Eagle92

EMB, Yep you are correct in that all the BSA literature shows it the new way. But the Boy Scout Uniform Inspection sheet states the following The troop/team may vote to wear a neckerchief, bolo tie, or no neckwear. In any case, the collar should be unbuttoned. The troop/team has the choice of wearing the neckerchief over the turned-under collar or under the open collar. http://scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/34283.pdf Doesn't mention under or over on the Cub Scout or leader forms, just triangle shaped, specific to age group, and secured with a slide. Now don't make me cut off every shirt collar I and oldest son have, 'cause I'll do it.

In 1972, someone who didn't read James E. West's memo on how to wear the Scout neckerchief decided to give folks the option of wearing a necker under an open collar, over a tucked under collar AS IT IS SUPPOSE TO BE WORN (caps for my emphasis as I am a crumudeon ), and Boy Scouts only have the option so NO Neckerchief. My thoughts, and again I am an old crumudgeon, Over a tucked under collar.

Ditto what SR said. The closest to "cliques" in the OA I have ever seen are the Ceremony and Dance Teams, and even then most of them understand their role in the OA, and do not try to say they are better than anyone else. They work hard together, travel together, practice together, perform together, etc so sometimes it may seem as if they are cliquish b/c they are most comfortable with one another. But 99% of the teams I've dealt with know that they are no better, or worse, than any other Arrowman, or Scout for that matter. But unfortnately there are a few bad apples. I went to one Conclave where one lodge's dance team DID think they were better than everyone else. Acted very unscoutlike, an tried to use the excuse "We're dancers, we got to compete at X time." "Guess what, so are we, you need to wait your turn." Ran into that same lodge's dance team at two seminars. At one they removed my blanket off a bench and tossed it aside, and at another they started sitting on my blanket without asking permission, both considered extremely rude actions in the powwow world.

My guess would be to contact whoever owns the park you are camping in, i.e. NPS for national parks, state for state parks, city for city parks, and owners for private areas. As for where to go, you better not pee in my water source! Seriously though, the participant is dead wrong, b/c folks will be drinking out of the river (fastest way to tick off a Canadian in the backcounthry is to stand up in a canoe and take a wee, or worse, sit on the aft deck of the canoe with you butt hanging over the side to take a dump, I kid you not!) I thought it was 100yds from water sources, but if the LNT trainer says 200, I'd follow his lead.

1) WELCOME TO THE FORUMS! 2) 110% appropriate for wear. Although I admit I want one of the new Eagle Scout Neckerchiefs that are the correct size. Again Welcome to the forums, and back into Scouting.

J, When I attended PDL-1 back in 98, we had approx 64 DEs, EEs, and a DFiS (the Director of Financial Services was a retread, worked as a pro in another non-profit at their national level, and knew EVERYONE in national's finance division. He was a character, but I digress.) We were divided into 2 troops of 4 patrols each. When I went to the 98 NLTC, aka the "ALL HANDS Conference," approximately 3-4 months later, at the PDL-1 reunions, less than half of my PDL-1 class attended. If memory serves, only one had a legitimate reason for not attending, a new baby, but the rest were no longer in the profession. I would not recommend being a pro unless your family knew what it was getting into. I know of 1 ex-DE whose wife complained that he was gone more working for the BSA than when he was with the Marines.

That's one thing I do like very much about the LDS use of the Cub Scout program: it's still a 3 year program. But I will admit, for those who do not know how the LDS Cub program works, it does cause challenges. We had an LDS Cub at Day Camp assigned to the wrong den b/c the person assigning dens didn't realize the difference in the programs.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

My only problem with sewing is that I do not have a sewing machine and everything is done by hand. Would love to have a machine and know how to use it. Save time, energy, and money on hemming pants, sewing on patches, and of course making dance regalia for the OA dance team Luckily if I get in a bind, and the sis-in-law is not on a major costuming project, she will help. Unfortuntaley she's a perfectionist and will redo a complete costume if it isn't perfect. Everyone at one sci-fi conventioned loved her Blink Angel from Doctor Who, but she tore it apart and redid it anyway.

WOW, the few times I've seen Boy Scouts tagalong, they were doing some of their own thing. Ok dinner was with the group, I don't know of a Scout who likes doing KP, but they have slept in their own tents. Then again, I like using older scouts and Venturers since I'm an old fogey now, and have Shanghied them into doing things with the Cubs with good results.

I know the type, complain when council screws up, but when they are needed to save the day, they are there. Those are the folks that are truly for the scouts, and I'll take a 100 of them any day. You can get something done with them

Hawk, Understand where ya coming from. Glad you realize that Cubs do get a bad rep. And please bear in mind that the rant is not aimed you or at any person in particular. Dealing with with the "Cubs don't need to camp" mentality in my neckof the woods and it is drivingme up the wall. Especially since some those who are complaining are doing the exact same thing that they say the Cubsa re doing. But the question is this: do you honestly think a Boy Scout will stay in the same tent as the rest of his family or will be either A) pitch his own tent, or B) sleep under the stars? Also do you not think that the Boy Scout will not be learning the camping skills in the outdoors? Will he not use some, if not all, of his camping gear on the overniter? And think about it, what happens when Boy Scouts show up at a Cub Scout event... the Cubs follow him around like puppies asking all kinds of questions. What type of pack is that, where did you get that cool tent, how come you your sleeping bad is so small, ad nauseum. To use another GBB quote, " Scouting is Outing!" Forgot to add: Sometimes the scout with his family can get it through the most hard headed of Cubs on what do do b/c they are the cubs heroes. Doesn't matter how many times the DL says it, if the Scout says it, they will do it and imitate him. Man I miss my DC.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Hawk, Must respectfully disagree. Cub Scout family camping IS a Scouting event, so even if the Scout went as a sibling, it would count. A wise man once said, "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING." Notice he didn't say "Boy Scouting," "Sea Scouting," "Senior Scouting" as Venturing was called at at that time, or "Cub Scouting." Green Bar Bill said "SCOUTING" and that includes Cub Scouts. An aside and a vent. I am tired of folks degrading Cub Scouts. Are some of the complaints that I hear, and yes even commented on in the past, valid? Absolutely But the only way for them to learn to properly camp is to camp. And with some of the things I've seen with experienced campers doing the same things they complain the Cubs and their parents are doing. If you are doing the same thing that the Cubs and their families are doing, can you really complain?

http://www.sossi.org/exhibits/kan.pdf Scroll all the way down to see what i am talking about for the 18th World Scout Jamboree in 1995 Bart, I must respectfully disagree, the necker has hundreds of uses, and that's why BP wore one, not just to keep him warm. remember he did serve in the tropics when wearing a necker. In summertime it can cool you, wet it and place around your neck. Protects from sun and cools. If it starts getting cold at nite, tighten it up like you said. It can also be used in first aid, signalling, carrying stuff shall I go on? The problem with US neckers, and this sis slowly being resolved, is that they are nto the proper size to be useful. Now the newer ones are.

BP forgot the 3rd "M" Manpower b/c "Ashes to ashes, Dust to dust, When volunteers can't, Professionals must."

OOOOOPPPPPPSSSS!!!!!!! That should read traded my belt with Skill Awards for British NECKERCHIEF ( caps to note edit)(This message has been edited by eagle92)

'Fish, Actully the idea of using metal loops on belts started in 1972 with the Boy Scouts. They did away with them in 1989, much to my chagrin since I had just traded my belt with all my Skill Awards as they were called for a British necker from a cute Scout making her way across the USA. Only was able to get replacements, they were advancment and restricted at the time IF they were in stock, when national made repros of them a few years back. The Skills Awards and the Leadership Corps are the only two things I liked that came out of the 1972 program, but that is a different thread.

Yes sewing is a lost art. I had folks surprised that I fixed my 11yo tent by sewing a leather "pocket" for the ridge pole. They thought I should have bought a new tent, when a small piece of scrap leather from making mocs, a needle, and some HD nylon thread solved the problem.

We had one of those. Problem was he DID get in officially. Long story short he complained about everythign the entire weekend. The Arrowmen supervising him got so fed up, they sent him to the LA who put him in a 2 man work crew, an adult member of the lodge and the trouble maker. he was a sash and das as I nerver saw him again.

Whatever the uniform is or becomes, we need to wear it properly. if it goes the way of the UnderArmour experiement, i.e. rank t-shirts, I will not like it, but I will wear it. If we go the way of Europe, i.e. just the neckers, as long as the neckers are the proper size, I will not be happy, but I will support it. I WILL NOT WEAR A NECKER WITHOUT A SHIRT (Caps for joking, look at the 1995 WSJ stamp and you'll see what I mean). As for the field uniform not being practical, hear are my thoughts. 1) pants are AWESOME with the cargo pockets. They are comfortable and they work. Wish the sizing was correct. I not only wear them in scouting functions, but occasional outside of scouting. 2) Socks are better geared to hiking than the old ones. Glas they also make the heavier hiking socks that are allowed with the uniform, although I wish the socks were not stamped on the foot with BSA that comes off after a few washes. Glad they brought back knee socks. 3)The nylon version is field usable, just get rid of the smokes pocket. Do I wish the new shirt was more like the old Activity shirt or similar, not identical too, the Venturing shirt, but that's OK. I've worn it in the field before and had no problems. Eventually I will get a stripped down version to wear in the field all the time. 4) I kow the uniform is field usable not only from my experience, but form one Arrowman I saw last weekend. He lead his group of candidates in his field uniform the entire weekend.

BT, G2SS (aka GTSS and GtSS) = Guide to Safe Scouting. Up until March 1, 2011 patrols could go camping on their own without adult supervision with the approval of the SM. The newest version of the GTSS removed the patrol camping without adult supervision. Now if a patrol want to camp, they need 2 adults, one of which must be 21+ and registered.

Don't remove the cargo pockets on the pants!!!!!!!e perfect for storing all kinds of goodies in. I used them this entire weekend, and only wish they were bigger. But the smokes pocket is useless.

I've used it to store a compass in sometimes. other than that, I do not know anyone who uses the " Smokes pocket" as it is called locally.

I've seen different models work. I also know the challenges of mixing in the genders. When I worked at scout camps in the UK for 3 months, it was mostly coed units form several countries. In the UK, units had the option of being all male, all female, and coed. And I did see all three. One all female scout troop was intersting as they split off from a Girl Guide troop b/c the Scouts did more. The Finns at the time had Scouting set up as coed at what would be the Cub level, then single gender for the Scout/Guide level, and then coed at the Venturing level. I don't know how that format came about, but I do know that it is the Scouts and Guides of Finland, and their national emblem incorporate the FDL and Clover leaf. When I talked about scouting works in a coed environment over there, the answer was simple, they do so much with them, and it is so integrated that the idea of dating within the unit is absurd b/c they are "like my sister." that "like my sister" quote came form several Scouts in 2 association. I admit I've seen the flirty/show off behavior exhibited with my staffers at CSDC. We had two females that came in when their crew showed up to help, and it presented some challenges. One female nipped it in the bud real fast, the other was being a flirt, and dad had to intervene. My opinion is that it was the newness of the girls. We had a 3rd girl help out all week. First day was challenging as some of the Scouts were showing off. but her saying " knock it off I'm not interested" ended that.

When my troop's venture crew decided to become part of the new Venturing program and became a Venturing Crew, they basically kept it like a venture crew/patrol in that they met with the troop, had troop roles, etc, but on steroids. Instead of planning their own thing during some of the troop's overniters, they planned their own activities without the rest of the troop once a quarter. No one had any problems with it.

If the ceremonial team is sloppy--poor memorization of lines and delivery, cheesy attempts at building regalia--then yes, I've seen this backfire. If it's all squared away, top notch--that's a draw. There's only one was to go with ceremonial teams--first class or no class. Ain't that the truth! I know how hard doing ceremonies can be. I know how much time and effort it takes for a really good ceremony team. I also know that a good neocolonialist can pull it off, even if mistakes are made by not letting the participants know he screwed up. But having folks read from a scroll. Ok I can see a scroll wiht a list of names for Call Outs, but there are better ways of handling that, BUT the primary ceremonies of the OA? Or worse having the script pasted to the back of a shield. But the absolute worst if having a podium in the ceremony ring, having ceremonialists reading from the script, and event then HAVING THE WRONG PERSON READ A PART OF THE SCRIPT BECAUSE THEY WANT TO!!!!!!!!!! ( caps for utter disbelief when I saw that happen.)