Eagle92

What I was told is that the Tour Permit is a good faith type of thing in that it makes sure that you do have a copy of the G2SS, have people with the proper certifications for activities, etc. If you have the wrong person's name, or incorrect amount of insurance, and it was not deliberate, then you are good to go.

Whether or not the Tour Permit is needed for insurance or not, I'd file one as a CYA. Heck I did it as a chapter adviser, and if you look at the Tour permits, their is place to put OA bodies, i.e. Lodges and Chapters. Again I do it to CMA.

'90, I too had a problem with that when I bought one or two extra DAMs a few months back. Maybe national is changing the size of them? Naw i think it's poor quality control, kinda like the orignal NESA Life Member Eagle knots.

Here's my $.02 worth on vintage uniforms and following vintage regs. If you have a vintage uniform, all the patches on it need to be from that time period, following the regs at that time. For example my wife's 1950s Den Mother's dress has patches that are from the 1950s, or in one case a reproduction of a 1950s patch (which you would not be ablt to tell unless you knew it was a repro. Trust me I compared the city strip she has to the one I have in my collectrion and could not tell the difference). Her uniform has the city and state strips, fully embroidered red and white numbers, old Den Mother patch, and that's it. No American flag (wasn't on the uniform until the 1970s) and no World Crest (had to earn prior 8-1-1989). So if you want to wear patches all over your red jac shirt, I would make sure that all of the patches are prior to 1972. I have a friend who is a long time scouter, and his jac shirt has patches all over. BUT not one of them is newer than 1972 or thereabouts ( and they may be older than that .

Trainer, #1 Did you but it ? #2 are my comments about Charlotte v national stores right on the money, or are you pleading the 5th ?

Beavah said: Your average DE won't know that much about patrol outings, eh? Remember, the job of a DE is really not to support program, or even know all da different program features. Unfortunately that is true. The DE's job is the "3 M's: Money, Membership, and Manpower," and the order of those is based upon the SE's preference. Now there are some, not many but some, DE's who believe that if you have a strong program, then the Membership will grow. With Membership growth comes Manpower. And with Manpower, comes more Money. But to be honest those who believe that either get out rather early, or learn to change their perspective, or get stuck in program positions that do not allow professional growth, i.e. promotions.

here are some links. FYI it's called the Duke of Edinburgh's Award, Young American's Challenge http://www.usaward.org/ http://www.scoutingnews.org/2010/05/21/doe/

Kudu, FYI, my reference to 10 feet apart was in situations where the troop is just starting out, patrols are full of new and/or incapable scouts or PLs, or you are placed in a situation where you have 25 square feet per patrol. Thrift The goal for you entire troop should actually having them campout with out adults. If memory serves, the Duke of Edinburgh Award, which is common in the UK, Commonwealth nations, other countries and I believe is now being partnered up with the BSA now, REQUIRES a scout to go on a week long trip without adults. They are allowed a cell phone, which must be sealed to prevent use except in an emergency, and are on their own for the week.

Actually no it isn't. And that's because failure in scouting is in a controlled environment. You might be cold if you don't pack properly or forget the tents, you might get hungry if you didn't plan enough food or forgot to bring it, but you won't die on a weekend trip. As an adult and you are on your own without a SM looking out for ya, you could be in serious trouble. One way to get them to do things on their own is to use something call the "Socratic Method." When the Pl asks you XYZ, you ask them, " How would you do it?" Then you ask them a few other questions like " How do you think it will work out," "do you see any problems doing that way," " do you think there is a better way,' etc. The key is to let them think it out, using their reasoning abilities. And when they screw up, and it will happen, don't be angry at them. rather ask them questions on how they can do better next time.

Thrift, My understanding is that a tour permit is for the UNIT'S planning purposes, not the patrols.

One of the things my troop did was give patrols some freedom. When we could we camped away from each other, do their own activities for a while, etc. Depending upon the trip, the older scouts would go do their own thing with minimal to no adults around. By minimal I mean a 18-20 y.o. ASM who was still considered "one of the guys" by the older scouts.

WV, #1 WELCOME TO THE FORUMS! #2 A great little read if you can find it is the 3rd ed. SM handbook, in 2 volumes. While scouting has changed since it was written, it is a definite foundation for any troop. #3 Scouting is local and there are literally 100s of ways to solve this. Which is right, well that's up to you to decide. Me personally I like the mixed age patrols as when my troop did a NSP, it didn't work too well. BUT it seem s that you already have a patrol formed. I would talk to your APL and see if he would want to work with the NSP. I hate appointing positions, but maybe appoint him PL and charge him with having his patrol up to speed so that they could take over in a few months. And then he can rejoin his patrol, if he and the NSP wants him to return. One thing my troop did was every six months, basically when it was time for elections, we allowed scouts to switch patrols. Thsoe that wanted to move could, those that wanted to stay could. For the most part, PLs remained the same, unless they moved up to the Leadership Corps, roghly a venture Patrol today. Good luck

Ok,1, 10 man patrol. Don't try 2 5 man patrols as BP tried that and went with the 6 man patrol idea instead ( 2 5 man patrols and 2 6 man patrols on Brownsea Island). I believe GBB was the one who modified it to 8 man, but I digress. In essence you are a PL. Best job there is IMHO. You need to really sell your patrol on the patrol concept. You need to be organized and work with everyone. You need to use your powers of persuasion and reason to get folks involved and doing what they are suppose to be doing. Also you need to have a friendly chat with the SM. You need to share your vision with him, you need to talk about how you want to have a boy led troop with the youth doing the work instead of him. Make it seem as if you are trying to BE a PL and make his job easier.

Folks, A few things 1) I did something stupid, I asked for clarification on this topic at Myscouting.org. A wise poster here has stated ' be careful what you ask for from national." and I have heard that national was thinking about doing away with it. 2) The SM has to approve of the activity. Also the parents will need to be OK with it too, and that may be a hard sell. 3) I admit I've never done a patrol only activity without an adult. When I was a PL, I only did one activity, and had to have 1 adult with us (pre YPT, yes I am old). closest thing was backpacking 2.5-3 miles on a scout reservation away from adults with my Brownsea 22 Patrol (Brownsea was the original NYLT course, and I am a Cocky Curlew) We did have older scouts about 1/2 mile away, and another patrol 1 mile away. I had a hard time scheduling the hike, having to deal with multiple school schedules and the troop schedule. the troop was very active and gave the patrols a lot of freedom. 4)Patrol outings can include hikes, camp outs, field trips; anything except the regular patrol meeting and shopping trip. Question do patrols have patrol meetings outside of the 'patrol corners" of their troop meetings? I'll be honest once I joined the Leadership Corps, what is approximately the Venture patrol today, we didn't really meet outside of the patrol corners. he could get business done in the 10-15 minutes we had, and we didn't do the group shopping, placing it all on one person for some trips, eating as guests of the patrols on other as the case may be. EDITED: You really need to PM KUDU as he is the Patrol Method expert. Some say Green Bar Bill was his SM (This message has been edited by Eagle92)

SPL, Welcome to the forum! Always good to get the "yutes" input. You may be fighting an uphill battle. I've found that in our culture, people want to "baby" folks: from having parents call and complain about their adult child's college grades, to having 25 year olds being considered dependents for insurance purposes, etc. Heck one scientific survey stated that we are still adolescents up to age 25, maybe why insurance will cover up to that age shortly. Adults do not want to allow kids to grow and learn, to "take chances, make mistakes," as one of my kids favorite book and video series encourages. I have to tell my CS parents to relax and let my DC work with the Cubs. Anyway back to your "challenge" ( "there are no problems in Scouting, only challenges and opportunities"). You have received some good advice in avoiding a "me vs. him situation." 1) Do you know what training your SM has? If he is fully trained: This is Scouting, SM Specific, and Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills, he should, stress should have a firm understanding of the PM. If he is trained and not following the PM, there is a problem. If he isn't trained, that is something that needs to get done by him ASAP. 2)How large is your troop and what kind of set up? Is it a large troop with multiple patrols, or a small troop with one patrol? If large, are they mixed age patrols or done by ages, i.e. NSP, 12-14 YOs, 15-17 YOs? If you have a large troop and a good bit of experienced scouts in troop roles, I'd summon a PLC, and include those older scouts. Make sure to invite the SM, and if he cannot make it, do it anyway. Come up with a game plan to organize the troop. Start talking up the patrol method among your PLC, and I'd go further and read up on some of the older BSA literature on patrols. 'Green Bar Bill" aka William Hillcourt (the man who saved Scouting IMHO) was a prolific writer on the topic and did a series in BOYS LIFE once upon a time. GET HIS STUFF! (caps for emphasis, not shouting at ya). If the youth want it, and work at it, the SM should come around, esp since it makes his job easier ( Favorite patch has a SM with hands in pockets in an "I don't know" pose and the caption " Don't ask me, I'm only a leader.") 3) Meet with the SM and talk about what you learned at NYLT and about what the Leader's Orientation talked about. If he didn't attend the Leader's Orientation, talk him into going this year. 4) Talk to your treasurer and see if you can get your SM a Christmas gift: the 3rd edition SM Handbook ( it's 2 volumes long) It is THE definitive work on being a SM (OK Kudu and others may call me a heretic on this one, but it may, stress MAY, be better than BP's AIDS TO SCOUTMASTERS). It is a very good read, and while some changes to Scouting have occurred over the years, it is a foundation for the PM and everythign scouting.

From the online version of the Guide to Safe Scouting (G2SS) http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx#c Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings 1. Two-deep leadership: Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. (emphasis mine) Coed overnight activities, even those including parent and child, require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. Yes tour permits say that "Boy Scouts of America policy requires at least two adult leaders on all camping trips and tours." But look at the dates on the form, 2009. If you look at the printed version of the G2SS, it states, Get the Latest Information! The online version of the Guide to Safe Scouting is updated quarterly. So the online version of the G2SS was last updated this year. Also if memory serves, older forms of the Tour permits stated a patrol could go out without adults. As I stated over there, there was a nasty rumor that national was going away with the patrol outing. Apparently the Health and Safety folks started looking at removing the patrol outing exemption in 2008 after an incident in which a summer camp left a bunch of scouts out by themselves. Bug difference between an organized patrol that the SM knows going out with his/her approval, and a bunch of scouts who just met doing the same. Even the troop created for my Canadian adventure met regularly, trained, and was organized by patrols.

There weren't any Eagles in my patrol, or in the other patrol with us for that matter, when I was up in the Canadian wilderness when I and another scout got hypothermia, but both patrols took care of us and knew what to do. Adults were there, but didn't really do anything as the patrol was doing what they were suppose to do. BASIC SCOUTCRAFT AND THE PATROL METHOD DOES WORK!

If it was a BSA COPE course, then they violated a very important safety rule, i.e. 13 years old, unless things have changed since I was a COPE Director. As for the rest of the stuff you have dealt with. In all honesty I would leave and start a new pack. They are not following the Patrol Method, they are not following the Advancement Policies (no testing during BORs, no SM or ASMs on BOR, if denied a rank at a BOR then a written plan MUST be given to correct the matter, ad nauseum) they are definitly not following the Ideals method ( trustworthy, helpful, friendly, courteous, etc), they are not following the Leadership Development Method ( i.e. picking SPL in stead of letting the youth decide)They are not follwoig the OUTDOORS Method in letting the kids on their own. Shall I go on? I'd start a new unit. If create a good program with adults who understand scouting and support the program, you will survive and prosper.

Sound like you have some serious problems and need to find/start a new troop. Didn't read the entire thing when this really caught my eye and needed to reply ASAP. The campout is all about ropes challenge course. more than half is new boys, ages 11-12... and SHORT. Well, my son gets up on the platform and tries his hardest, but is not tall enough to reach the saftey lines and transfer his carebeeners. After half an hour he comes down, not defeated, but just can't physically do it. After that the instructors send up a tall boy with a short boy... Please tell me this wasn't a BSA COPE COURSE? BSA has strict age guidelines, i.e. 13yos, on ropes courses becasue of just what you described. If it was a BSA course then some serious rules have been broken. And if the "instructors" were not certified, then a major liability issue has just arose. More later

Be advised that there is now a recall. Minneapolis, MNKatadyn North America Inc. and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) have voluntarily recalled camping stoves and equipment over fire hazards. About 5,300 camping stoves and equipment in the United States and about 24,000 in Canada were recalled on November 22, 2010. The recall was initiated after discovering that the damaged fuel lines and/or O-rings may cause fuel to leak, which poses a fire hazard to consumers. The CPSC reported, This recall involves Optimus Nova and Nova+ camping stoves and equipment, including the stoves fuel pump and spare parts/repair kits. The stoves are black metal, measure about 6 inches in diameter and 3 inches high and can be used with multiple types of fuel. Stove serial numbers QA000011 through QA007313 are included in this recall. The serial number and Optimus are printed on the side of the camping stove. Pumps and spare parts kits also were sold separately. Pumps have a green open/close valve. Spare parts kits model numbers include 80163051, 8520, 80176321 and 8511 and are printed on the packaging. Consumers are advised to contact Katadyn to receive a free repair. For further information concerning the recall, consumers can contact Katadyn at (800) 755-6701 between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. CT Monday through Friday. Consumers can also register for the recall at www.optimusstoves.com/usen/. http://www.justicenewsflash.com/2010/11/25/recalled-camping-stoves-and-equipment_201011256263.html

Are traditional skills like pioneering (knots and lashings)in an age of plastic sliders on tents, velcro, and bungee cords outdated? Ask the Marine who's slider on his tent broke while in the field and used a tauntline hitch instead? Or ask the shuttle astronaut, who said he would use a specific lashing to fix something temporarily, only to wait 2-4 hours while engineers on earth figured out that, yes that lashing would work. Are traditional skills like orienteering (map and compass work) outdated in this age of GPS? Ask my sister whose GPS unit ran out of batteries, the lady I met whose GPS unit told her the most direct route to place, but if she looked at a map would have cut her 5 hour trip to 3.5 hours, or ask me how I managed to planned a return trip home with 3 kids when the original route was impassable due to severe weather conditions and I had not GPS unit? Are traditional scout skills like using wood tools and firebuilding outdated? Ask the guy who had hypothermia in the Canadian wilderness whose group had to build a fire with wet wood in the rain (ok they had a little help with the firestarter in my survival kit ) Are traditional skills like first aid and lifesaving outdated? Ask the boy who was rescued by the scout who knew lifesaving techniques, or the girl who was treated by a scout until EMS arrived? So are traditional scout skill valuable in the 21st century? You be the judge? As for leadership being an important element of Scouting, I must respectfully disagree with Kudu on this. I think it is. Using the Patrol method as envisioned by GBB, the youth elect the PLs, and they serve at the whim of their patrols. PLs are not doing a good enough job, the patrol can elect a new PL. And while the current method of selecting a SPL has have changed over time, I do like the fact that the SPL is responsible to the troop as a whole. They don't think he's doign a good enough job, they don't reelect him. So leadership does have a place in scouting. If you know your scoutcraft, and use the patrol method you will bear some responsibility in your patrol and troop: QM, Instructor, PL, etc. One of the challenges as I see it is that folks want PLs and SPLs to be perfect and not make mistakes. PLs need to be self sufficient and do things without adult about so that they can " take chances, make mistakes." The PL who approves a menu, not realizing that the portions are way to little, will learn to go over things better. The PL who doesn't listen to his "expert" scout on orienteering, and leads the patrol 1/4 mile off course learns form that. The SPL who places his two "mischievous" patrols too close together learns from that mistake (after dealing with the shaving cream everywhere). Part of leadership is teaching those underneath you. Teaching those scouts who are T-2-1 the basic scout skills. Teaching your APL or ASPL how to take over in case something happens to you. Part of it is using your resources: materials at hand, expertise of those scouts, etc. And i can go on and on. My employer is big on leadership and tries to promote from within. And My department is charged with education, both for people doing their jobs, and for helping to prepare them for leadership roles. My boss is constantly being amazed at some of the things I have done and learned in Scouting. And I admit some leadership principles which I find so elementary b/c I did learn them at the 11-13 years of age, and had to implement them in the 13-20yo range (OA and Sea Scouts), that I am amazed that folks really need to learn them as adults. Sorry for the ramble.

I'm just curious, why would parents and sibling want to follow their sons to camp? I for one can't wait until my three can be at summer camp for a week by themselves. But what I really can't wait for is when the youngest turns 15 and all three can work summer camp. I bet my food,electric, water and other bills go way down for 2 months

In ref to holding ______ until you get Eagle. I've seen it done twice. One scout got Eagle and quit. The other, well let's just say he rebelled. Got all the way to Life, had enough MBS to get a few palms, but refused to do his project. That's all he needed a project.

As a former COPE director who helped build part of the COPE course, that is SOP for building a course to my knowledge. Construction crews have to bring in heavy equipment and supplies, and usually you need a large clear area to set up and build the course. Also there are safety standards that do need to be met, including distance from objects. Not a defense for clear cutting, but giving an FYI on why some new courses have wide open areas. Usually you do have regrowth, but it does need to be maintained for safety purposes. Yes it wasn't fun clearcutting and burning the area that would be the COPE course, but it was necessary. I do have a few questions. 1) was there any type of problem with the trees? I know at one of the camps I worked at, there was some type of pest that was destroying the trees. Long story short, the state forestry service came in, stated that we needed to do some clearing to save the most viable trees. Large tracts of the reservation had only 1 tree in a 30' radius, and if memory serves, a "service road" was put in to separate the infected area form the uninfected area. Was not pretty. Some logs were harvestable, and the money went into much needed work at the camp: dam was rebuilt, building refurbished, etc. 2) Are there plans to build new facilties in the camp? I know that one camp did do some major cutting, don't know if you wuold call it clear cutting though, in order to build new campsites and buildings. In essence they were going to build a whole new camp. 3)Are they working in conjunction with the forestry service? In reading the article, I know it states that 'Some experts say its harmful" or words to that effect. But there are others who don't. Form my Eco History ( yes there are such courses) I know that there are two schools of thought on conservation, and one of the key dividing points is the use of cutting as a means of forest preservation. the Pinchotian (sp)school of thought views it as land management and a means of preventing forest fires, overpopulation of native fauna, etc. While the other beleives that you need to leaves things as they are an let nature run its course.

Thrift, Currently, and I stress currently as there was a nasty rumor about this topic, a patrol with the SM's and parents' approval can go on an overnite campout without adults. And it would be an official BSA event. Now grant you I have not seen it done. My troop as a youth was a "hiking and camping" troop that had things going on every month. It was difficult to plan separate patrol activities, other than meetings. Closest we got to a patrol event was a patrol hike, and then the SM wanted an adult with us (pre-YPT), which I assume is b/c the patrol would be considered a NSP today (we were working on Hiking Skill Award). Luckily the adult, actually he was one of the parents, was a Scout as a youth, and didn't do anything but stay "in the rear with the gear," and let us handle everything. Planning and organizing that hike was a PITA b/c I had to deal with 3 separate school schedules AND the troop scedule. So finding a date to it was difficult. What was funny was that when I planned it, I calculated it based on GBB's "Scout's pace" of 5 miles/hour. SM said I might want to adjust it a little since I had new scouts, so I did. BUT we made the 1/2 point in the origianl time slot and had to "eat up time" there. When we left at the scheduled time, we 'dragged along' and still made the end point ahead of the scheduled time. needless to say it was a learnign expereince, and one I was glad to do as it did help later in planning troop activities.