Eagle92

MIB and ST 1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS although I do wish it wasn't in the situation you are in. 2) I understand your disgust in the way that Gray Area Scouters ( GASers), i.e. 18-20 y.o. are limited in the positions they can be in AS WELL AS the the way that some scouters Treat them. Part of the problem in regards to age 21 is that in most jurisdictions, you are not legally an adult until age 21, despite the fact that you can vote, pay taxes, and serve in the military. So that's one reason I bet for the limits GASers can serve in. As for the way folk treat GASers, as well as some of the 21+ crowd, I been there and know what you are going through. 3) In regards to being told one thing, then something else happening, unfortunately that happens in the real world. Best example I can give is Social Security in which pay into it with one set of promises, then when it comes to collect, it is completely different as, if you read the legalese as well as the 1950s or 60s SCOTUS decision, Social Security is NOT a guaranteed program, and the government can change the benefits, or even deny the benefits per the SCOTUS decision, as they please. 4) While I know you love your troop and have some loyalty to it, troops, and its members and leaders do grow. Sometimes a person does need to know when to walk away and move on, and it can be difficult. Good luck.

Yep a little consistancy would be nice form national. Also some type of notice when something new comes out. I still have folks who have not heard about the no homemade stoves, etc that came out in Nov 09. Heck I even had one leader tell me I'd have to show him a copy of it until he believed me, cause we are suppose to be teaching them to be thrifty,

Acco, I beleive at one time, there was literature that stated the ASPL was the PL of the Leadership Corps, and the LC should be treated as a patrol. I'll look it up when I get home if you want?

Agree with Blanc, send it back as they are guarenteed for life.

I've seen it where the older scouts, back in my day called the Leadership Corps, would work together as a patrol, and I've seen it where each patrol invited LC members. Oh I've also seen it where each LC members cooks for themself, but that is usually at thje "survival campout" when everyone is doing that. I'd put JASMs with the adults Good luck.

How valuabble is the project for the Scout: EXTREMELY How valuable to the organization: Depends How valuable to the troop; EXTEMELY How Valuable to the community: Depends Does it really build leadership skills: YES IF the scout does the work and nor parents and/or leaders. Would I continue: ABSOLUTELY The project IMHO is meant to be the culmination of his career, utilizing all the leadership skills and abilities he has acquired. It is meant for him to understand "Duty to Others" It allows the entire unit to help out in contribution to service, as well as publicity. That's whyI say ABSOLUTELY I say it depends, b/c I have seen 1 project be a complete and total failure in the long term and have heard of others here on the boards. the project I know about that was a "failure" was a reforestation project that one scout did that took about a month of prep work ( building metal guards to protect saplings) and month of planting. It was a great project and looked great when immediately done. 6-8 months later he visits the place, and every single sapling he planted was destroyed by the rodent that the guards he built were suppose to protect the saplings from.

Blanc, Frogive me if I've forgotten the role(s)you play, but my suggestion would be the scout to talk to the SPL and SM about being a DC first and get their input. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't is all I can say. It all depends upon the scout. Now if he is asking about it, that is a good sign that it can work.

Sorry to hear about the problems. I admit that's one reason why I try to follow the rules. Not trying to sound harsh, and I know your folks explained the situation prior to being put into roles top the leadership asking, but new leadership sometimes negates what the previous leadership allowed. And if you have new members to a committee who might not remember what was orignally doen before their time on the committee, you can get into problems. Lisa does bring up a point about age. Sad to say there WILL be folks who discount both your son and his fiance's KSAs due to their age. Trust me been there, done that, had been cursed out at, and got the t-shirt One reason why I never told folks my age when I was a new DE a few months outta college, always commenting "To old to be an Explorer, to young to retire." When it finally got around that I was a "youngin," people were surprised. I agree that if husband does nto want the SM spot, INFORM THEM ASAP!!!!!!!! I know my name kept getting on the short list for CM, and it still is, but I have to decline for family reasons. Hubby may need to repeat that he is not interested several times over several months if the issue is nto resolved. As to the situation where hubby is still involved with your son's life, the only thing I can think of is them moving away and being completely on their own once married. Somtimes that is needed to get 'rents to see their kids have grown and can do it on their own. Good luck.

You can also bring in his current shirt and fill out the papwerwork there, markign "REPLACEMENTS" on the form. A few ideas for the future that may help. 1) Don't use the badge bond, badge majic or whatever they are callign it today. It does make the shirts unservicable once you remove the badges. 2) Buy the uniforms big. I mean big enough that they have lots of room to grow in, but not look like a clown. If your Cub is a Wolf now, he can wear his new blues for three years, until me becomes a Boy Scout. Bring him to the store with ya to try on stuff b/c I know I went up 2 sizes on the pants for my son when he was a Tiger. I am hoping he can last 1 more year in the pants, and then get him in the tan and green optional uniform for Webelos. 2a) Make sure you hem the pants with lots of excess material so that you can cut the hem and redo them as he grows. I need to do that now. 3) make him have some "sweat equity" in the uniform by buying parts of it himself. He will take better care of it if it isn't just handed to him. Good luck.

each council does scout reach differently, in my council they have some "skin in the game," and not everything is provided for them. And my understanding is that Soccer and Scouting is not part of Scoutreach, or whatever it is being called now as I think it was renamed recently, but it's own separate program.

Again one of the keys is having fun along with the work. If the new Arrowmen know abotu the fun stuff, they will continue, irregardless of any challenges. I'll give you an example. IMHO our last Ordeal was a mess, a true "charlie foxtrot" as some of the Devil Dogs in my lodge commented. Why was it a mes? For the following reasons: 1) We were implementing a new schedule. OK we knew there would be a few bugs, and it was communicated so folks were OK with that. If you keep people informed, things do go a little better. 2) We had double the anticipated number of Ordeal Candidates, and had to really adapt to that problem. (which again if you keep your candidates informed WHY are waiting, etc they won't complain as much when they can talk ) To me that was a good problem. So we had folks running around getting extra food, supplies, etc. Yes we had folks waiting to get supplies, waiting for assignments, waiting for ceremonies, etc. BUT we also talked to them about how camp is 95% ready for summer camp. We talked about how they completed some major tasks at camp in less time that planned because of their number and hard work. We gave them a sense of accomplishment and they loved it. We also promoted heavily our conclave. We talked abotu all the fun that goes on, we talked about the activities that happen, etc. And guess what, we had a very high percentage of new Arrowmen attend. And formt he reports I am getting from friend who went this past weekend, they had a blast despite the rain. Moral is you gotta mix fun with the "WORK, WORK, WORK!" ( and yes that last bit is shouting as I cannot way the 3 Ws without shouting ) As mentioned already not everyone is into AIA. I admit I love dancing and ceremonies, but I know not everyone is into it. You do have to take a multi goal approach. If you focus on one area, other areas will be neglected. As a "Spanish peacock" once sang, "B A L A N C E balance," is needed. You got to mix in the high adventure, you got to mix in advance leadership, you got to mix in work, you got to mix in AIA, and of course FUN!

EV, BSA has found that most parents do NOT do stuff with their kids, so they have created a program format where 90+% of the advancement is doen at the meetings, with little done at home, and IMHO, sounds like homework. back to the OP, you do not need to get your Wolf badge to move up to the next level. I have several Cubs in the same boat, one of which has done a bunch of the elective at day camp last year, but won't get the 5 arrowpoints he earned until he gets the Wolf badge.

SCOUTREACH is (or was as I think they just changed the name)is the BSA's program to get to A) "at risk youth" i.e. those youth in high crime areas with few to none positive role models and B) those youth in extremely rural areas where scouting may not have taken place yet. In both cases you are looking are looking at folks who are in need. Financing of the program varies from council to council. Various grants and donations usually fund the program, sometimes FOS will also pay for a few things, usually the parapro's salary or volunteer's expenses. As for the role, it is really getting scouting into areas that few to no people think it will work. Yes there have been successes and failures with the program. When I tried starting the SCOUTREACH program in my district way back when I was a DE, my goal was to try and bring scouting to those who really need something positive int heir lives. I just wished I had more support, not only form the council, but also from some who said they wanted Scouting to succeed in their community. Attraction varies. Most basic is that it increases membership numbers, which is something all pros want to see. But there are pros who want the program to succeed and make a difference in the community. As for competition, varies from council to council. I've seen it where a parapro, someone who is paid to be in scouting, but has not gone through all of the DE training and may be PT or FT, will not only do the fundraising for the program, usually grants and other donations, but also serve as the leader for units for a period of time until enough volunteers are found and can take over. Sometimes the parapro is responsible for 3-5 units, serving as their CM or SM as the case may be. other places have volunteers running things, and they may get reimbursed for expenses. I know one vol who tell's the council to put any money owed to him towards a campership for his scouts.. As for Traditional program v Scoutreach, with the excpetion of the possibility of a paid leader, there really shouldn't be one. I know our Scoutreach folks do everything that other units do. Heck some folks in the district didn't even know we had scoutreach units b/c they were doing things as normal.

'96, You're not in Croatan, "WE'RE #1...17" by any chance as that descibes one of our chapter's too. '8, Yes we are Scouting's Honor Society, although Sea Scouts, Cub Scouts, and Venturers are not allowed to be in it, but part of the problem is that I too have seen being elected into the OA as a check off. Heck I had one SM upset with me and the election/camp promo team, b/c we let them know what we do and what we ask of them once they join. I hate to say it, but it appeared that he too saw it as a check off item, and not something that is meaningful and has some responsibility. What have I seen done. Chapter fellowships, chapter fundraising (this was fun in that the OA was teaching or had members workign on Indian Lore MB), Chapter work days (ok yes more work, but with a FUN twist, gotta be there to see it), chapter canoe trip, chapter Christmas party, Chapter Pool party and cook out, chapter tour of local military base, chapter candidate orientation and social, Lodge fellowship, CONCLAVE promotion, NOAC promotion. But the #1 best chapter activity was a Lazer Tag Lock in, prior to lazer tag being banned by BSA. CA owned the LT arena, and they had an all nite blast. Wish we could do that now, as I know how much fun it was, and what a great team building exerecise it was, when my camp staff in the UK did that.

My thoughts on this topic as it is near and dear to my heart. 1) Bring back the pre-1990s election method, i.e. a scout can only vote for half of those eligible max. I think that the current method has been more of a detriment, than a help. 2) You must mix play with work. Yes we are suppose to 'WORK, WORK, WORK," but all work and no play does tire people out, and think of the OA as the camp's "Slave labor corps." Whether the play is on the lodge or chapter level, you got to have some fun. 3) Visibility is a must. OA has got to be seen, outside of doign a few ceremonies for Cubs, ECOHs, and Camporees. Have the chapter do a display at the district scout show. Have a lodge set up at camporee. Do those camp promos. It's kinda sad when no one in a troop knows that the SM is not only a Vigil, but a past lodge chief and section officer. MUST GET VISABLE ( and yep I'm screaming this time around ) Ok off the soapbox.

ENG, Actually not a bad post at all. I would add this though, sometimes you also need to tell your scouts as well the same information. I know I got some really sad looks when I confirmed to my cubs that yes we are leaving at noon this past weekend, despite no visible signs of severe weather, let alone tornadoes. Folks were not happy to have the trip shortened at the time. However after the tornado that did hit my town, as well as the fact that a tornado was sighted a few miles form the camp, everyone was glad we left.

CP, Understand your concerns, and they are valid. The only units that have had major problems with the uniform inspections at camporee are the SCOUTREACH ones in my neck of the woods, and quite honestly even they are working on that, to the point that you cannot find used scout uniforms in my county at any of the thrift stores. The SCOUTREACH volunteer has contacted every single manager, given them his number and he gets weekly calls form them. When we do the inspections at district camporee, it is done as soon as they report in, and turn in their list of scouts. So the inspectors do know everyone who is suppose to be there, and does inspect them. I've seen patrols work together to scrounge up uniforms prior to arriving, and at the camporing to make sure, workign as a team. In fact one patrol got creative when a few of their scouts didn't have the socks: they got together as a patrol, and everyone had a sock on their right foot to show the inpectors Almost worked too, but one of the judges saw whatthey were doing, and had them show their other sock. They did get something for creativity or teamwork if memory serves. EDITED: Sometimes I get long winded and digress, point is patrols and troop tend to look out for each other and make sure that everyone has a compelte uniform, at least for those weekends.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Sailing, For whatever reason, I've found that camporees are going to a point system for awarding ribbons, instead of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. For example, if you have 126-150 points, you get a blue ribbon; 101-125 = Red ribbon, etc. As for the knots; hehehe As for getting interest in the program, YES!

THAT'S DEDICATION! and yes I'm shouting at ya, but in a good way

In my neck of the woods, uniform inspections are part of the overall scoring at camporees. I've been told that in some instances,the uniform inspection is what gave a patrol an advantage over another patrol.

I hate to say it, but YP is not only for the Scout's protection, but also for the leaders' as well. I know a case where a very highly regarded leader was accussed of making advances to a "scout" who did have a history of lying to stay out of trouble. I know that "scout's" history first hand b/c he lied about me and two others, saying we had given him permission to stay out late when we did not, so that he wouldn't get into any trouble. His story was that she made a pass at him after shee took her shower. Her story is that she saw the scout running around after hours on her way back from the showers, tried to correct him, and he took off, later to accuse her of making a pass. Can you guess who was removed from scouting b/c of the accusation. follow the policies.

Nothing wrong with different sons in different troops. Had that happen within my troop, older 2 brothers in mine with younger 2 brothers in another. I also know of twins who went to different high schools. THAT got very interesting during football season, especially when both schools had a tied record, we lost 1 game to them and they lost a game to us, and we had to have a playoff to determine who was District Champs.

Scouting hasn't changed alot in 10 years, but if you are not comfortable with this troop, you may want to look for a new one. Now in reference to cold weather camping, your scout should have kept an eye on the weather forcast, and have been prepared for the cold weather. If that meant he would need additional blankets, clothes, etc, he should have had them with him. I do not know how long he has been with the troop, but they should have reinforced what the Handbook tells you about equipment and clothing to bring on trips. And we also say to keep an eye on the weather. Now in reference to tornadoes, something that has hit very close to in-laws' home (try a block away this past weekend) was it a watch, meaning tornadoes were a possibility, or warning, meaning one was seen inthe area? Now here's my opinion. If it was a warning, leaving probably wasn't a good idea, as you need to seek shelter or a ditch as the case may be. A tornado was sighted, and you need to be in a safe place ASAP! If it was a watch, it would depend upon what's going on and who I was with. Last week I kept a constant eye on the weather as my pack was camping and bad weather was predicted. We had plans made and Plan B made. A few hours before arrival at camp, I sent out an email going to Plan C, leaving at 12PM before the heavy stuff, with the possibility of tornadoes, would start in earnest. No probvlems. But I know some scouts who stayed at a different camp, did keep an eye on the weather, and did have an emergancy plan in place should they come under a tornado warning. They didn't leave camp, but did take precautions.

JM, Trust me, what you wear and how you look in uniform DOES make a difference as a pro. People do judge you by how you look. If the uniform looks sloppy on you as a pro, folks will think you are not up to standards. I would not wear the current uniform for some events if I was a pro now. I'ld probably get the polywool uniform. And yes I did iron my ODL uniforms as a pro. But I was also the DE in combat utilities, soaking wet from the rain, and covered in mud form doing cheerful service at an OA Ordeal There's a time and place for everything.

BP, No I didn't miss your point. You described your experiences working at camp, as well as other DEs in your council. I'm describing my experiences. As constantly mentioned councils do vary based upon location, as well as DE in charge. In the camps I worked at, the business manager was suppose to be there the entire summer, and while usually was a pro, in two cases the BM was not. And I say suppose b/c I did have to take over some business manager duties when one had emergency surgery and was out. I have seen DEs involved in program, sometimes aquatics and othertimes in shooting sports shooting sports but also some other areas as well. My first year as a pro I had to fill several roles, including a Lifesaving MB counselor. That was the week I was suppose to be a guide on a kayaking expedition, another program position. Second year as a pro, I was suppose to be a guide again for my week ( I was getting married), only to be pulled at the last minute. The CDs for the camp and HA base were not happy campers with that decision as they had to scramble to find a replacement. And when I DID show up to camp, the week after the wedding I might add, I was "as useful as pockets in your underwear" as I was not expected to be there, all program roles were filled, and all support roles were filled, and I had no units in camp that week. So all I did was paperwork and scheduling for the fall. To be honest I think being at camp, when none of my units were there and there was no role for me to play, whether program or support, was a waste of time. Fortunately I could get out of camp when I needed to for meetings that were scheduled. And I have seen pros come to camp only to walk around and do nothing, or worse play around at camp. I can see visiting troops for a day or two, unless you got a brand new troop you're keeping an eye on then you might want to stay the week, but otherwise you are wasting your time. Now if you are working in a role, whether support or program, then absolutely you need to be at camp.