Eagle92

Short, How could I forget "Mr. Right and Mr. Wrong!" At least that's what we called it when we did things.

Forgot to add, even if you do have training, and prepare for just about anything, unexpected things can happen. As I mentioned I had more expereince than my buddy. We worked together, and we made it. But he didn't recognize that I had hypothermia despite the training, another scout with both training and experience did.

Stosh, Ok maybe the HA trip example I gave is not the best one I could have used. And obviously you don't take inexpereinced and/or ill prepared scouts on a HA activity. The point I was trying to make is that by having a mixed age patrol, you can have the more expereinced work with the lesser expereinced on a one-to-one basis. The older scout can help the younger one prepare better for the trip, learn the skills, etc. Also in reference to safety, my opinion, and again this is my opinion, it's better to have a few guys that have mastered the basic scoutcraft skills like first aid in a patrol campsite 300' away from the SM who can provide first aid while the younger guys get help, than a NSP 100' away from with only 1 scout having the basic skills mastered. If something were to happen to him, it would take a little time to get help. Grant you not much, but some.

In my troop growing up, PLs were responsible for making sure their patrols had the needed equipment. We were told to watch the weather, and prepare accordingly. We went over the equipment list in the book, as well as based upon the troop's expereince, and weather forcast. For longer trips or backpacking, we had PLs do a "shake and bake." "Shake"down to make sure they had only gear needed and if they needed gear, and "Bake" them if they had contraban.

Ok I posted some of this in the NSP thread, so please bear with me on some repitition. This appeared to be a NSP doing an activity. So while you did have what should have been an experienced and knowledgable SM, you did have a bunch of first timers. From the article it appears that the SM had no experienced scouts to help with the new ones. So you had scouts who didn't know about the buddy system and why it's so important. You didn't have a PL who knew that he needed to keep an eye out on his patrol. And if the scout had fallen and survived, you didn't have scouts who knew first aid and could help in rescuing and treating the scout. Could having some expereinced scout helped in this situation? I know I was fortunate in that when I did a HA activity in the Canadian wilderness, the patrol members had mixed abilities. this allowed the expereinced ones to look out and help with the less expereinced ones. Before going, we had several prep trips so that everyone had a basic level of training, and could pull their own weight if needed. And yes even though I was one of the more expereinced ones who's buddy had just the basic training to go on the trip, I was the one who got hypothermia, and another experienced scout in the patrol recognized that I got hypothermia. I pray for the family of this scout.

'Fish, Definitely get together with the OA. I know in my lodge, most packs have never heardof the OA's WHERE TO GO CAMPING book that is an invaluable resource. Also think of ideas besides posters on camping. Videos work. Costumes work. Talk up camping. Also Bart mentioned something, what can be viewed as one of the negatives of the job. FOLKS WILL COMPLAIN TO YOU ABOUT CAMP. ( caps for emphasis). One of the things that will help with this is A) Ask them to put it in writing so that you can pass it along. You may need to edit or rewrite the letter to make it more paletable to the Powers That Be (PTB), but complaint is a gift. B)Ask the person to also put in ideas to help solve the problem. This allows them to be part of the solution instead of a "whiner" to the PTB. C) Ask them if they are willing to help out in fixing the problem. ditto above. Good luck.

Now I admit I am not a fan of the NSP's as when my troop did it the first go around officially, it didn't work and we lost 1/3 of the patrol as they were not progressing as when they were mixed in with the other patrol. Then when we unoffically had a new scout patrol, a brand new troop of one patrol of freshly crossed over scouts was meeting and camping with us until they could go out on their own, the same problems occured, and didn't get fixed until we merged together and they were mixed into existing patrols. That said I do want to hear ideas on how other work it out. So please keep this going and THANK YOU! Now I do have a few questions, some based upon expereince, some observation. 1) Wouldn't it be better to have the SPL appoint both a PL and APL for the NSP? I know that when I was the PL of the NSP, yes I was the guy who lost 1/3 of his patrol in a year, I had difficulty working with all the scouts? Being boy run, there was no ASM to help, and while I did go to my SPL, and did get assistance from the older scouts, we didn't really have the buddy system used in the mixed age patrol,i.e. pairing an older scout to work with the younger ones. 2) How do you integrate older scouts working with the younger ones? Again we had older patrol members helpign out the younger ones by using the buddy system within the patrol. It allowed the younger scout one-on-one contact and learning, and provided a chance for the "older" scout to develop some teaching and leadership skills, while keeping is scoutcrqft skills up to date, if not improving. 3) How do you keep the NSP up to speed with the rest of the troop? By that I mean I have observed NSPs taking a lot longer to do activities, i.e. setting up camp, cooking, KP, etc, and for some activities the rest of the troop is waiting on them to finish. 4) Now this next part will be reposted in the LA Times on Safety side, so please bear with me. How does having a patrol of inexpereinced, or low expereinced scouts working together imrpove safety? When I did my HA trip in Canada, the troop was divided into 4 mixed age patrols. The patrols were designed so that folks could work with each other, mixing scouts of various skills and abilities so that overall the patrols as a whole were all comparable. No "gung ho" patrol that would race ahead to the next campsite and veg, and no "struggling" patrol that was last to arrive in camp, last to set up, last to eat, and last to leave in the morning. Within the patrol we were buddied up, with the most skilled working with the least skilled on down to both buddies being equal. Again I am interested in what other do and ideas on how it can work. I'll be honest, you may not convert me over to the NSP idea, but one cartoon use to say "Knowledge is power."

I must respectfully disagree. Eagle is the epitome of Scouting, and why allow something at the lower ranks, i.e. service work at the local scout camp, but not allow it for Eagle? Further why would the OA state that service work that they do at OA Ordeals, workdays, etc can NOT be counted towards advancement, but a troop doing the same exact work can count it towards advancement? While some camps do allow outside groups to use the facilities, those are revenue raising activities. Besides there are so many other organizations and group that need help, especially with this economy, why focus on the council camp? There are homeless shelters, Salvation Army facilities, COs, ad nauseum that need manpower. I'd focus on them. Part of doing service is teh feelign of accomplishment and the "good feeling" you ger for not being rewarded for what you do. Grant you requiring service can seem like it contradicts this, but getting folks in the habit at an early age does help instill this. Further doing community service also gives great PR to the unit and scouting. Folks see you ou there, see your invovlement, and know that scouting is alive and well. Why would a newspaper do an article on scouts rebuilding a shelter at the local scout camp? Now scouts helping to rebuild a community center destroyed by a hurricane or fire could make local, and even national, news.

Forgot to add that the Order of the Arrow is the main group responsible for doing service at camps. Looking at info on OA Troop Reps, it talks about the ability to network with other troops in regards to service projects. If the one of the OA rep's jobs is to network with other troops, then you can deduce that the normal OA service projects done at camp don't count towards advancement.

Why are you asking? your unit should have a separate account that needs to be used. I want to say the Cub Scout Leader handbook says something about that. under duties of a Treasurer it states Treasurer Help the pack committee and Cubmaster establish a sound financial program for the pack with a pack budget plan. Open or maintain a bank account in the packs name and arrange for all transactions to be signed by any two of the following: Cubmaster, pack committee chair, secretary, or treasurer. Approve all budget expenditures. Check all disbursements against budget allowances, and pay bills by check. The pack committee chair should approve bills before payment. Collect dues from den leaders at the pack leaders meeting, preferably in sealed den dues envelopes. Open envelopes in the presence of den leaders. Give receipts for these funds, and deposit the money in the bank account. Keep up-to-date financial records. Enter all income and expenditures under the proper budget item in the finance section of the Pack Record Book. Credit each Cub Scout with payment of dues. From time to time, compare the records with those of the den leaders to make sure they agree. Give leadership in developing a coordinated recordkeeping system in the pack. Be responsible for thrift training within the pack. Encourage each den leader to explain the pack financial plan to each boy and his family so that boys will accept responsibility for paying dues and family members will be alert to opportunities for boys to earn dues money and develop habits of thrift. On the request of den leaders, sympathetically counsel with a boy who does not pay dues, determine the reason, and encourage regular payment. If the boy is unable to pay,

If you look in the advancement guidelines book, it tell you that service projects done for scouting, whether at the local camp, local scout office, etc, do not count as a service project for advancement. From the advancement guidelines found here ... project involving council property or other BSA activities is not acceptable.... p27

Glow sticks, kids love glow sticks.

As to Catholic units, there is no reason they could not be open units, but there are some limits to that too it would seem. Actually the pack and one of the troops I was a a member of as a youth were both chartered by Catholic churches, and we had Protestant and Jewish members and leaders (ok no Jewish leader, just a member). Only thing that the churches required was the COR to be a member of that church. In fact the SM lived out of town, so even he wasn't a member of the church's parish. Only conflict the troop ever had was getting home early from a trip to find that our storage shed was blocked by cars going to mass. (This message has been edited by eagle92)

How about the new Den and Pack meeting book?

Peri, According to the advancement guidelines, a SMC is NOT pass/fail. So a SM cannot refuse to sign off on a SMC even if he deems the scout not ready for advancement, and a scout can request a BOR over the objections of the SM. Further if the SM refuses to signoff on the SMC, there is apparently a way to go forward with the BOR. There was a very long discussion on this about a year back in the advancement thread.

My den actually made their own vests over 2 den meetings for the American Indian Wolf Elective. rReal easy to make.

Peri, A scout does have the right to ignore the SM's advice and go ahead with a BOR.

Not to change the subject, but why does the Denali Award exist? In looking at the requirements, the only difference I see between what older scouts do in a troop, and varsity scouts do in a team is earning the Varsity letter. BTW did anyone find any official notice on when Venture patrols stopped being able to earn the letter? I know they opened they opened the Venture HA pins to Varsity Teams and Varsity pins to Venutre Crews, now called Venture Patrols in 1995 or 1996, but don't know when Venture patrols stopped being able to earn them. I know it wasn't popular and most troops didn't even know about it, but i did sell one or two.

Actually the Light of Christ and Parvuli Dei Awards do not require a counselor, instead they work with their parents on the awards. Oldest and a few of his friend in his Catechism class, aka Sunday School, are doign that with their parents. Unfortunately God and Me don't work for Catholics as there are different trequirements.

ScouterAdam, 1) WELCOME TO THE FORUMS! 2) I must respectfully disagree with the a uniform could be jeans the the tan shirt with rank. It's what's the uniform within the troop. You could get nit-picky about shoes, socks, pants, belt and anything else. comment. BSA has already decided what the uniform is comprised of, and does not allow packs or troops to decide what a uniform is comprised of. Socks, pants/shorts, belt, etc are the Scout uniform. Now do we have kids out there that cannot afford a new, stress NEW, uniform? Absolutely, and I was one of those kids. Heck I never owned a new uniform until I worked for Supply and was issued one, always got used uniforms. There are ways to get uniforms if the scouts want them. Thrift stores, unit uniform closets, ebay, craigslist, garage sales, older scouts. I can undestand folks going for T-2-1 ranks not having a complete uniform yet, as they may be trying to buy their own uniform piecemeal. But by the time someone is going for Eagle, at a minimum, they have been in the program at least 17 months, but usually it is longer. They should have had time to get a complete uniform. EDITED: Don't know if the new BSHB say a scout should buy his own uniform like older ones did, but that would be another reason why I am OK with a new scout on the T-2-1 ranks and an incomplete uniform.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

East Carolina Council is promoting it.

What I really find interesting about the leaks is that most, like 75%, of what is being covered in the news currently, has been hinted at and or published and ignored previously. Grant you some of the details are interesting, i.e. Saudi calling Iran a snake, but the animosity between Arabs and Iranians, aka Persians, is very historic. Hezbollah using Red Crescent ambulances to transport armed folks unmolested has been reported. etc etc.

Sailing, Trust me he will respond. It may be a short note saying that he will tell the appropriate folks, or in my case telling me his assistant will be sending me a copy of the new training., but he will respond. I had the pleasure of knowing Keith when he was a DSS in New Orleans. He helped do a lot for that council's programs and facilities.

'Fish, Hopefully your RT is better attended than ours. Only 2 packs attended the one this pack week. As someone mentioned I promote CS camping in my district; day camp, family campouts, res camp, etc. and I do need to do somethings outside the box so to speak. Especially since 50% meet on the same nite as mine, 49% meet on the nite I need to watch all the kids for family reasons, and one pack just doesn't do anything with the district at all. Last year we had a booth set up during district PWD promoting day camp and resident camp. I made a video that promotes CSDC and resident camp that I sent copies to packs to watch during BnG. I also showed that video at a council Cub family campout. And at another campout, I had some campfire run-ons promoting the different activities. The more people you can get involved the better. Find out who your CSDC staffers have been in the past, and who they will be and GET THEM INVOLVED! I know that when I do camp promos, both CS and BS, I ask who has attened in the past, and who had fun. then go through a list of activities and see who likes it. Again get the audience into it.

Vol, While wikipedia can give you a quickl reference, you do need to take things with a grain of salt as I learned the hard way. Anyone who is registered can alter content, wheather it's valid or not. Good example, I tried to edit the Korean War entry based upon info that was released within the past 3-5 years of me attempting to make the edit. had source citations, the whole 9 yards. Well a few days later, my info was removed, my citations expunged, etc. As for the death penalty for espionage and treason, the last time it happened to my knowledge was the Rosenburgs in the 1950s. Despite a trial that convicted with valid evidence and testimony, there is still an aura of repulsiveness for executing. Even to this day, there are folks who beleive that they were innocent and set up buy the US government, despite that we know from declassified VENONA transcripts and former Soviet archives, that they were guilty.