink rank which "... a restricted item. Available only in your local council trading post or Scout Shop with required paperwork." That said, while I think it was ridiculous to make a video games belt loop and pin, Scouting is OUTING even at the Cub ScOUTING level, I would give the award, but not promote it.

Not a bad list of questions, but I do have concerns. 4. What is the boy:leader ratio at meetings and on outings? I would really like to know the number of PLs and Jr. Leaders to scouts than adults. 7. How are new Scouts going to learn what to do as Boy Scouts (camping skills, patrol activities, advancement, etc.)? Will they have an experienced adult leader working with them? Again the 'experienced adult leader" is a concern for me as I think it should be the job of the PL if in a mixed age patrol, or TG if in a NSP. The scout's older peers should be doing the teaching, not adults. 8. What is a typical Troop meeting like? Do you work on merit badges? Do you play a lot of games? I don't think MBs have a place in the troop meeting plan UNLESS it is part of an upcoming activitity, i.e. going over backpacking skills for a backpackign trip, going over canoeing skills for a canoeing trip, etc. And games are historicaly part of Scouting, all the way back to BP. 16. Is your Troop "boy-run" or "adult-run?" To my knowledge no troop will say they are adult run even if they are, except possibly a new troop that is working on it. The largest troop in my district is adult run, but they will swear they are not. But if you talk to the parents, they will say that they pick the troop b/c "it is more organized, the adults do more here, and I don't beleive in the 'boy-led' program as they (the scouts) need structure." (yes an actual quote from a parent I talked to). 21. How many current leaders are trained in: - Youth Protection? - Scoutmaster Fundamentals? - Woodbadge? Need to update the training a little 22. What are the expectations/requirements of new adults/parents to this Troop - as assistant leaders, committee members, special event chairpersons, event workers, merit badge counselors? I would change the wording to say what are the expectations of the PLC with new scouts. Then move on to the parents Also MBCs are district folks.

The Electives are additional activities that can be pursued by cub scouts, have requirements listed in the handbooks, and have been historcially part of the CS advancement program since as long as I can remember. For every so many electives a Cub does, they get an arrowpoint, which needs to be reported via an advancement report, and thus is considered advancement by the BSA. The CS Sports program came out in Aug 1984, and if memory serves, as part of the 75th Anniverasry of the BSA. I beleive their is a 75th CS Sports patch out there. Don't know it it was suppose to last just a year or not, but it was popular and expanded to Academics a few years later. Later they included some belt loops in Webelos Advancement; they didn't initially otherwise I would have never gotten the Webelos badge or AOL as the sports program came out the year I was a Webelos, and my pack didn't particiapte in the program. Now it's here to stay.

The CS Sports and Academics program, aka belt loops and pins, is not considered advancement, does not need an advancement report to purchase (mom ticked off that son didn't get the BB belt loop at a council family campout can go to the store and buy one), and anyone can buy them ( see real story above). Plus a CS can earn the BL and pin multiple times. I didn't realize that the council could track them. As for the Tiger Beads and progress towards ranks beads, again they are not advancement and no report needs to be filled out. In my opinion this is what I would focus on: Cub Scouts: Ranks Electives Activity Pins Special Awards, i.e. Summertime Awards, LNT award, World Conservation, etc. Boy Scouts: Ranks MBs Special Awards, i.e. 50 milers, LNT, World Conservation, et al. Sea Scouts: Ranks, Traditional, i.e. Apprentice, Ordinary,Able Quartermaster Ranks, Non-traditiona, i.e. Small Boat Handler and Qualified Seaman Ranks, Boy Scout, i.e. Star, Life, and Eagle MBs Special Awards, i.e. Long cruises, 50 milers, etc. Venturing: Recognitions, i.e. Bronze, Gold, Ranger, Quest, Silver, etc. Ranks, Boy Scout, i.e. Star, Life, and Eagle MBs Special Awards, i.e. Long cruises, 50 milers, etc. Look on the back of an advancement report, and that will tell you the bulk of the stuff that you can use. Special stuff that has their own application that needs to be turned in is also a good indicator. But items that anyone can pick up, i.e. CS Belt loops and pins, Nope, not advancement.

I am not trying to be negative, and it I came off that way I apologize. I know GSUSA is active in the community, I have a leader in my pack,but you never "see" them, except when selling cookies. that's a complaint I hear every time I got to Walmart after a pack meeting or RT from an older lady who use to serve as a GS leader when her daughter was at that age. To be honest I can see the point. Both the BSA and GSUSA do a service project on Memorial Day weekend, placing flags out and taking them in. If you look at the picture posted in the paper, it looks like a BSA service project, with sisters helping out.

I've been told that it is a week long Carolina OA Indian Seminar. CIS is AWESOME, Can't imagine what Indian Summer woudl be like. Wish I was going.

86Eagle, the biggest complaint about GS that I have heard is that you do not see them at all except when they are selling cookies, and only b/c of the cookies. the lack of uniform makes them invisible to the public in my neck of the wood. Ditto our onetime sister organization,Campfire USA, and other youth groups

Mixed aged patrols in my troop usually had 11-14, sometimes 15, years old in them. Our Leadership Corps usually consisted of 14-17 yos, with the very rare, how about 2 in the 12 years as a youth and ASM, 13 yo. The mixed age patrols selected themselves, i.e. you went where you wanted to go. The LC had requirements, i.e. at least 1 term, preferably 2 as a PL, elected by the LC, approved by the SPL and SM. Once you were on the LC you were in a troop POR for the rest of your career, i.e. QM, Instructor, etc. In fact if memory serves, LC member WAS a POR, and you were expected to be a 'jack of all trades" working with the younger scouts.

Actually I've had CS parents relieved when they ask what the knots mean and I tell them it's "recognition for a misspent youth" and working with boy scouts for too long. But I get your point. I know from personal expereince that someone wearing a STA and Dis Comm Key will make some mistakes in CS programming, even if trained in their new POR In all seriousness though, while a parent may not feel comfortable with a venturing leader with a bunch of CS knots, most folks who do have knots do appreciate training, and in all likelihood have done Venturing training if serving in Venturing leader position, and possibly wear a trained patch with the POR patch. They are dedicated to providing service to the youth,and will go out of their way to provide a quality program. Also the recognitions are from the Boy Scouts of America, and while the requirements may specify what PORs are held, the awards are from the Boy Scouts of America, not Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Sea Scouts, or Venturing, but the BSA. And thus they are authorized for wear with any BSA uniform. otherwise, why would ther be a Sea Badge knot for uniform wear, when the metal device is worn on the Sea Scout leader unifrom, but not other BSA uniforms, so a knot takes it place? Why create knots for Eagle, AOL, QM, and Silver, and at one time in different colors, unless BSA wanted the knots to be worn on any BSA uniform? Now if BSA wants to limit the # of knots, that's another thing. Right now only Sea Scouts limit the # to 6. And it is "recommended" that WB staff members limit the number to 9. Me personally I don't care what's on the uniform, as long as it is worn correctly. I also think that actions speak louder than words.

Boyce, Also add in author costs. The authors do a lot of research on their topics. I remember one author I met who's works were a vital paert of understanding the Cold War era, but the price of the books were so high b/c of his research, that you only found them in academic libraries.