Eagle92

'Nut, I agree that some DE will take quantity over quality, especially when being pressured by above. BUT the ones I met at PDL-1 were more interested in QUALITY over quantity. After all, most of us would rather do something right the first time, thna have to keep going back and back and back.....

2Cub, In my case, it was the DFS and SE who wanted me to short cut the process and get the numbers. They were the ones pressuring me to get units and members. They wanted the quick fix, and were not interested in the long haul. They were the ones that wanted to be #1 in the area and in their regional division. And I hate to say it, but unless the volunteers either A) were big FOS contributors, and B) were 100% pro council, they really didn't want to deal with the volunteers, sad to say. Let's just say that when it was announced they they were leaving, folks literally broke out champagne to celebrate those two occasions. And you are correct it doesn't make sense b/c if a unit fails, you have to restart it, which may mean doing the entire start up process again, PLUS get more units and scouts. That was the situation I was in: cleaning up predecessors messes by restarting units AND being pushed to start new units. And don't try to explain the situation to the DFS as he will just state "It's your mess, you deal with it and I don't care how you do it!" And trust me, restarting some of the units WAS starting from scratch. Now there is process that is suppose to clean up some of this mess. I' not a UC anymore, so I don't know how it is working. But I know I am not seeing all the problems that I have seen. In reference as to why new units fold, one reason is that some leaders get second thoughts, move, etc and they were a vital part of the unit. One troop I know of is still struggling after about 4-5 years with leaders b/c the ASMs either move out the area or move on to Venturing. Hopefully that will change in the next few months. In another instance, the unit was relying on a few people, that when they moved up or leave, it left a big vacuum, esp when the unit wasn't set up correctly to begin with. My pack is slowly getting it together. The key as we all know is get folks involved. The more folks involved, the easier things are, the less work folks have to do, and their is a continuity in leadership even when folks leave.

Emb, Great stuff, and yes the BSA took the name and logo from the UK. As for national doing away with venture patrol's earning the letter and pins, from my personal expereince, most units didn't even know about them. I know when I created a HA program for summer camp utilizing the program, my job was to create the "ultimate advanture" that units could do to meet the requirements. No one i talked to knew anything about the letter and pins. EDITED: Forgot to add, a lot of units in my neck of the woods still used the Leadership Corps concept as late as 1996. My unit changed the name of the Leadership Corps to Venture Crew around '94 when we ran out of patches, but they still worked as if they were the LC.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Let me back up a little b/c I may sound harsh. If the dog is trained for a purpose, i.e. seeing eye dog, search and rescue, therapy, etc. No problem. Heck I remember seeing one of my eagles at a council camporee with his dog doing an exhibition and stayed overnite. They were part of a search and rescue group. But bringing the family pet is a different story.

Unfortunately pros are focused on numbers. Trust me there was a lot of stress on me to keep membership up when I was. Their job is to get a unit started and keep moving on. Some mid and upper management want you to do a good job, others just want you to rush the process to get the numbers. Unfortunately I had the latter. There is a 12 step program that should be followed to successfully start a unit that will last. You take shortcuts, you WILL have problems. I admit I was pressured into starting 1 unit shortcutting the process to meet a goal, and it failed within a year. Of the others I started following the process, they either are still in existence 13 years, or folded 5 years after existence. Additionally even if problems are seen by the DE, their is pressure to let the volunteers deal with the problem, even if there are few to no volunteers to help out. Trust me I was not AWOL with the one pack I cut corners on b/c A) it was based at my church and B) My club chartered the pack. I had my DFS on my case to leave the pack alone and let the volunteers deal with it when he found out how involved I was in trying to get it underway after it was chartered. Luckily I could say in all honesty that I was dealing with my club's "service project" whenever I was interrogated about that pack after that first "conversation." As for commissioners, there is a need for them, and they are in short supply, esp. good ones. But I can tell you, creating and maintaining a Commissioner corps IS hard work. And most districts do not have enough.

Yep, prior to Venturing coming out in Aug. 1998, the BSA already had "Venture Crews" within the troops, as wells as Ships having crews within it. And if memory serves those older scouts in the venture crews were somtimes called "venture Scouts," kinda like Varsity Scouts, esp since they could earn the letter and pins that Varsity Scouts earn (Ok originally it was only the HA pins the older scouts could earn, just like varsity scouts could only earn the sports pins.) I know when it came up at PDL-1, a lot of folks commented that there would be confusion on this. To further add to the confusion, I've heard national level folks call Venturers "Venture Scouts" and Venturing Crews 'Venture Crews." Grant you not those that are involved inthe Venturing program, but still national, 'gold loop wearing" folks.

I've seen dogs get defensive around too many Cubs. I've had to take care of messes that the owners ignore. I have smelt tents that were urinated on. Please keep your pets home when on scouting activities.

Maybe I am assuming, and I know where that can lead but the OP laments the following 1) The fact that some summer camps are pencil whipping MBs 2) That some folks think camp is only for advancement. 3) That people who do not know what they are doing are running the courses 4) Folks are not keeping proper records. 5) Camps offer MBs that take longer than a week without informing folks ( ok that is easily solved by having the scout read the MBPprior to camp) 6) camps offer MBs that are done in a class room, what I call "paperpushing MBs" I don't like folks pencil whipping. I admit I have said camp is a great place to work on MBs b/c you are living in the outdoors for an entire week, making it easier to work on some MBs. But camps should not be spent only earning MBs, but also having fun. I'd rather have a camp not offer a MB than get someone who is unqualified to teach a MB. I do not know if many camps do this, but 1 I worked at actually had leaders help teach MBs, asking in advance, and would have a couple of "weekly specials" done by leaders only in camp that week. Best memory is the public health class, led by a public health inspector, giving the dining hall an inspection. We passed. Ok it was a bit of a paper pushing, but it is kinda unique. Not keeping proper records is a pet peeve of mine. So is people NOT reading my notes stating that the only things left are .... had an SM complain that 2 of his scouts busted tail, and I only gave them credit for 2 requirements. Should have read that those 2 requirements were all they had left. Again I am against the common "paperpushing" MBs being offered at camp, i.e. the citizenships, PM, etc. I know they are important, but they can be done anywhere. Grant you the Public Health one was a paperpushing one, but I've only met those folks in the class with it. So if it is a "unique" MB, one that doens;t have many MBCs, I cna live with it.

YES LEAVE THE DOG HOME!!!!!!!!! Don't get me started on that one.

Thanks for the links!

I'd ask the DE or whoever is running the event. While I would like them to go, there are issues that need to be addressed. I do know that some councils will go over the registrations to make sure everyone is registered on a charter. If you are not, they will flag the application to the event and ask questions. Sometimes someone is inadvertently left off. Sometimes someone joins just after recharter and the paperwork isn't pushed through.

Sound like your records may be missing, and to be honest I would not be surprised.I had to redo training every single time I moved. if you got copy of your training cards, make copies and send to the council office and ask that they reenter the info into SCOUTNET. From http://scouting.org/training/trainingupdates.aspx is this article Training Recertification Keeping Scouts safe and keeping Scouting leaders up to date with current information and methods means some of the BSA's training courses need to be retaken every couple of years. We all know about Youth Protection training and National Camping School, but there are some othersincluding some that have recently been added to the list. Below is a list of these courses and how often they should be retaken to be valid: Youth Protectionevery two years National Camping Schoolgood for five camping seasons Safe Swim Defenseevery two years Paddle Craft Safetyevery three years Aquatics Supervision/Swimming and Water Rescueevery three years BSA Lifeguardevery three years Visitation trainingevery two years Lead Climbing Instructorevery five years Climbing Instructorevery two years COPE/Climbing Inspectorevery two years Safety Afloatevery two years Chain Saw Safetyevery two years Trainers EDGEevery three years Hazardous Weatherevery two years Physical Wellnessevery two years Climb On Safelyevery two years Trek Safelyevery two years As other courses are introduced, or as our committees determine that courses have an expiration date, we will post them hereso keep watching! By the way, the Volunteer Training Committee encourages you to take the most current training courses for your Scouting position even if there is no expiration, or even if you are considered trained as a result of taking an older course. It is always better for our Scouts when their leaders stay up to date!

Beavah, If memory serves, one of the organizations that tracks charitble giving, maybe even the same one you cite, stated a few years back that it's the older population that is doign the chartible giving, not the 20-30 something crowd. Would you mind posting links as I am really interested in this topic. Kudu and GM As for service projects, especially the Eagle Service Project, I think they are important and don't think of them as a pain. I veiw the ESP as the culmination of the trail, applying what they have learned through the years. As for the new 'corporate brand logo" it is insane. Why couldn't they keep it simple "Be Prepared." It has worked since 1907.

Base, I am responding specifically to this comment, and maybe I've read to much into it, or maybe am putting a bit of a personal perspective into it from an incident this weekend: no detailed set program other than to just have fun. Yes scouting is FUN, but it is a game with a purpose. We want the youth to become self reliant, to be challenged, and to succeed. The youth WANT the outdoors, and independence. Here is the incident. My pack moved up a large den of Webeleos this past year. Some of the parents are still thinking along the lines of Cub Scouts, and it's gotten to the point where the older youth are getting ticked off with the adults interference. SM has intervened with the dads, and some of the dad are still not getting the Patrol Method and how scouting works. Sorry to go off on a tangent.

I'm the one who coined the "Al Bundy Method" which consists of sitting in a chair, I think I'll need to specify in the adult campsite form now on, sitting in a chair, drinking coffee,or tea, hot cocoa, or bug juice. Sitting back and resposnding to Scouts who ask questions with "Have you asked your PL?" If it's a PL, then the response is "have you asked your SPL?" But that doesn't mean the SM barks orders, and sits on his duff all day. rather he has trained the SPL, knows that the SPL is in charge, and lets the SPL do his job of running things. Kinda like Lem sitting at the troop building while Whitey leads his patrol on a hike in Follow Me Boys. SM may walk around to make sure everythign is going well, and if it isn't, then counsel the SPL, repeat counsel NOT oder around the SPL, unless a serious matter is involved, i.e. First Aid is needed, serious discipline problem the PLs and SPL cannot handle, or new adult leader interference. I haven't seen the ppt. but if the SM is in a chair barking orders, then that is the wrong image.

BP, If it seems as if my only reason for wearing the uniform in public is PR, then I apologize and emphatically state that it is not the case. As simple as it may sound, I really do believe what GBB said about the uniform, i.e. it is an equilizer, it is a symbol of scouting, it develops pride in the unit, etc. I mention the PR/photo op because it was a surprise opportunity. Usually the photographer takes a group picture of everyone, scouts, leaders, parents, and siblings, who have helped out and that's it. This year they did something a little different by taking pics of us placing the flags out. 'Fish, Yep "A Scout is Hungary" is the unoffical 13th point of the Scout Law.

On the pole with crosstrees that is most commonly used at naval installations, a flag at half mast has its lower edge level with the crosstrees. An ensign displayed on a pole equipped with a gaff is flown from the gaff, with halfmast being halfway from the ground to the peak of the gaff. When a flag at half-mast is lowered, it is first returned to the truck or peak for a moment before being hauled down. When this is done in the context of evening colors, the raising of the flag to the truck is done before the signal for the salute or the sounding of "Retreat" or the National Anthem. Outside the United States, the flag is half-masted when ordered by the President even if the flag of another country is being flown at full-mast on an adjacent pole. Ships not under way fly the union jack at half mast whenever the ensign is at half mast. The masthead ensigns used to dress or full-dress a ship are not half-masted. Several laws and directives govern when the U.S. naval services fly the ensign at half-mast. On Memorial Day, the last Monday in May, from 8:00 a.m. until 12:20 p.m., as described here. (Note that the practice in the sea services differs from that in the civilian community and in the Army and Air Force, where the flag is raised to the top of the pole at noon.)

BP, You think BSA would have learned its lesson the last time they tried something similar. As for this old fogey, I'll remain active, remain doing what the Scouts and Venturers ( SCOUTING IS OUTING as GBB once said and that is what the youth want) and i will complain and do my best to see things get back to where they should be. And I bet the loss of membership will help get things back to where they belong.

BP, I hate to say it, but some areas of the South still have the bigotry and racism. I myself was surprised at some things that still linger on at times. Yep MS, particularly Vicksburg, would not celebrate 4th of July because of that city's surrender in the Civil War falling on July 4th (that was as recent as 1997). I was also surprised that up to the mid 1980s, my district was divided into and all black and all white districts. Unfortunately some of that remains because if you look at the units, only 2 COs have integrated units. Now the segregation is by choice, but still. But I agree with you, "those people with all of their prejudices will all be gone and forgotten."

I too was told that they raise each and every flag. Never heard about the crane. I know who to ask tomorrow.

CC, Understand where you are coming from as I was one of those scouts. I didn't have official BSA pants until I was 14, using military pants in the meantime, and didn't have a brand new, out of the box, uniform until I worked for Supply and it was issued to me. In fact about 1/2 of oldest's uniform is "experienced." Again not trying to be shallow, but to show that being in uniform can produce unexpected things to occur. As for ideas to help your pack out, you said you have a uniform closet, have you checked out any thrift stores? I know our SCOUTREACH volunteer has an understanding with all the stores in our area that any scout related items get set aside for him. Didn't realize this until he laughed at a district committee meeting when I told him about not finding any uniforms for oldest, and he told me why. But what I find very interesting is that those who cannot truly afford the full uniform, specifically the SCOUTREACH folks and a few others I know, are the ones who try the most to be fully uniformed and take more pride in it.

BP, As I mentioned, I was getting somewhat embarrassed by having the photographer follow me and the boys around. Our job was to put out flags, not be models for the newspaper. A lot of folks were doing the same thing we were. And I am glad they got some pictures of those folks as well. But a good number of the photos on the paper's website is us. Again a little on the embarrassing side to be honest. It was just that oldest and I were in complete uniform. As Moose states, the uniform is a public image of the BSA; one that folks equate with the BSA. If anything screams out "BSA BRAND" it's the uniform. And I wish national would get that,and hopefully our CSE's expereince prior to and at jambo will make folks realize how important one standardized uniform is.

As most of you know, I think there is a time to wear a complete uniform, i.e. meetings, service projects, and the like, and a time not to wear a uniform at all, i.e. on the trail, doing some "cheerful service" with the OA, and the like. When it is time for the uniform to be worn, it needs to be complete. Green Bar Bill wrote a lot about why the uniform is important, but I will not repeat them here. My reason may seem selfish, but it is actually embarrassing to a degree: photo ops and PR. Oldest son is one of the few Cubs in his pack with a complete uniform. When we showed at a district service project with little brother in tow, He was one of the few folks in complete uniform, and little brother was wearing a pack t-shirt and camp hat. Long story short, a newspaper photographer spent a lot of time following us around while we put out flags yesterday. Eventually he followed some others, but when I looked at the photos online, about 1/2 were of my family. I'm willing to bet if others were in complete uniform, there would have been fewer pics of us, and more of everyone working. Oldest was also asked to be part of a flag ceremony at the CO today, and he was asked b/c he does have a complete uniform. The uniform does make a difference.

Some interesting points Eng. In reference to the outdoors, yep there are folks who do not like the outdoors, but in my expereince more folks want the outdoors than you imagine. It's when the program does not meet their expectations that folks leave. I admit, after I went to jambo and did my 50 miler in Canada, most weekend trips were not the same. Add to that the bad case of "The 'Fumes" I got, perfume and car fumes, well work took precedence. PLUS I had to work to help support myself and mom. While I wished I was camping, I wasn't, and dreamed of HA challenges. But eventually I wound back up camping and having a blast. Service should not be a problem. But again I see out culture becoming more and more of a ' ME ME ME ME ME ME! Culture." Ditto the fact that the key points of the Scout Oath and Law are now challenges in our society. As for units becoming focused on one religion, well I can see that as a real challenge, but do know where it is coming from. Since most COs are religious institutions, and element of favoritism to a specific religion CAN and DOES happen at the unit level, esp. is the IH is heavily involved in the program.

Not necessarily, but real dad should be encouraging him to earn his way as well. I know I did fundraisers with the troop during the school year: Clean up at some tennis tournaments, distributing flyers for a company (although that may have not been kosher) and some others. I know in my current council, if you are going to jambo or a council contingent to one of the HA bases, you can sell popcorn and get the full 67% of the sale put into you account at the scout office. Here's the caveat though: if you do not use the money for jambo or HA, council keeps all the sale. I don't think council has gotten any money out of that deal yet Also fundraisers with my home troop were also used. Like I said it took me 18-24 months. Trip was expensive because it combined jambo as well as a Canadian canoe trip (don't ask why we didn't do anything local as it is a long story).