Eagle92

I too have heard that the red jacket will be gone as soon as supplies are gone. EBAY is your friend, and you can probably get one cheap there, esp in the summer. As for what can be worn on the new green jackets: everything that is authorized for the red jacket can be worn on the green one. Just as you can wear OA backpatches, the bull, loon or shark form the national HA bases, Varsity letter, etc on the red wool jac shirts, it could also be worn on the red windbreakers, as well as the old blue International Division windbreaker. If you look at the literature, it doesn't specify 'red jacket" http://scoutingusa.org/Boy%20Scout%20Guide.pdf

I know in my district, probably council too since there is a "cubs don't need to go camping attitude," OWL is not done and WDLs who do outdoor training usually do IOLS. Heck when I had a WDL as me if they should take BALOO or IOLS, I pointed them to IOLS. We don't have enough trainers in my district to do both IOLS and OWL. Plus as mentioned, the 2 courses are nearly identical.

Actually it's not that bad Base. My troop did something similar, except we used pony beads. We used wooden beads for single camp outs, 10 camp outs, week long camps, 10 week long camps, 100 weeken camps, service projects NOT used for advancement, 50 milers, totin ship, and building a fire in the rain. Plastic/glass pony beads for religious retreats and scout show. We also used arrowheads for major things: AOL, Rel Award, Eagle,etc.

Forgot to add, terrorists to not meet the criteria of protected persons under the Geneva Conventions and so are not entitled to any protections. So they can be summimarily executed. Been a long time since I did research onthe topic, and do not have time to look up the exact passages at the moment, but maybe when I get home b/c I did a lot of research onthis topic back inthe day.

I admit I have mixed emotions on this topic. On one hand torture is not a reliable method of getting intel from people in the short term, but long term it can. Look at some of the debriefings from Allied POWs in Japanese POW camps, or worse, read about the German POWs in Russian camps. There is a very good reason why Germans, and Europeans in general, were terrified of the Soviets after WWII and begged for the US to stay. Heck some German ex-POWs were so terrified of the Soviets, even after several years of living in freedom in West Germany, that they either did not want their identities revealed when working with the US or refused tio work with the US on Soviet treatment of POWs. You see the Soviets took something learned from the German Luftwaffe, playing mindgames with POWs to get intel, and added to it with communist indoctrination, Pavlov's "physiology" ( cause and effect relationship of psychology and automated responses), and some physical abuse to get results. NARA has about 2 five inch binders worth of documents on microfiche on what the Soviets did, and taught their allies the ChiComs, NKs, and Vietnamese, who all added to the process

Base and I crossposted. Base is spot on in his last paragraph. When I teach outdoor gear to the troop, pack and crew. I like to show the spectrum of possibilities. I would show the spongebob sleeping bag, and then the montbell bag. But I would have shown the differences between the two.. Construction, fill, zippers, air baffles, shape...I would have also shown the $40 Dick's or Gander Mountain Bag..... As a trainer my job is to provide information and let the student decide for themselves.

If memory serves, only Safe Swim Defense is needed for swimming events, and it can be done online. Good news is that it can be doen anywhere at anytime. Bad news is that if you've done and taught SSD, you cannot go straight to the questions, but must go through the entire online video. Oh well.

M2C, I am so sorry to hear about that, especially at a training. I know the attitude you are facing as I've seen it too. And I admit I have had it as well, even recently as a CS leader when I saw new parents who didn't know much about camping come to an event and cause problems for the staff. BUT I also know that the key is education for the new folks and patience for the leaders. Oh and BOY SCOUT LEADERS SETTING THE EXAMPLE, but I digrees (caps to complain, I've heard complaints abotu what CS parents do, then see the same person doing the exact same thing, UUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!) Now I admit I do show off some of the expensive stuff, and state that it may be a better investment. But I also show alot of the "old school" stuff that can be found in older BSHBs and BSFBs to keep it as economical as possible. I also talk about using resources to get gear, i.e. ebay, surplus stores, boy scouts selling their gear, etc.

In refence to the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to end WWII, a few things. 1) estimated, repeat ESTIMATED, US casualties for a Japanese Home Islands invasion would have been 1,000,000+ as not only would US troops face IJA forces, but also their militia, home guard, police, and cilvilian armed groups. Several documents that available say at least 1 million US deaths. I know there has been some criticism on these stats, with some folks saying that the 1000000+ figure came after WWII, but a memo from former Pres. Hoover, yes Hoover was still involved in a minor advisory role to Truman, stated the 1000000+ figure. I believe that memo is now at the National WWII musuem in New Orleans. I cannot recall estimated Japanese casualties, but I believe that I read a comment that "Halsley will have his wish," whether that was in a report I saw or historical novel I cannot remember. But it is a fact that the Japan landings would have made OVERLORD look like a picnic. 2) Please remember that in addition to the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands, US forces were working on plans to invade China and go after the bulk of IJA, which was occupying China. I can tell you that parts of those plans can be found at ECU's library in their special collections as I worked on that project. While the estimates do not come to me, if memory serves it would have been a larger operation than the invasion of Japan. 3) Yes we now know that Hirohito and part of his cabinet were thinking about surrender, and if memory serves some peace overtures were made to a 3rd party (either Vatican City or the Swiss), but the military leaders resisted surrender until after the 2nd bomb, and even then there was a coup. 4) Last time I researched this area, while there was speculation that the 2nd bomb was more for the Soviets than to get the Japanese to surrender, there was been no records found on the topic. Everything to date states that the #1 reason was to save US and Allied lives.

Actually the folks who intro'd me to the garbage cans use them solely for camp gear. They not only transport gear, but also store it, in the can.

Base, No disrepect inteded, I actually do LOVE the idea. But the last time I bought a large, wheeled garbage can, it was about $75-$80, and that was 11 years ago. I got a collapsable cart for about $52 from ALDI, an they will be in stock again this week. Now my fron wheels did break on the sucker, but I have a friend who's going weld them back on. I will not let the kids play with it again.

My thoughts. 1)Transporting gear. Biggest complaint I hear from folks who think 'Cubs don't need to camp," and also the ones who I see do the exact same thing, is that Cubs tend to bring every conceiveable thing with them, and expect to be able to drive up to a campsite and unload the car. And by transporting gear, I do mean personal gear, using carts, wagons, and my personal favorite, wheeled garbage cans. More later.

Special meal perhaps?

MIB, I know how you feel as a GASer (Gray Area Scouter,i.e. 18-21) 'cause I've been there and done that, but in all honesty I do feel that at 20 years of age, being a Chapter Adviser or Associate Chapter Adviser is inappropriate as you do have a much larger and more important role as a 20 year old in the OA: YOU ARE A YOUTH MEMBER CAPABLE OF VOTING AND WORKING THE SYSTEM TO GET THE THINGS YOU AND THE OTHER YOUTH WANT DONE! (caps for emphasis, Ok maybe a little shouting ) As a YOUTH member, you should have more control of your chapter and lodge than the "Old Fogeys," those of us over 21. I know this varies from lodge to lodge, but the youth are suppose to run things, and we are to advise. So since you are a VOTING member of the OA, who have the power to suggest and help implement things, whereas us old fogeys are only suppose to advise. But then again in a few months you too will be an "Old Fogey," at 21. And yes I know of 21 y.o. CAs, so it is allowed, but be prepared to face some "challenges" if you do become a CA or ACA at 21. Again been there, done that. Good luck.

A few months back, National was in the process of combining IOLS and WeLOT training into one course. Don't know when that will occur, but many councils have combined the course. Using reason, if national allows IOLS test out, wouldn't WeLOT also be a test out?

Check out this link, http://www.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/What_makes_a_trained_leader.pdf And note that there is no asterisk requiring OWL for tour plan review the WDL will need BALOO and hazardous weather though. Further p 15 in the current G2SS does not mention OWL needed for webelos dens to camp, and it's not mentioned at all in the G2SS. Also no where does it mention OWL being needed for camping, only BALOO and Haz Weather

Base, You'd be surprised at what folks do not know or have not done, especially CS families who are new to camping. Heck even some campaholics don't know what some consider basic knowledge. I admit I never, repeat NEVER, lit a camp stove until December 2009. I'd always use wood or charcoal prior to that. So it was interesting "testing out" my Chrsitmas present to make sure it worked and it could be wrapped up Everyone, One thing that may seem 'basic" but you'll be surprised, is to make sure the folks takign BALOO know that oen of their jobs back in the pack is to help teach the new families how to pack and camp.

From my experience working in Supply when national DID have both the Field Uniform,aka ODLs, as well as an Activity Uniform consisting of khaki shorts and a colored polo shirt based upon what you were in, red for Boy Scouts in a regular patrol, tan for Varsity Scouts, and maroon for those Boy Scouts in a venture crew (now called a venture patrol), it was not popular, people complained b/c they veiwed it as another expense, and you rarely, if ever saw them. So I don't see the BSA going towards "active wear," although I may be surprised by the results in Baltimore and their "alternative Uniform" expereiment. http://www.baltimorebsa.org/openrosters/ViewOrgPageLink.asp?LinkKey=35982&orgkey=749

You know your wife loves you, and tolerates your Scouting addiction, when she embroiders "Boy Scouts of America" on your uniform shirt over the ironed on letters. As soon as I got the the new uniform shirt, I had modifcations done to it, i.e. made button hole and redid the button on the right pocket, altered the sleeve buttons, and had wife do the embroidery. If I only went to an alteration shop and had the "smokes pocket" and Swiss tab moved up, I'd be 100% happy. On a different note, has anyone else seen Webelos wearing their ranks on the right pocket in the plastic holders b/c that is the only one with a button on it?

This is the updated G2SS and may have your answers in it. Page 29 covers shooting sports. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf

Here are some thoughts from going through BALOO and teaching one course. 1) Make sure it's outdoors. One I attended wasn't and it took something out of the training. i conducted one at camp, and folks liked. 2) Make sure you bring as much gear for display as possible. Again indoor one I attended didn't. One I did had a bunch of my "toys" as well as the other 3 folks teaching it. Some folks will need to be reminded to focus on the essential gear, and talk about the fun stuff with those interested during breaks. 3) make sure you talk about the 2011 Guide to Safe Scouting, which has some radical IMHO changes to it, and how it is updated every 3 months online. 4) Talk about the "new" new health forms and where to download them. 5) talk about additional training that is needed or maybe needed for outdoor activities, i.e. Hazardous Weather, Safe Swim Defense, Safety Afloat, etc. 6) Talk about resources in the area to get information, i.e. OA Where To Go Camping book, council approved list for Cub Camp Outs (if your council has one, don't ask ) 7) Talk about resources to get equipment, i.e. Scoutdirect.com, Campmor.com, governement surplus, Scout friendly retailers, etc. 8) Talk up the need to develop a very good relationship with the brother troop as they may have resources you may need, i.e. DEN CHIEFS (caps for emphasis), stoves, and some specialized equipment. 9) talk up RT as a source of getting new campgrounds. One opening I liked with my old BS RT Com. was that everyone introduced themselves, and had to name the last place they went camping. 10) Always remember the following, "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING," (the current BSHB has it misquoted it's 3/4, not 2/3) and "ScOUTING IS OUTING!" GOOD LUCK!

Not a good situation to be in, and to be honest your results may vary. I know in some places their membership would be revoked, and in others it would not since they left the campground and were not in the presence of youth,although the effects of the alcohol would still linger once they got back.

BP, I think I acknowledged that some lodges WERE, past tense WERE, hazing, and that there has been a very big push to clean it up. I know that since becoming an Arrowman in 1989, the 5 lodges I've been in have NOT been tolerant of anything that could be construed as hazing, to the point that they have allowed folk to be members who really should not have been, i.e. the folks who walked out of a project in the middle of an Ordeal, and a leader who refused to be quiet the entire weekend. But that is my opinion. Again I do not see the problems I've read about. But I am also one of those who will get involved and fix things if I saw them. And most of the folks I know in the OA are the same way.

I don't have the SOP in front of me, but if memory serves BOTH the lodge adviser AND the district chair and/or DE have to sign off on the chapter advisor. However I've rarely seen this happen. When I was first appointed CA, I had just come back from the UK, went to a council function, and was asked to be CA by the LA b/c the current CA was too darn busy and not doing the job right. BAd news was that I had to tell the old CA that I was his replacement. Good news was that he was planning on stepping down anyway. DE and district was not involved. When I was a DE, my SE was ticked off at many adults in the OA b/c they wanted to know where the money the OA had been saving up for several years to pay for camp renovations for conclave went to, and wanted the DE's to pick replacements for the "anti-council advisers." I couldn't do it b/c I had no idea who could replace the CA and ACA (remember my DFS told me that "I don't need to play Indian," and I hadn't attended an OA event in months), but SE was taking over on that front. When a new chapter was formed in one council, in reality re established since the council first merged the 2 districts then split them up about 2-3 years later when the merger did not work, and the DE appointed the key adult in getting the chapter restarted as CA. LA didn't know, and the district chair didn't know who was the CA and ACA, and asked us one time "you two show up at all the committee meetings, why don't you take a job on the committee?" When I became a CA for the second time, the old CA came to me, asked me to do it, gave me everything, and it was essentially a done deal. LA found out abut it at an Ordeal, and the committee found out at a committee meeting. In reviewing the procedures, I discovered that both the LA and the district need to be involved and approved. So I went to the LA with a list of folks I wanted to take my place, told the DE who removed one person from my list (he was going to be nominated for district chair) and I spent a few months finding a replacement. So things do not always happen according to SOP.

Yep there are differences in stores. National Scout Shops MUST, repeat MUST, take back items if you are not satisfied. When I worked for supply I had folks turn in stuff that was "well loved" like the 30 year old back Yucca pack and L frame which we no longer sell. Since it was no longer in the system, we couldn't give him his money back, but offered a new pack in exchange, which he gladly took. Don't know how we would have given him his money back though. Ditto a bunch of patches that someone found while moving. The patches were the old colored BS rank patches and some other patches from the 1980s, and they were still in the bag with the receipt. Scout shop accepted them, and they were very promptly sold to a collector who was in the store. But Council and local distributorships can create their own return policies. I know my local distributer will not accept damaged items at all b/c she has to pay a fee for returns. She advises that we make a trip to the national store.