Eagle92

Sailing, If you haven't met Keith yet, and I think you did at Jambo, you will know that he is a good bloke and WILL bring this to the appropriate attention. He's a great guy, and gets things done. if you email he will respond. If you snail mail, it may take longer, but he will respond.

BD, I hate to say it, but it is kinda hard to enforce a 'camo ban" when national supply has sold within the past 2 years a camo pack.

I would go further than anti-intellectual; it is a "gimme, and gimme NOW" society. Folks want things handed to them. When I was teaching, I had students expecting an "A" simply for showing up to class "because my job is paying for me to go to school." I have had students who do job shadowing at my work expect that the can go anywhere they want to go, at anytime they want to show up, wearing whatever clothes they have on. They expect to have everything set up in a few minutes notice for the next day, or even the same day they turn in their paperwork!

Gary, I did a quick online search as I no longer have the book. Unfortunately coat and tie instead of a uniform is allowed. P. 29 of the 2008 ed of the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures states: The Scout should be neat in his appearance and should be in a coat and tie or his uniform (emphasis mine), which should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. Now I don't agree with it as I think a uniform should be worn, sven if the Venturing crew's distinctive ID uniform is a tie-dye t-shirt or polo with jeans as their uniform. But that is the rule, and if asked to sit on a EBOR, I'll follow it. EDITED: here's the link http://scoutmaster.typepad.com/2008AdvancementGuideBook.pdf(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

While the BSA doesn't ban sheath knives, some locals due ban sheath and fixed blade knives. Several locales in NC doe that. My question is this: how do the local restaurants get around this law?

My thoughts. 1) Make it attractive for companies to remain in the USA. Whether that it reducing corporate taxes, tax credits, etc. if companies can either reinvest their earnings or pay their stockholders, they will remain. 2)Increase economics education at the HS level. There are folks who do not comprehend simple supply and demand economics. 3)get rid of the new healthcare law and start from scratch. If 111+ companies are getting waivers to opt out of it's provisions, including proponents of the new law like AARP, and various unions see http://www.hhs.gov/ociio/regulations/approved_applications_for_waiver.html You know it's a problem. Heck if someone who's JOB it is to know all the various state and federal medical laws can't tell you what the new federal law actually says, you know there is a problem. 4) Union leaders need some common sense and actually work with companies. I'm from a union family, and there are a lot of problems with senior leaders. I have read and heard of abuse from union leaders, and know of one company that shut down completely because of a union.

Cent, 1) WELCOME TO THE FORUMS! 2) I agree with Nike, everyone of your scouts should be able to do the ceremony, not just a select few. I know that when I worked summer camp every single staffer, except dining hall staff, had to practice doing the flag ceremonies during staff week AND had to be able to do it properly with only a few minutes notice. 3)In reference to campaign covers, aka "Smokey Bears," they are still BSA authorized. What I've seen done, and did with the ones issued to me by my old council for completing Brownsea 22 back in the day and staffing JLTC (the predecessors to NYLT) which were government surplus hats, was to get leather scout hatbands and put them on the hat to cover up the ribbon band. For the one that is "field experienced" and been shot at by German scouts, I use a boot lace for a chin strap, the newer one in better shape fro formal ceremonies has a scout chin strap. Now Scouts can wear the First Class Pin on them irregardless of rank, and adults wear the pewter pin. Me personally I would love the BSA to allow the actual rank the scout is to be on the hat, and make the pins larger too. Now in my troop, and in my council for that matter, as a youth, the only folks who wore those smokey bears were Wood Badgers and Brownsea 22 (and later JLTC) graduates. BUT I have seen photos of troops wearing them as their uniform hat. So if you want them, and can find them cheap, GO FOR IT! As why the smokey bear is OK, remember it was a western hat before being adopted by the military. Also originally the BSA wore uniforms almost identical to the militray, and the BSA is still authorized to wear military uniforms with BSA identifications IF they choose to. At the moment, only the Sea Scouts do so, i.e. "crackerjacks," "dungerees" etc. 4) If your troop decides to go with a beret, then you can do it. If you go that route, I'd pick one color for the entire troop and customize it with the troop info/logo. If you wanted some patrol individualization, put patrol medallions on them. I personally wouldn't go with the patrol customization, sticking with a troop version. Then again I usually wear my smokey bear. Only time you will catch me in a beret is if I am wearing my gray Air Scout beret from the UK in my Venturing uniform. 5) as stated, color guard patches, pogey cords, gloves, etc are specifically banned by BSA regs. Wouldn't go there. I know that my old council did have some type of color guard training program, and they issued a temp patch saying you completed the training, BUT not that you were a color guard member. 6) I applaud your effort to get scout color guards up to par with other organizations. BUT I would focus on your entire troop to be able to do that, instead of a select few. Talk to the SPL and PLC, see what they think, and if they are on board, help them out. 7) If you want to use a drill manual, I'd use the current Sea Scout one found on http://seascout.org/ Type in Drill manual in the search box and it will hook you up with the book. It is based upon NAVMC2691. OR go Old School Scouting, and have your SPL and PLs teach the old scout signals. Older scout manuals written by Green Bar Bill have them, and I bet KUDU's website http://www.inquiry.net/ has them on there as well. My troop did use them growing up. Again good luck and hope it helps!

Ditto what Short said, the OA SHOULD be doing camp promos. Now I know that the big emphasis in the past was troops and crews, and some lodges are still in that mentality. BUY there seemed to be a push by national to get OA involved in Cub Scout Camp Promos just as I was leaving hte CA position to be a TCDL. I do know that when I do Cub promos, I talk to the Lodge chief to get permission to use the Lodge totem and name since I am still registered with the lodge.

Well if your pack has been running like mine has, then you have adults who are doing 2-4 jobs and focusing on essentials like advancement and meetings, and leaving other stuff out of the picture. Then again some pack leaders just don't know about the extras. And Still some packs just dont' have the budget. IMHO here's the key to wearing whaat you have: when YOU start feeling uncomfortable wearing everything that you have earned or are entitled to wear, then don't wear it. Also if it becomes more of a hassel to wear it. For example I can wear service stars. But I have found that they go missing fairly easily, and you can only buy the program color backings in packs of 12 if memory serves. It adds us costs wise fast. Knot devices are the similar: hard to put on and keep on, and go missing fairly easily. Heck at one point I was using erasers instead of the pin backings. My only advice is to a) follow the insignia guide and uniform inspection sheet and b) don't wear the "extras" i.e. arrowhead necklaces, feather dodads, multicolored shoulder loop, etc that I have seen some folks wear. EDITED: there is a speech out there that BP refers to it all as "swank"(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Give your DE a call and tell him you are about to fold and he will be losing some numbers, I mean members. THAT WILL GET HIS ATTENTION! 1)Do you have a unit commisioner who can help? 2)Do you have a District Commissioner who can help if there is no unit commissioner? 3) have you attended a Roundtable, and talked to folsk there? The Charter Organization (CO)actually owns the unit: supplies, money, etc. They are suppose to help you get leaders, supply a place to meet, represent the unit at both the district and council level, and a bunch of other things. Some COs get it, must in mu experience don't. Some are involved, most don't want to get involved, and some just want to let the unit die a prolonged, slow death as they do not want scouting there at all. If memory serves, there is a Charter Organization Representative fast start on MYSCOUTING.ORG that may be able to give you some good answers.

Eagle793 remined me of some other items that were banned; "Anything you wouldn't want your mother to see you with."

The PLC in my troop did ban radios and video games back in the day. Upon reflection I don't know who initiated the ban, youth or adults, but I do know that every time the issue came up to allow them, it was a resounding "NO!" The rationale given is that they cause major distractions when you have other things to do. Grant you I never expereinced that since the ban was inplace prior to me being a PL and continued until after I left. Also we were pretty busy doing things and never really noticed. No radios in cars, except the car radio of course, was also in effect. Rationale was so that patrols, yes we carpooled by patrols as much as possible, could work things out on the drive there. 99.9999% the only noise you heard on the return trip was the snores of exhausted scouts Now there was an exception to the radio ban was summercamp. The SPL, and any scouts who were on staff, could bring a radio and that was played in the evenings after the campwide games while folks were settlign down. and or prepping for classes the next day. It was also used for getting the latest news.

NJ, Are you sure about the dates? I remember in the 1980s wearing a blue necker. Now hats is a different story. The different hats, instead of 1 hat for Wolves and Bears and 1 hat for Webelos, came bout in the mid 1990s. What I don't understand is why tigers are suppose to wear the orange top socks since they are now fully integrated into Cubs now.

Rock, I know my friend who served on WB staff had to buy a green and gray Venturing uniform as he could not wear his crew's uniform.

Oak, One reason why some religious awards do not correspond to scouting levels, esp the Catholic ones, is that Scouting has changed age requirements and added programs since the particular religious awards have come out. For example, in my day CS was a 3 year program; 3rd grade was Wolves, 4th Bears, and 5th Webelos. So the Parvuli Dei Award was created as a Cub Scout geared towards those grades. When Tigers came out in 1982 for 2nd graders as a separate program, various diocese created pilot awards that eventually became the Light of Christ, and it was a Tiger Cub Award. But then Cub Scouts added Tigers formally into the program and lowered the age, hence the today's format. Also if memory serves, at one time at age 15 BSA registered you as an Explorer, even if still involved with a troop. It's my understanding that is why some religious awards can be earned by both Scouts and Venturers, i.e. Pope Pius XII for Catholics. Emb could give you a better understanding of the Older Scout awards and programs as he is the expert on that topic.

Ok I admit I am a mixed age patrol advocate so I definitely say do away with NSP. Seriously though, Bart has a great idea: talk it over with the PLC and let them deal with it. Don't ever do anything a Scout can do, and deciding how the patrols will form is a definitely something scouts can do.

Just out of curiousity, with NLTC allowing venturers to attend, can they wear their unit's jeans and Crew sweatshirt uniform, or do they need to go out na buy a complete uniform?

'O4 Check out here http://usscouts.org/awards/devices.asp http://scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/SearchPage.aspx?page=LIST&free_text|=device&answers_per_page=15 http://usscouts.org/awards/jameswest.asp#1910 http://usscouts.org/awards/Philmont.asp For whatever reason, SCOUTSTUFF doesn't list the commissioner or district committee devices. But that's not surprising as ther eare items out there that are not listed, i.e. Sea Scout lapel pin ( or as it said on the label when I got mine a few months back: Sea Explorer Lapel Pin). Now in reference to youth knots, I got a interesting question. Some districts have the OA chapter chief as a member of the district committee, and I've heard of some districts doign the same for Venturing youth leaders as well. SO if the youth serving on those committees meet the requriements, wouldn't they also be eligible for the District Committee Key?

Bac, back in the day, when what's now called a Venture Patrol was called a Leadership Corps, I saw it work. Older guys worked with the younger ones, ran the interpatrol competitions, taught skills, etc etc. In fact being a member of the LC was a POR option for advancmeent, if memory serves. Our LC comprised of former PLs who were elected by the existing members to join. First Class and being a PL for at least 12 months, usually longer, was the requirement. We did all the troop level jobs: QM, Scribe, etc. We did work a lot with the younger guys in patrols, but we camped separately, did some things on our own, and sometimes did separate activities during the same function. I remember doing the Vicksburg cross country trail with the LC while the rest of the troop did the 14 miler. When they did away with LC for Venture Crews in 1989, for a while we continued the LC b/c we did have a supply of those patches , but once we ran out, 1993 or there abouts as it was after I Eagled out as a youth, they became a Venture Crew with the Venture strip. BUT they continued to operate like the LC. Now here is where it gets interesting. When Venturing came out in 1998, and Venture Crews became Venture Patrols to try and avoid confusion with Venturing Crews ( which hasn't happened as we all know), one of our Eagles started working on the Outdoor Bronze. In conversation with the DE, he discovered that Venture Crews became Venture Patrols, and that you had to be a member of a Venturing Crew to get the new awards. So he talked it up and the Venture Patrol became a separate Venturing Crew so that those who Eagled could work on the new awards. They created their own bylaws, which included single gender and rank requirements ( Life or Eagles Only), and essentially continued operations as before. Don't know if the crew died off prior to Katrina or afterwards, but that crew isn't around anymore. And the troop suffered a membership loss after Katrina due to people moving.

Bac, If the older scouts are doing the instructing and planning with the troop, a venture patrol that does their own thing on their own on occasion or in conjunction with a troop trip, i.e. the troop does one hike while the venture patrol does a different and harder hike, then you should have no problems.

Earliest record in my neck of the woods is one troop having a photo from the their DC trip during the Harding Administration (1921-23) that's not only before my current council existed, but before the council that merged with others to form my current council existed. Don't know when they were formed, but the troop has been around for over 80 years.

RS I don't know if you are talking national promotion or local promotion, but in my neck of the wood PSR is promoted heavily by the OA and scouts and scouter who go. It's to the point that many in my council think it's the ONLY HA base around, often ignoring FL Sea Base, N Tier, and our local Pamlico Sea base (www.pamlicoseabase.org). In fact We had a DE who was a staffer at N. Tier prior to being a DE and a few folks asked him "What's N Tier" and "there's another HA base besides Philmont." Then again some of the folks that helped create the OA Trail Crew are from this council, so that may be one reason why it's promoted heavily. Heck my oldest says he want to go there in 7 years.

AJR, For the Pope Pius XII, irregardless of if earned as a Boy Scout, Venturer, or multiple registration, wears the Venturing device. But if you are a Sea Scout, you may substitute the Sea Scout device for the Venturing device. Back in the day I had the Exploring device on my knot until the head of the local Catholic Committee on Scouting told me to replace the E with the First Class Anchor as I was a registered Sea Explorer. Yes I earned the award as a scout.

I don't care if they are male or female as long as they know their skills that they are teaching and follow BSA policies. AMEN.

Emb, I stated what I did because at one time, way back in the day when Cubs was a 3 year program, and tigers didn't exist or was considered a separate program, the Cub Scout device was worn for the Parvuli Dei. That's why I and others wear a Cub device on our knot for PD as that was what the reg was at the time we earned it. Now that Cubs Scout have expanded to five years and included Tigers, and the Light of Christ is for Catholic Tigers and Wolves, a Cub device is worn for that award,and the Parvuli Dei gets a Webelos device. Also for the older scout religious award, for Catholics it's the Pope Pius XII, a Sea Scout device can also be worn inplace of the Venturing. And for old fogeys like me, an Exploring device