Eagle92

J, Actually I think you should be able to trust a 14 scout to get the proper food for a trip. They should have done it several times already as part of their patrol. In fact they should be working with the younger scouts at thsi stage IMHO. As for getting the PM feel over just a weekend, I concur. That was one thing I liked about SMF: you were a patrol for a month: at the day long training covering today's This is Scouting and some SM Spec, the Model Troop Meeting nite, the patrol meeting to organize the camping trip, and the actual trip that covered today's IOLS. While breaking the old course into sections may make it easier to conduct, I think the PM got the short end of the stick. TN, Actually it would be WB 1919

Don't know much about Girl Scouts. But here are my impressions based upon conversations. 1) Lots of girls drop out b/c they are bored. This is based upon conversations I've had with young ladies when I talk up Venturing. 2) Girl Scout activities do not provide a challenge. Again this is from what I've been told by leaders. I've actually had GSUSA leaders come into a boy scout shop and buy materials to help out their program. 3) Not visible in the community, seems as if you only see them selling cookies, and only by the cookies.

Base, IOLS is suppose to cover the T-2-1 Skills. the syllabus can be found at this website http://www.woodbadge.org/Files/BSLS/SYLLABUS-Outdoor%20leader%20Skills.pdf Hope it helps. All, That was one thing I liked about the old SMF course, you formed a patrol that first all day Saturday session and were with that patrol for the weeknite troop meeting and the weekend campign trip. Oh forgot to add you were suppose to have a patrol meeting at some point to determine basic patrol duties, i.e. tent buddies, duty rooster, etc. Only time we did troop activity, if memory serves, was Saturday lunch (didn't want to take time away from the lessons in teh middle of the day so it was foil cooking) campfire, and Scout's Own on Sunday. We had enough staff that each staffer had their own station, and patrols hiked to the various stations. Wasn't a long hike as we were at a local state park, but we were far enough away as to not interfere with other classes.

In ref to WB v. IOLS v. SMF. I admit I did not go through WB or WB21C. BUT I have been told that both the Brownsea 22 course, as well as the JLTC I staffed, mirrored the old WB courses. If that is the case then here is my analysis. SMF when I went through it was a month long course. You had a Saturday class, a Weeknite "model troop meeting", and a 3 day (friday nite - sunday noon) campout. The Sat. class covered what is today This Is Scouting and some SM Spec stuff. The Weeknite was striclty SM Spec material today. The campout covered the material covered by IOLS today. The purpsoe was to give you the basics, as you were not expected to become a scout skills master at the end of the course. WB was different in that it was a weeklong course, focused on scoutcraft skills and a few other topics. Again if WB mirrored what I wne through and taught there was a high dose of scoutrcraft with some classes: mentoring, counseling, representing the group, etc. By the end of the week you were expected to be a scoutcraft master, being able to build a catapult with lashings, able to create a survival shelter, that in my case, able to withstand the outerbands of a hurricane, able to create compass courses and run them during day and nite, etc.

'83 Centenial uniforms, aka CUs, are the new tan and green uniforms with the "smokes pocket" on the left sleeve, zip off pants legs,new belt, etc. Basically someone wanted to get rid of all the red on the BS uniform. As for where the trained patch goes,it depends upon wheather you are wearing a CU shirt with the pocket, or older Oscar DeLarenta shirt ( aka ODL). ODL shirts without the pocket on the sleeve, the trained strip goes under and touching the POR pacth you are trained in. If you are wearing a CU, then it goes on the pocket flap above the POR patch. And yes there are 'uniform NAZIS" out there.

Cam, All I remember about my Pope Pius BOR was the butt chewing I got prior to the start of it by the head of the BOR. I was in a Catholic HS and my theology class mirrored the archdiocesan confirmation program. Pastors had the option of allowing those of us in Catholic HSs the option of not having to go through any of the parish's prep course, or making us go through a one day prep class. My parish made us go through a one day course, schedled the same day as my BOR. I was ticked off at A) having to go basically be examined for stuff I already knew and had been tested on, and B) felling like I was wasting the BOR's time waiting for me to get out of class. Well the chair was not a happy camper with my attitude towards my parish and gave me a new one. The after the BOR I was asked what school, told him, and all he said was "good school" When I worked Summer camp with him a fwew years later, i discovered he was an alum.

Kudu, We all know that WB21C has taken the place of WB, so that aint gonna happen. May I suggest a different name: Brownsea EDITED: Reread the post and something struck me. Prior to WB21C, Outdoor skills was a part of SM Fundamentals. So outdoor skills was part of basic SM trianing. My understanding, and again this is based upon what I've read and been told, is that the original WB was to give the SM advanced mastery of outdoor skills. (This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Mom, Once he fills out an application to join a troop and turns it in, he is a Boy Scout, no multiple registration allowed for cub scout and boy scout. As for your pack not awarding the AOL while he is in 4th grade is adding to requirements. If ALL of the requirements are met they cannot refuse to give it to him. A chat with the CM, CC, may be in order.

Base, Honestly I don't know. The pack is relatively new, 5 years old this year. We have had some serious organizational challenges the past year, and probably no one has looked into it.

Snow, It's a national store if they wear gold. While I am surprised that a national store is telling folks incorrect information since the IG is now out, and when I worked for national I was told it was the uniform bible to answer all your uniform questions, I am not surprised. Supply still continues to print out info that has incorrect pictures and information, even after repeated attempts of telling them the info is being contradicted by the IG or that's not part of the uniform, i.e. leaders wearing merit badge sashes.

How I could forget about the BORs for Ad Altare Dei and Pope Pius XII?!?!?! Yes Catholic scouts have to go through a BOR to get the award.

Well different religions have different requirements as to who can work with the youth. Also within a faith, there can be differences with who can work with the scout. I know for Light of Christ and Parvuli Dei, TC/ Wolf and Bear/Web awards respectively, you work with your parents. Working with oldest on Light of Christ currently. BUT when you get to the Boy Scout and Venturing Awards, Ad Altare Dei and Pope Pius XII respectively, a certified counselor is needed. I want to say the certification is standardized, but do not know for sure. In my diocese a counselor must be approved by the pastor, be registered in the BSA, take both BSA's Youth Protection Training AND the diocese's version of youth protection, and attend a training class. Now when I did my Parvuli Dei, it was basically coinciding with what was being taught at the parochial school, so it was a 'gimme" to a degree as we were already meeting the requirements at school. Just talk to the parents and have them sign the book off. But when I earned both the Ad Altare Dei and Pope Pius XII, I had a counselor, and a small group of us who were interested met and worked together. Call it class, call it a counseling session, whatever, but about 5 of us worked on it an met at the same time. We repated the process with 4 a few years later.

AJL, #1 WELCOME TO THE FORUMS!!!!!!!! #2 There has been a lot of gnashing of teeth over the issue of what color numbers folks wear in the Centennial Uniforms. It's neen VERY confusing. That's b/c when the CUs came out, everyone, stress EVERYONE, wearing the CUs was suppose to wear the tan and green numbers and trained strip. That was shown in all the literature that came out between May 2008 and April 2009, and even some publications afterward. BUT the same literature said you could mix and max uniform items of the ODLs and the CUs, without clarifying what specific uniform items. Some said you could still wear the red and white numbers and red loops on the new uniforms b/c of the mix and match policy. Others said only pants, socks, belt, and shirts counted, not insignia. And national never clarified the matter. Then to make matters more interesting, the Insignia Guide that covered the CUs didn't get published AND sent to the scout shops and distributors until MAY 2009. The current Insignia Guide, which isn't online yet, states that Cub Scouts, including Webelos on the CUs, and their leaders wear the red and white numbers and the new red and tan trained strip, the one that is the same size as the CU trained strip. Now the the inspection sheets do not specify which color are to be worn by whom, but leader checklists and essentials forms found here does state that red and white numbers are to be worn. http://scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/MaleLdr_UniformCklt.pdf http://scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/FemLdr_UniformCklt.pdf http://scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/Male_Leader_Scout.pdf http://scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/Female_Leader.pdf Notice no mention of the color of the trained insignia, but if you talk to a national, stress NATIONAL scout shop, they will tell you red and tan. or if you local shop or distributor has a 2009 IG, it's in there. Now here is the kicker, esp. if you got uniform police in your district/ council. Once uniform, always uniform, so if you accidentally got the wrong numbers and trained strip, and can't return it, you can still wear it and cite the uniform regs effective Aug 2008- April 2009, hence you are in a "vintage uniform." But if you are buying your uniform now, go ahead with red an white numbers and a red and tan trained strip. Clear as mud right? peri, When you did your WDL training, was it between Aug 1 2008 and May 2009? Heck I'd go as far as to say up to Dec 2009 as I know some local distributors were still saying the wrong thing b/c they had not been informed of the changes in regards to Cub Scouts and their leaders. In fact I'm the one who told told my local dsitributor about the changes, and she was not happy bc she told a bunch of folks the wrong info.

Welcome Dan, So how about a little more information on yourself and sit a spell, instead of just plugging a program? Because if all we wanted to do was plug programs here, then I would have to mention soemthing about PAMLICO SEA BASE http://www.pamlicoseabase.org/ PSB offers a 7 day kayaking trek, 9 day kayaking trek, Sailing Adventure, Sailing School, Fishing trek, Outer Banks Adventure, and ...wait for it...JET SKIS for those who meet prerequisites.

72, If that happens a lot of folks are messed over in my council! For whatever reason, charters are notorious for not having info update, despite repeated attempts to fix things. I know it took about a year to get my name on the charter as a TCDL, and I had to submit the paperwork 3 times to the council!

Short, So the number moving up at the end of May needs to equal 60%, not the number showing back up in Sept.?

OK I got a few questions on these things as I've been asked to help recognize some leaders who are moving on to Scouts in January. 1) Will SCOUTNET reject awards if the tenure does't meet SCOUTNET's records. Our charter has been screwed up since before I got here and some folks are still listed in the wrong position after several years, i.e. we have a WDL listed as a TCDL still and the other listed as a CSDL. Trust me the folks have repeatedly told the council the screws ups and the problems are still there, even after fixing it at recharters. 2)For the TCDL Award, one of the requirements states that "Graduate a TC den into Cub Scouting (my thought this is now outdated since TCs ARE full integrated into CS now) with at least 60% of the TCs become CSs." How is this interpreted? Does it mean that 60% of the TCs stay the entire year and move up in May, or does it mean that 60% need to be active as Wolves? I'm told that my pack loses members over summers, despite having a bi-weekly program over the summer. 3)For CSDL Award again tone of the requirements state "Graduate a minimum of 60% of the eligible members of your den into a Webelos Den." Again how is this interpreted? Does it mean that 60% of the Wolves stay the entire 2 years and move up to Webelos, or does it mean that 60% of those who are Bears move up? Also Do they need to be active as Webelos? 4) For the WDL Award, it states 60% move into Boy Scouts? Again how is it interpreted: 60% of the den when it started, 60% from the beginning of the year?

Vig is correct in that there is currently NO limit to the number of knots you are able to wear at one time, except for Sea Scouts and their leaders, which is 6. Currently the only place I have found the 9 knot limit is in the WB syllbus. It states on pg 26 It is recommended (emphasis mine) that Wood Badge Staff members ( again emph. mine) not wear more than nine square knots on their uniforms. So the 9 knot rule that may have been around in the past, no longer exist. WB staffers are recommended to limit to 9 knots.

Not only the cubs, but there parents as well, even if none of the knots are for CS knots except your AOL and religious award.

TN, Actually IOLS has changed little from the outdoor skills portion of the old SM fundamentals course. In fact all they did if memory serves was divide SMF into two component: the indoor intro and how a troop meeting is done, and the outdoor, i.e. IOLS. And from what I've seen, read, and done, the IOLS of today is about 95% of what I went through back in 1992 or 1993. And the 5% difference is basicaly the LNT stuff. If done right the participants are living in a patrol and doing those skills over the weekend, not just watching. Thats BALOO with the CS leaders. Grant you not everyone follows the book, unfortunately I saw that first hand, and that may be your council's problem.

At one time the BSA did "Drugs:A Deadly Game" I even saw some of that literature across the pond. It was effective, available via Suppy ( or was it a bin item that your council could order for free) adn I betwould meet the requirement. Also I bet there is a law enforcement officer or two somewhere in your district who would be willing to do a presentation on their own.

I got a crazy idea for a SCOUTER camporee event: The First Class Challenge. let's see how many scouters can pass IOLS skills

Doing a little surfing on the net while waiting for lunch, I found that 2011 NCS dates have not been set as of Oct. 2010.

I actually think Kudu would approve of trying to get PM incorpoated in the test out.

Base, Good point about PM. But I still am big on it at IOLS b/c SM Spec doesn't cover it enough IMHO, and I think having folks work together may show it a little better. BUT the training update did say the test out can be done one on one. As for demonstrating skills, that is specified in the training update Anyone who feels they can demonstrate all of the skills for Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class should contact their District Training Chair and schedule a one-on-one session with a member of the training team. http://scouting.org/training/trainingupdates.aspx Thinking about it, this could possibly be done prior to or during a RT.