Eagle92

You can never go wrong in your Scout uniform. When I was visiting packs, I wore my uniform since I was the OA chapter adviser.

Beav, A lot of training courses are like that, just look at WB21C. I know that with the AHA the courses i've dealt with, Basic Life Support (CPR for pros) and the Heartsaver series of courses (for non medicla folks) all have a video that is played that provides instruction. The instructors are there to answer questions, test skills, and administer the test. In fact you can take 90% of the AHA course online, only going to an approved instructor for the skills check off and possibly the written test (haven't done that yet as the hospital won't pay folks to take it on their own as we provide classes every 2 weeks)

Beav, Yeah that' s my concern, the ease of getting certified as an instructor with them. For me it's the cheapest route, and I still can't afford it. I have folks who are instructors for various programs, mostly fire and rescue but one ARC, that I would love to organzie into a training cadre to get the course going as cheaply as possible, but I want to know how valid they are.

Hijacking the thread a little. Anyone have any experince with ECSI and their WFA program?

SPL, the reason why a judge and a jury, if the accused wants a jury, are needed in order to say someone is guilty or not is b/c of our legal system. In revolunionary times, people could eb arrested and jailed without such benefits. One of the reasons for our Revolution in 1775.

here's the link to the expedition requirements You must plan, prepare for, practice and do your Expedition. Simply you need to form a team and go on an unaccompanied journey with help from your Supervisor and your Leader. emphasis mine. http://www.dofe.org/en/content/cms/Doing_your_DofE/Your_DofE_programme/Sections/Expedition/requirements/requirements.aspx

Need to do more research on founders, please give me time. In refrecne to other countries, ask anyone who has gone to a WSJ, participated in an international activity, did European Camp Staff Program, or talked to a participant of the BSA's International Camp Staff program at a camp using it. BIG differences. Also look at some the non Scouting and Scouting Affiliated programs in otehr countries. Duke of Edinburgh's Award http://www.dofe.org/ For the Gold Award they do a trip on their own without adults.

jared, 1) WELCOME TO THE FORUMS!!!!!!! 2) the reference to venuture crew/patrol and Venturing Crew to the Expedition hats referes to the fact that before 1998 when Ventruing split from Exploring, venture patrols in a a troop were called venture crews. Some folks, mostly old fogeys like myself who slip up every now and then, still refer to venture patrols as venture crews, and some folk call Venturing Crews Venture Crew When I first heard about it. Just as i refered to the brimmed hat by its original name. Stosh, I wish national would go back to allowing the RANK pin of the Scout to be worn on the smokey bear. When I worked for supply and the "new" hat pin policy came out, ie. First Class pin for all youth, pewter for adults, it wa a major pain to have to tell folks that the First Class pin is considered a rank and that we cannot sell it to them without an advancement report per national policy.

Beav, To be honest I have not taken any adavcned classes, nor have I taken WFA. So what I am about to say is based upon my reasearch in my attempt to get WFA instuctor training as I am an AHA instructor and was trying to get duel certified. 1) the orignial ARC WFA course was developed by the Transylvania Chapter of ARC. They were the ones that created the program, and they used a Moutaineering FA book as their text. That changed in 2010 when national ARC developed WFA, and I do not know anything else. Can't afford the cost ($150-185) or the time away from the family. 2) BSA came out with a Wilderness First Aid Manual in 2010 and it was written by a Buck Tilton and others reviewed it. The brief bio of him here looks impressive http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=BOOKS_LIT&c3=BFIRSTAID&c4=&lv=3&item=610009 More on him can be found here http://wiki.wyomingauthors.org/w/page/12626739/Buck-Tilton Since he was a cofounder of WMI, and has a number of books on the topic, I think he's a valid source for the BSA book he wrote,as well as any input into the WFA requirements the BSA wants in place. 3) Again I do not know what the 2010 version of ARC goes over, nor who wrote the course material. 4) I know the BSA goes into some detail at this site http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/home/healthandsafety/training/wilderness_fa.aspx 5) BSA apparently also has a deal with ECSI as they teach courses at Philmont, and have a way to get WFA instruction relatively cheap, still can't afford it at though as I have looked. http://boyscouts.ecsinstitute.org/ What I want to know about ECSI is this: how good a program are they?

I think councils need to offer FA and CPRw/AED at summer camp. I know that when I went through BSA Lifeguard, if I didn't already have it, I would have had to taken it over 2 nites at camp. Bea advised that there is a FA survey over on Scouting.org's safety subpage. They are trying to get people's opinions on FA and WFA for both youth and adults.

part of the problem is that folks today don't get the chance to screw up and take responsibly b/c mommy and daddy are there to get them out of a bind. If you are doing poorly in school, the parents blame the teachers. and I can go on.

Pin? PIN! We don't need no stinking pin on our smokey bear, we got our plume. Oh wait wrong hat...NEVERMIND.

Would the wife getting kicked out the SCA's Ref Fest Count? Long story short, wife had an AWESOME begger costume. Let's just say it took about 3-4 hours of me helping her mix and put on the makeup. ANYWAY some bigwig with SCA at the fair was ticked off at her being in costume and in persona. Said she needed to be registered in order to wear a costume. Tell that to the hordes inall kinds of faerie et al costumes. I think she was just ticked b/c wifey's costume was awesome. Sis in law wore it to a different ren fair and had no problems.

A very good point has been made the metrics are subjective. Part of that is b/c dealing with humans is not the same as creating and testing a product: putting it through various tests, measuring PSI, temp, etc. With engineering for the most part, you build a product and put it through a bunch of tests, until you get the same results every time in the exact situation. Problem is with humans identical situations will never occur. A situation with similarities will occur, but the expereince factor alone, i.e. having dealt with this type of situation or similar situation before, makes it different. Best example I can give is the Eagle Scout astronaut on a shuttle mission who had to deal with a broken robotic arm. He stated that he could lash the arm together and complete the experiment. He used the expereince of making a trestle in pioneering to solve the problem if memory serves. It took engineers at NASA a bit of time to create the simulation, test that solution and various others, to confirm that lashing the arm would be the best method of fixing the problem. Now the real test of the Patrol Method would be the PL taking his patrol out on their own with the SM's permission. if teh SM wasn't comfortable, he could nix it. The problem that BSA faces in regards to the PM stems from several factors. #1 you do have parents who no matter what you say or show, do not believe the Patrol Method works and that adults MUST be in charge. best example I can give is one parent, whom I believe is now a leader ( I sure hope not though) who after I explained how the Patrol Method should work, and gave examples of it working, told me that from his perspective as a PhD in education, the patrol method` cannot work because youth need to be told what to do and need adults guiding them. he used some of the same arguments you used to defend his position. No use trying to convince him otherwise, so I moseyed along. I will say this though: a patrol in his troop didn't know how to build and start a fire with wood and matches. The adult judges got so frustrated that these scouts couldn't do a basic scout skill, that they broke down, showed them hot to make fizz sticks and prep the wood for a fire with the parent watching. The next patrol that had no adults watching them was able to get things going. #2 the patrol method is not equally applied in every unit. Some of it is through lack of training on the topic, improper training on the topic, are the refusal to truly adopt the method as it should be. you have some folks who beleive all the patrol method is is dividing the scouts by age into small groups and having the ASMs tell them what to do. Then you have some leaders who think like the parent above, and won't let the boys work. Now in reference to metrics, the old measurement success of the patrol method is not in much use as it once was for variety of reasons, and it sounds as if it will no longer be allowed by the BSA after march 2011: a patrol camping on their own with the SM's permission. Some of that is fear of failure ( my opinion is that if you don't think your scouts can handle it, YOU DO NOT LET THEM GO), and I am willing to bet that in some jurisdictions allowing minors to camp on their own without supervision would be illegal. If some jurisdictions considers tapping a Scout on the shoulder by another scout "child abuse," I can imagine what leaving the Scouts alonw would be considered.

Base, Read teh "winner from ebay:" comment and I will tell you something. FOR SOME FOLKS IT DOES NOT MATTER AS YOU ARE MAKING A DIFFERENCE (not shouting, ephassizing though) When I first became a DE, actually I wasn't a DE yet as I "offically" became a DE on Monday after the district's PWD race there was a kid with no parent and his grandmother had no clue. She thought they built them at the event and then raced them. Long story short they left the PWD, made a very quick WEDGE car, painted it, and came back. Unfortunately they came too late to race in his division. I asked if it would be OK if I raced it for him, he said ok, the judges smiled and said OK, and he stayed for the leaders' division. I asked if he would mind setting it up on the track for me, etc etc. No one had any problems with it. He got to race his car against all the leaders. Did it win, no way in Hades did it win. Did he have fun. ABSOLUTELY. You could tell i his face and the excitement he had 'cause he could still race. In addition to a car that he made with his grandfather, he got to race it and got a little Hot Wheels car. But I be the remembers the great time he had racing his car against the leaders. YOU MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

Because one of your scouts may earn his Eagle and WAIT a year for his ECOH so that you will be able to attend so that he can say "Thank you" Because one of your scouts who you haven't seen in years may contact you on Facebook to tell you you made a difference and catch up with you. Because one of your scouts may tell you thank you for the packages you've been sending to him and everything else you have done for him and that he wants to drive over to your house and visit when he comes home. Because one of your scouts may not have a father figure in his life, and despite knowing some of the challenges you have been facing, begs you to attend his ECOH because you have made a difference in his life and were the father figure he never had. Because maybe that Eagle of yours still thinks about what you would do when he encounters a challenging situation dealing with scouts. Or maybe a little lower goals. Maybe it's walking around your campsite and watching the kids have fun. Maybe it's seeing the faces of the kids and parents that launch their first rocket at a pack rocket derby. Maybe it's seeing the fun and excitement on the faces of the kids at your day camp as you sing some crazy Star Wars parody songs. Can it be rough at times. heck yeah. Can it be overwhelming, heck yeah. Do we have folks who don't appreciate it. Absolutely. Shoot I just got slammed with an unexpected paperwork nightmare in trying to put on a district event for about 25-30 Cubs. But is it worth it.... ABSOLUTELY! (This message has been edited by Eagle92)

AJ, Originally that hat was called the Expedition by supply. Old names die hard, kinda like calling a venture patrol a venutre crew, or calling a Venturing Crew a venture crew. Yes they can be worn with any BSA uniform save teh CS blue uniform, Webelos wearing the Boy Scout uniform, and Sea Scouts. Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, Venturers and their leaders are OK. While there has been some debate about CS leaders wearing them, one place says they wear whatever level hat their den is, You've seen CS folks with them on in national literature.

Forgot to add, in addition to the Gondorian armour for his 1st B-day, also had a "Roharim war chariot" for a stroller, unfortunately the war chariot didn't make it into the LOTR movies.

Engineer, May I remind you that women also didn't get the right to vote nationally until the 6-14-1919, after WWI. Also Slavery still existed in the US until 12-6-1865, after the Civil War. Freed slaves only received citizenship on 7-9-1868, almost 3 years after the 13th Amendment and almost 8 years after the Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves in the states that succeeded form the Union. They didn't get the right to vote until 2-3-1870,, almost 2 years after slavery was abolished in the US. So do you still think the Founders were correct in everything they did? Also a few FYIs about some of our founders Ben Franklin at 20 was gainfully employed at 21 created the Junto, which was first tradesman organization in the US. at 22 had his own printing business at 25 created the first subscription library in the US George Washington at 17 was a colonial government surveyor at 21 was a Major in the Virginia militia. at 23 led British forces in retreat from the Braddock Disaster. ALSO at 23 became a Virginia militia Colonel AND was placed as commander in chief of Virginia's frontier forces. More later

Calico, (in my 10th Doctor impersonation) WWEEEELLLLLL now that you mention it." DO..... NOT... GET...ME...STARTED ...ON ...DOCTOR.... WHO!!!!! Ok you asked for it. If you turn your bedroom into the 4th Doctor's (aka Curls and Teeth) T.A.R.D.I.S., you might be a Doctor Who fanatic. (yes I got pics of my wife and her sister in their T.A.R.D.I.S. bedroom) If you have every single available Doctor Who episode, you might be a Doctor Who fanatic. If you have the partial episodes, the ones that are the original sound track but have artwork instead as the video no longer exists, you might be a Doctor Who fanatic. (in-laws) If you create 2 Doctor Who Costumes every year for DRAGONCON, you might be a Doctor Who fanatic. If you redo your BLINK Angel costume from scratch b/c 'it just doesn't look right" you might be a Doctor Who fanatic. ( sis in law) If you google DRAGONCON and Doctor Who Photos, you will see with some of what I have to live with in ref to my in-laws. My kids are doomed to be Sci fi and fantasy geeks Then again when you get Gondorian Armour for your 1st birthday, that is a sure sign that you are doomed.

A few comments. Does boy lead create future adult lead units? Do adult led units die after those adults move on , since the boys have no clue. If by this question you mean that once a youth leader becomes ASM, does he still do what he's done when he was ASPL, SPL, Etc? In my expereince it is possible. I know that when I was first an ASM and was the "acting SM" at summer camp as the over 21yo was a parent, I was bad and did way too much. Luckily the SM did come in the middle of the week, talked to folks and had a cup of coffee with me. Great learning expereince and set me on the right track. Biggest thing was I was friends with some of the older scouts, and considered a mentor by all. Me sliding back into SPL mode instead of being in ASM mode did raise some questions, but the youth thought I knew best and really did not argue with me. Why i love having an expereinced ASM or SM mentor new ASMs from the ranks. Now in refernce to Adult lead troop dying off when the main adult leaves, it depends. I know of one troop that had an intense SM, very adult lead. In fact some folks looked at that troop as a model b/c they won all the camp awards at summer camp and camporees. However their SM told them what to do at summer camp, and coached them heavily at their troop meetings and campouts in preparationfor district and council camporees when held. I admit there was some resentment in my troop about this, but when that adult left, the troop fell apart because it was adult lead, and it was essentially a one man show. In contrast my troop was youth led. When my SM left after 25 years, the new SM who mentored under the old SM for a year, basically made no impact as the youth kept doing what they always did. Now some of our emphasis changed a bit, we did a lot more canoeing and water activities as that was the New SM's interest, he was a Quartermaster after all, but essentially is was business as usual. Now I do know of one very large troop that was adult led, and had no problems when a new SM appeared. But they also had a very large base of ASMs to take over.

Do you mean the Expedition hat, aka "Indiana Jones' hat" or the Smokey Bear? Yes to both. As for knee socks, ebay is your only bet.

nah, but I do have it bookmarked. Where was I If you have discussions comparing the abilities of various fighters in Star Wars, you might be a Star Wars geek. If you convince other members of the Scouter.com forum to participate in a Star Wars Skit at a council CS event, you might be a Star Wars geek. (sorry SctDad) If you convince cubs that there will be a lighhtsaber duel after the campfire show at the cub scout event above, you might be a Star Wars geek. If you tried to use Huttese as your foreign language in college, you might be a Star Wars geek. If you wanted to learn Huttese b/c your friend told you about his attempt to use it as a foreign language requirement, you might be a Star Wars geek. If you had a "Star Wars Idol" at your day camp's campfire show, you might be a Star Wars geek. If you are glad that your son wanted an X-Wing fighter cake for his birthday, you might be a corrupting Star Wars geek. If your wife made the X-Wing cake for his birthday, you might have married a Star Wars geek. If you didn't know whether to keep the cake 'cause it was really cool, or let your son eat it, you might be a Star Wars geek. (reluctantly I let him eat it, at least it was chocolate cake ) If you live the town that is the HQ for the David Prowse Fan Club, aka DARTH VADER, you might be a Star Wars geek. ( approx 3 miles from my house.) Finally If you think Star Trek is the greatest Sci Fi franchise in history, well you just got "delusions of grandeur"

One time, I would say our job as leaders isn't so much as to teach leadership, but be there as a guide and mentor as needed. The Scouts can teach leaderhsip on their own. I know my PLs and SPLs taught me alot about leadership not only through the training they conducted, they did the TLT and not the SM, but also by their example. Also I had youth and young scouters teaching leadership to me at Brownsea 22,and not adults.

No...they don't...remember the human mind does not properly calculate long-term consequences until about age 22-24. The boys can decide if the WANT to do something, not if it is REASONABLE for them to do it. HORSEHOCKEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The reason why today's youth don't act like youth did 25-50 years ago and properkly calculate long term consequences is that most parents coddle their children, do not give them responsibility, and do not let them grow up on their own. THEY HAVE NO EXPERIENCE MAKING DECISIONS AND HAVING TO LIVE WITH THE RESULTS BECAUSE MOMMY AND DADDY WILL FIX THE PROBLEM FOR THEM! (caps for emphasis not shouting) It's kinda sad when you have parents doing all the work for their kids so that they can pass school Kinda sad when parents do all the work for their kids to set up an internship or some type of job exposure program they need for school. Kinda sad to have a college student's parent call you to complain about their kid's grade in your class (didn't happen to me, but a coworker) Kinda sad when an HR department is getting phone calls from a prospective employee's parents, or even an employee's parents ( there are documented cases of that in the literature. If folks are not fully mature until the brain is 'fully developed at age 25" as the literature states, and there are disagreements on that study in the neuroscience community I might add ( i said HORSEHOCKEY when I first read that study 2 years ago, continue to say it still, and some experts also say it) then why does the military use 18 - 25 year olds as combat leaders in such roles as fire team leaders, squad leaders, and platoon commanders? Why does the legal system treat someone as an adult at age 18 if they are not really an adult until age 25? Why do we allow 18 year olds, if they are really children with an still developing brain? Youth will live up to your expectations. You have high expectations, they will follow thorugh. You have low expectations, they will do the least amount of work possible b/c that is expected of them. My question, how cna