Eagle92

BP, The old comment was meant as a joke, my apologies if offended. All, Apparently not everyone does follow the Guide to Officers and Advisers. I did a quick search on OA lodge chief and council camping committee and found this when talking about the same thing we are right now on http://central.oa-bsa.org/burningissues/ The only person on your LEC that could wear silver tabs is probably your Lodge Chief only if he was allowed a spot on the Council's Camping Committee- even then he should ware a position patch identifying his involvement with the Council. BUT Western region OA's website in their sample LODGE ASSISTANCE PROGRAM VISITATION REPORT states that the LC should be on the Council Camping committee. One lodge website had in their by-laws that the LC i. Is a member of the Council Camping Committee. http://www.shenshawpotoo.org/documents/conandby.pdf But another only mentions the Lodge lay adviser being a member of the council camping committee http://www.shawneelodge.org/downloads/by-laws.pdf So as usual ALL SCOUTING IS LOCAL. But my question still remains unanswered: Why would you NOT want a youth on the committee? They are the users; the program is suppose to be for them; they know probably better than some folks who are on the council committee what is needed, what will work, etc.

Very good friend of mine only had 2 scouts help out with his project, his brother and a member of his church's youth group. Everyone else involved was a member of the youth group, both youth and adults. He saw a need in his church, he came up with his project, and got the church youth group involved. part of it was that he wanted them to have some ownership in what they were doing: renovating their gym. Thought that if folks did the work, they would take care of it better. There are no policies stating that you can only use youth or can only use scouts. One of the things I learned at Brownsea 22 was to 'Use your resources." So if you are doing a construction project, and you have an engineer as an ASM, by all means use him. The key is that the Life Scout must be in charge, and must LEAD. he has to plan it, he has to execute it. Telling your engineer what you want designed and done, and getting his opinion is "using a resource," and OK in my book. Just going up to him as saying how dowe do this, with out any prior thought would be a different story.

Yes more details are needed. I will say this, I had a young man who had some "challenges" with the district advancement chair b/c he only led 3 people in his project, one of whom was his dad. He had to go to great lengths to show that he did try to get more people involved, due to space considerations he had to limit the number of folks in the wood shop his dad had in the back yard, because of age deadline he had to get the project completed ASAP so he used those scouts available, and his dad taught the scouts how to use the wood tools, and supervised them until he felt confident they could do it on their own.

a few comments. 1) The PLC should be running things to begin with, with adults advising and supporting, so if the PLC wants to create by-laws, what's the problem? 2) While i have no problem with youth running the show, and they should be, they MUST follow the proper rules and procedures like everyone else, so the hypothetical question of voting on an Eagle candidate is not allowed, and as an adult our job would be to show them the rules, and explain to them that it cannot be done.

EMB, Again thanks for the info. Any other info you're willing to share. I lucked out when I went to '95WSJ as I was able to go with the Brits at a very good price due to a slot opening up very last minute. Long story short, my camp warden handled 95% percent of the stuff for me, all I had to do was fill out an app, send in some money, and meet the group on the ferry.

Ditto what EMB said. Although I think they tried to use the blue jac shirts for Explorers first, then tried to pass it along to Cub Scouters. No dice, everyone wanted the red one. Everyone I know of would also like to have a black bull on it too, except one lady who is trying to find a white one for her jac shirt, but with the announcement today, I think Philmont will have to wait a little longer. So if you want a red jac-shirt, by all means get them while you can. I've been told that once the inventory is gone, they will be like original theater versions of Star Wars "gone forever."

Calico, Most of the CAs I know have held double duty, being ASMs, that was me for a brief time, or SMs, although only 2 have I met. LAs I've known have usually been just that, although I have met a few that were also ASMs, and 1 that was an SM. Don't know how he did it. And Short did hit it on the head. Most LC I know unfortunately don't get to spend as much time with their troop as they would like. Esp. the college age ones. In fact I knew of 1 college age LC that hadn't seen a member of his troop until he went to an Ordeal weekend and saw several of them. LCs have a heck of a lot of responsibilities and duties, more than most folks their age IMHO. But again my question to everyone is: Why would you NOT want a youth's voice on a council committee or district committee?

Back Pg 17 Under THE KEY 3 TEAM FOR LODGE ADMINISTRATION it states under Lodge Chief 1. Elected from the youth membership of the lodge. Responsible to the Scout executive through the lodge adviser and staff adviser for performance of duties. Becomes a member of the council camping or Boy Scout committee. emphasis mine Also states 2. Responsible for adherence to the program and policies of the lodge. Attends appropriate council, section, regional, and national OA functions. So since he IS a member of the Council Camping or Boy Scout Committee, he needs to attend them. Also if you look on the chart on p35, it looks as if the LC and LA are part of the Camping Committee or BS Committee. I hate to say it, but it looks as if some councils are not running the OA lodge like they are suppose to and have the LC on the committee. BP, NEI-1, man I thought I was old Things do change over time. Heck I know that have changed a lot since I attended. Calico, Why I agree with you, the question I have is this: why are there OA Lodge Adviser, Lodge AA, Chap. Adv. and Chap. AA POR patches, but none for youth when the OA is suppose to be a youth run organization? We all know that if those folks do their job right, it can be a heck of a lot harder than being a PL and SPL, at least in my expereince. The other question is, if there are council and district level youth patches for Venturing, why not for the OA? Not trying to argue with ya, and I hope my tone express that, but I think this could be a good discussion. One more question, and this is for everyone: Why would you NOT want a youth voice on the Council Camping or Boy Scout Committee and the District Committee? The program is suppose to be for them, they probably have a better understanding than we give them credit for.

'Dad, Webelos was 1 year, 5th grade up until approx 1989. Tigers was a separate program until that time and was in 2nd grade. The Cub Scouts lasted from 3-5 grades.

BP, The national literature, which I quoted in my first response, says the LC is a member of the council camping or Boy Scout committee, and the CC is a member of the district committee. Nothing in the literature says they are honorary members. Pg. 8 of the Guide for Officer and Adviser on pg. 8 states The lodge adviser and lodge chief (emphasis mine) serve as members of the council camping or Boy Scout committee, while the chapter adviser and chapter chief (emphasis mine)serve on the district camping or Boy Scout committee. Pg 11 states The lodge must work closely with district and council Boy Scout or camping committees in carrying out the council camping promotion plans. The lodge adviser and lodge chief are members of the council camping or Boy Scout committee, and chapter advisers and their chiefs become members of their respective district committees. (emphasis mine) The camping committee is responsible for camping promotion. It is not the role of the Order of the Arrow to assume total responsibility for camping promotion, but rather to give full support to the entire council and district camping program. This includes monthly unit camping as well as resident camp. pg 13 talks about the Where to Go Camping book and how it is discussed at the Camping committee meeting. More later(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Emb, Didn't Singapore and Italy put in bids? True the slots are more limited, and the costs are set by WOSM, but a good bit of the cost for a WSJ is the airfare.

I just found out that Bechtel WILL be hosting the 2019 WSJ in conjunction with Scouts of Mexico and Scouts Canada. http://newsblaze.com/story/2011011309300100001.pnw/topstory.html Oldest is happy b/c he will be able to go IF he can save up the money. Middle is not happy b/c he will be 2 months shy of the deadline. I think I may not be going to Philmont for a little while now But I may be going to Bechtel

BP, In the lodge I grew up in, LC voted. Current lodge ditto. Only thing 'special" is that my current lodge pays for the meal as our meetings are usually working dinners. As for the DC, lots of times the CCs I've worked with usually have jobs and cannot make the meeting, or that's their game nite. I know of only 1 CC who attended a meeting, and after the bickering and politics, he and his dad both, dad at time was ACA, now CA, swore never again. Luckily committee has stopped the worst of it.

Emb, According to Scoutstuff.org the district and council committee patches are restricted. that's where I got that info form. As for why they don't have LC and CC patches, I was told by my boss in supply that the youth's primary role is with his unit, and that there is no need for those patches. When supply put them out, one of the committees had a hissy fit and told us to destroy the ones in inventory. My boss personally handled that, but we only had one or two left in inventory. Those patches came out 1995 or 1996, as that was my first gig with supply as a PT. I know my friend the LC bought 3 of those patches. Short, Yes, we have Summer camp CSP. It is the regualar CSP with "Camp Boddie Staff" written in gold letters on it. If memory serves they only give you one per summer camp, and I don't think you can buy them either. Trust me they didn't have them when I was on camp staff back in the day, AND I WANT ONE WITH THE OLD CAMP NAME! Don't see many folks wear them, but a few do, usually the rangers. Also there is a POR patch. I think I've seen 2 designs (Stag's head on one, the other is the FDL), and two different wordings depending upon position. Again this is if my memory serves as most folks don't wear them and you only get 1 per summer camp. As for why the silver loops, b/c they are employees, even if seasonal. Beats what they use to do when I worked staff, pick a ribbon and make their own. Each year had their own colors. Don't ask.

Not a troop committee, but an OA exec board. When I was an officer, we always, stress ALWAYS, had one member who would vote "No" when it would be a unanimous decision, even if he was the one who proposed the motion or seconded, b/c he believed that there shold never be a unanimous vote, there should always be discussion and a vote of dissent to prove that there was discussion. at least that was his rationale.

BP, The Officers Guide states that both the Lodge Adviser and Lodge chief are part of the committee, not honorary members, and the Chapter adviser and Chapter cheif are part of the district committee,not honorary members. being part of a committee entails full voting rights, and access to the appropriate insignia if they chose to wear it. I know in the two of the 4 lodges I wasactive in, the LC was a member of council committee, and did vote. Now the uniform and/or insignia they wear varies from LC to LC. One lodge I know of had the LC wearing the old LC Patch until they ran out of them, then I think they started using repros. In the other, the LC sometimes wears what they want to wear. Sometimes it's a unit uniform, sometimes it's a uniform with the exec committee patch, and sometimes its the "summer camp uniform" consisting of Venturing field uniform, Council camp staff CSP, Camp Staff or Camp Area Director POR, and.... silver loops.

NARA.gov has some good WWII photos. Also checkout state archives. Doing a project last year, I foudn some cool photos from 1907 all the way to today in a variety of online sources. Found pics of Lindbergh, Pres. Ford, and other photos.

#1 WELCOME TO THE FORUMS!!!! #2 I have been told that once the current stock of red wool jackets are gone, then Bemidji Mills and Ebay will be your only sources. From what I've seen, I like the Bemidgi Mills one as it has pockets. But the price is a little steep for me.

RAIN, I know many folks wear regional insignia who are not suppose to. Heck I admit two of my shirts have it on b/c when I took them off, you could tell a region patch was there I wore them so much when I was a DE. per the IG This insignia [regional insignia] is reserved for regional officers, regional committee members, local council professional Scouters, and national staff with a regional responsibility and is worn on the right sleeve in position 2. Adult regional world and national jamboree contingent staff and leaders may wear the insignia only during their assignment at the jamboree. The same rule applies to specifically designed regional insignia for a national event. Do talk to your adviser. Depending upon Whether you're a LC or a CC, plus how involved you are on the committee, he may recommend not wearing it. Me personally if you are going to be active, then I recommend it, as wearing your regular shirt A) may be seen as a sign of favoritism, and B)let others know you important role on the commitee, representing the youth of the district or council. Let's face it, there are only two youth voices, possibly three, Council Boatswain, among the adults running a youth program. Your voice and your role is VERY IMPORTANT as us old fogeys can sometimes forget why we are here. Two asides. #1 I only know of 1 CC who went to a district meeting, and after all the politics and infighting said never again. #2 I find it interesting that there are official District Venturing President and Council Venturing President patches, but no OA Lodge Chief and Chapter Chief patches. http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=UNIFORMS&c3=INSIGNIA&c4=&lv=3&item=18016 and http://www.sageventure.com/venturing/files/CouncilVenturingPres.pdf(This message has been edited by Eagle92)(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

ROTFLMAO!!!!!! that was hilarious, I gonna use it.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tigers and Webelos Are NOT separate programs they are CUB SCOUTS BELONGING TO A PACK! Ok I've calmed down now. Seriously though, while Tigers were once a completely separate program from Cubs, they have been fully incorporated into cub scouting, requiring the Bobcat Badge prior to earnign the Tiger badge. They no longer have their own Law, Promise, and Motto. THEY ARE CUB SCOUTS PERIOD (now thats for emphasis ) I state the above because I have seen some Older Cubs and scouters say the exact thing, and tick Tigers and/or their parents off enough so that they leave scouting altogether. Not what we want not is it. Yes Tigers are different from the rest of pack. BUT they are part of the pack, and hence Cub Scouts. And yes Webelos also do additional things, let's face it they are suppose to be getting ready for Boy Scouts, and yes they have the option of wearing the Boy Socut uniform with Cub Scout modifications, they belong to a Pack , and are Cub Scouts. They still have a den leader, they still help the Pack go, etc.

1) WELCOME TO THE FORUMS! 2) For Lodge and Chapter Chief's, yes they can wear Silver loops, but no on the regional patch. According to the Guide to Officers and Advisers The lodge adviser and lodge chief are members of the council camping or Boy Scout committee, and chapter advisers and their chiefs become members of their respective district committees. So if your Lodge Chief can find one of the old Lodge Chief POR Patches that came out in 1993 or 1994, he can wear that without the unit numbers and silver loops. I also know of LCs wearing repros of them too (the patch came out of Supply without approval, so they had to destroy whatever inventory they had left. Lost of folks were buying them up when the word came out). If you can't find an old LC patch, the a Council Committee patch is available. Be advised they are restricted, and I will tell you that staff will look at you funny and question a youth getting that patch. But yes it is authorized National never made a Chapter Chief Patch (although a Chapter Adviser one exists ?!?!?!?!) so he would need to wear a District Committee Patch. Ditto the strange looks and questioning. Also be ready for some adults to look at him funny and question not only why he's there, but why he has a vote on the committee. Regional patches are restricted to employees, regional level Scouts, Venturers, and Scouters. Sea Scouts don't wear regional insignia. Only time you see Scouters wearing regional patches not in a regional POR is at Jambo.

Hawk, AND????? You do know that once a patch is official, you can always wear it, so you don't have to keep changing lodge flaps. I know I still have my 13 year old lodge flap on one of my uniforms.

Here are my thoughts. 1) "Outing is three-fourths of ScOuting," so we need to make Outing six-elevenths of Cub ScOuting. Cub Scout Outdoor Award and JtE is a good start. 2)As others have mentioned, more hands on action and less paperwork. My Wolves had a blast sewing their vests, or working on the cubmobile, but were not having fun with workign on the community safety. Mixed in some codes and that helped. 3) While a cub can earn the Sports and Academics loops and pins repeatedly, don't make a Webelos redo them as they are still a Cub Scout. Also include that info in the Webelos HB. 4) While we are using a spiral approach to teach things, i.e. repeating things every year, language needs to be in place to specify that more is expected at the next level. I.e. 5) This is more literature and supply but here it goes; Make sure the uniforms and literature have Tigers fully integrated, i.e. if they can earn the Horsemanship Belt Loop and Pin, then they should be able to ride a horse at camp like the rest of the cubs, no orange and blue socks, etc.

F' While you are 100% correct in that the SM needs to keep the scout informed per national's directive, the problem that many volunteers have is that all of the responsibility is on the volunteer leaders, not the scout himself. I was always taught, "it's your ___________, your responsibility." So if the scout wants to be involved in scouting, it should be his responsibility to maintain contact. Whenever we had scouts who would not be attending troop events for extended periods, they always called their PL to keep updated.