eagle77

First off if started today it would be an indoor activity, most likely a video game to be played on X-Box or Playstation. You would not earn ranks but travel to different levels. Each level would give you different tools and things to use. HA would be easy too. Just try and climb or repel that rock face, any problems or you fall just respawn and start over. Some parents would love this. Just pay for the disk, all the equipment needed you earn or select as you go along. But the reason they'll love it most is Johnny is in the house and safe. Don't have to worry about getting along with others. Bet you BSA is already checking this out.

Hence the name Senior Patrol Leader. As a scout for 5 years this was how our SPL was selected. This kept PL on there toes. Of course back then, at least in my troop the scouts had the control of their troop. New SM new policies. All of a sudden all kinds of elections going on at different times of the year. Little by little you could just feel the adults pulling more and more of the program into their area and away from the scouts.

What form is that?

When BSA unleashed their "urban" program in 1972 they made a big effort at attracting inner city kids. I was in Philadelphia Council at the time and when we attended summer camp all you saw were, I hate saying this Black troops. They were out fitted in brand new uniforms and gear. Very few though really looked like they were having a good time. I think part of the problem pure and simple is history. Why are many of us in scouting? Why are many of the scouts in your troop in scouting? They either did the program themselves and passed it on to their children or had a family relative who did. I don't think the reliance on churches has anything at all to do with it. Minoritys attend church as well as whites. I think BSA has tried to make an effort to attract the others. How well and which ways is another discussion.

That's kind of the reason that the PLC at one time did the T-1st Class BORs. No good PL would want to hear any of the scouts in his patrol didn't know or couldn't remember something. That is why at meetings (both troop and patrol) PL's would work with the patrol members on advancement . But I agree too that scouts need to be held accountable.

Its not a matter of fault as much as what should be reported to him. Let's say 5 kids in the last 3 months have had problems with say knots. Well the Board should be letting him know that maybe we need to up the ante a little when it comes to this area. Acco is a little bold with "finding a new SM" but it should be used to help the SM know the weakness and strengths in say training or teaching and maybe a little adjustment to program.

To a certain degree I feel the same. Problem is being seperate seems to be the "old fashioned way" look the Little League World Series last year, the girl from the Philly team, even though her team did not make it to the finals it was all the rage. Too much if you ask me. All the Catholic High Schools in my area that were once seperate are now co-ed except for the "Prep" schools. Now you have a female coach in the NFL, what the heck why shouldn't BSA jump onboard too.

Cool. I like those cookies better then popcorn.

Because they are playing it over and over. Why would I want a scout to learn a skill and never use the skill in the program? Since program is the SMs area he should be checking and making sure that the program calls for the use or teaching of the skills. The repetition is what keeps the skills fresh in the scouts mind.

If not that he could pass as your twin.

I agree it is about the FUN. I have heard from other leaders about getting older scouts to camp. The only time I have had any boys miss summer camp was one year two brothers who were on vacation and could not reschedule. I live in an area where there are plenty of camps and programs to choose from and I take full advantage of it. Every once in awhile I'l present a camp that's a little further away. Our troop is located just above Phila., Pa. One year I offered the boys the chance to go on a long summer camp. We went to Camp Bud Schiele in western NC the cost for camp, trans, and added meals was still cheaper then going 15 minutes away to our council camp and the kids had a blast!! By the time we were heading home some of them were even talking with a little southern drawl. Right after I have rested from camp I'm looking on line for places to go next year. Put all the info together and present it to the boys for them to choose. I know of troops that, even though they don't have to, go to the same camp year after year. Boorring. Some of the fun simply comes from the adventure of being someplace you haven't been before. I've had other SM in my district tell me that I should only go to out of council camps once in awhile. Well I tell them I answer to the scouts in my troop before I answer to anyone. If the boys don't want to go there then why take them?

I am not trying to be smart here. Just one question. Do you go through all of that when any of your boys go to see a MBC back home or just at camp? At camp the ASMs and myself will walk around to different areas and look to see what is going on. The most important thing is that the boys are enjoying themselves. Before I go to the leaders meeting at the end of the week our SPL sits with all boys and ask them if they had comments about the MB that they took. If there are any negatives or positives I will pass that along at the meeting. That is as far as I as SM can take it. Now just as we tell parents to look for another troop if unhappy with the one they are in, then maybe, if possible do the same when it comes to summer camp. You are really going to drive yourself crazy if you try to control every aspect of your scouts experience. Lets worry more on the ones that we have direct control over.

That's a shame. Everytime I see something like this I am so grateful that our troop is in an area where selection and variety exist.

What was even more surprising is the parents seemed to be accepting to it too. I'm sure they may have been a little more happy if they were to have earned Eagle, but all in all were just happy that their sons were having a good time and enjoying it. After aging out 1 boy moved away the other 3 would take part in the troop program while on summer break. Gave them ASM patches and had them do YPT it was great.

I had four scouts who aged out. One was Life the other three were Star. Not one single one of these boys had any interest in becoming Eagle. Sat and talked with each at different times the main thing that all four said was we are not here for the advacenment or rank we are just here for the adventure and good time. These boys also did very well at the different leadership positions that they held. All four never missed a summer camp or HA trip that we had while they were in the troop. .

I understand what your saying. Scouts and at times their parents can be pretty picky about which trips they will do and which ones they won't. I have the SPL work with the PLC to do what they call skills trips. In fact every trip we do has some skill involved, but on general campouts they will work on more. Heck one Friday night as we were just getting ready to pack up for a trip the SPL pulled me aside and said something to me, I told him okay. He then went inside and told the QM to only issue Dutch Ovens and charcoal to the patrols. All cooking will be done with Dutch ovens this weekend. Well I don't know who was more taken back the scouts or their parents. Tell you what though we had some pretty inventive and tasty meals that weekend. I understand what others are saying concerning BORs it just is not the way the program is designed. Just keep the retesting out of the BOR.

The discussion is about EVERYTHING. It's not a test for the scout as much as a chance for the troop to see where their program stands. What areas are we weak in, what type of leadership is working or not working. I've been an Eagle Scout since 1977 and I could still pass any type of "retest" you want to give me. The only area I'm weak on is the star constellations. The reason for this is not the fact that I had some SM that added to the requirements and retested me, but because I was made to use those skills and teach those skills time after time. Not pass some rank exam.

This is what BSA says a BOR should be 8.0.1.1 Not a Retest or "Examination" Though one reason for a board of review is to help ensure the Scout did what he was supposed to do to meet the requirements, it shall become neither a retest or “examination,†nor a challenge of his knowledge. In most cases it should, instead, be a celebration of accomplishment. Remember, it is more about the journey. A badge recognizes what a young man has done toward achieving the primary goal of personal growth. See "Personal Growth Is the Primary Goal," 2.0.0.3. It is thus more about the learning experience than it is about the specific skills learned. See also "Mechanics of Advancement: In Boy Scouting and Varsity Scouting,"4.2.0.0. A Scout must not be rejected at a board of review for reasons unrelated to advancement requirements. For example, he must not be rejected just because he did not bring his Boy Scout Handbook with him or because he was tardy for a board of review, but the reason for his tardiness may certainly be a topic for discussion. 8.0.1.2 What Should Be Discussed During the review, board members may refer to theBoy Scout Handbook, Boy Scout Requirements book,Troop Leader Guidebook, and other such references. The Troop Committee Guidebook, No. 34505, has examples of appropriate questions. A Scout may be asked where he learned his skills and who taught him, and what he gained from fulfilling selected requirements. The answers will reveal what he did for his rank. It can be determined, then, if this was what he was supposed to do. Discussion of how he has lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law in his home, unit, school, and community should be included. We must remember, however, that though we have high expectations for our members, as for ourselves, we do not insist on perfection. A positive attitude is most important, and that a young man accepts Scouting’s ideals and sets and meets good standards in his life. A board of review may be conducted posthumously if all the requirements were met prior to the Scout's death. See topic 5.0.6.0 for more information. A positive attitude is most important,and that a young man accepts Scouting's ideals and sets and meets good standards in his life. A board is not required to record “minutes,†but it is a good idea. Any such notes must remain confidential to the members of the board or to administrators with a need to know. They may be used in preparing a follow-up letter, should a Scout be turned down, and they can be helpful in an appeal process. In any case, once a review or appeal is completed, all notes must be destroyed. I am from the old days (40+ years ago) and never did I have to pass or be retested for my advancement. Never.

I was at RT one time when this very discussion was going on. There were a few there that also used your reasoning to justify altering or changing the BOR requirement. The reason for learning and knowing the skills of T-1st class is because these are the basic skills needed to further you on in the scouting program. You learn them, you use them, and you teach them. They are the basis that will take you further into the MB program, backpacking, hiking, HA, etc. The yearly program of meetings and activities should include different areas of these skills. The repeated use and teaching of these skills is what ensures that our scouts ALWAYS remember the core skills.

That is really interesting I had heard something like that but didn't know how far back it went.

Just because that was what was done in your troop does not make it right. I joined scouts in 1970 and for Tenderfoot - 1st Class i was reviewed by the PLC of the troop. Star - Eagle were adult. None of my reviews involved any type of retest or doing requirements over. In 1972 they changed the name to Personal Growth Agreement. One part involved a discussion with the SM the other part was called a progress review. From the Boy Scout Hanbook. Progress Review: The progress review is done by your troop leaders. They will talk to you about your progress.They want to make sure that you have done all the things you were supposed to. This means that your book is signed and up to date. They will also want to learn what kind of scout you are. They want to help you become an even better one. The Patrol Leaders Council will review you for Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class. The troop committee will review you for Star, Life. and Eagle. The only difference that I had from this is my Eagle BOR was done on the district level and had 1 committee member from my troop. So nowhere in the handbook does it even say retest or redo. In my troop there was one way to fail a BOR and that was to not have your handbook or be unprepared. You would simply have to wait till next week.

My mistake. Those scouters and parents are the ones who don't get it. They are also the reason that many camps are more set today for MBs then for adventure. By this I mean very little open time at different activity areas. The fact that Torchwood had troop swim time surprises me most of the camps that I have been to have done away with that.In fact his camp sounds like a very good camp. Summer camp should be an oppurtunity for boys to also try new things. They don;t want to work on Rifle shooting MB but sure would love the chance to just shoot a little. But because of the number of boys taking the MB and needing to get their target shooting in many times there is very little time for the "I just want to check it out" scout. If that's the case then we are both on the same page with this.

Seriously, you look at partials as "success" or "failure"? MBs are complete and partial. I've had boys go to camp to do the "camp" requirements for a MB and come back and complete the written after camp, not because they failed at camp but because, and I quote "why would I want to sit at a table and write when there is so much more to do". The problem I think is many SM and leaders don't look at the boys in an individual type manner, what one boy may have no problem completing another may be overwhelmed. My goal as SM isn't to have boys earn as many badges as possible. My success or failure is that each boy had a fun and learning expierence.

Since I don't know your "nephew", his troop leadership, or the camp that he attended I do not feel qualified to comment there. What I will say is from my expierence in taking the boys to 15+ plus summer camps (22 summer camps altogether at 15 different camps) is be prepared to be disappointed. The main area that I look at are the MBs when camps started offering "first year programs" I looked at them too. For the most part I only found 1 camp that ran any kind of desent first year program. After a couple of years of that I talked it over with the PLC and they came up with a first year trip that we would do locally and have both scouts and at times adults work on T-1st class requirements this way we know what the boys can do. Now merit badges is a whole other ballgame. All camps I've been to pencil whipped these, some more than others. Do not get me wrong some camps try harder at having the scouts work and complete the actual requirements. They are the minority though in my research. I am not some hard*** but I do expect the scouts to do the requirements. For some badges that many might say aren't Eagle required or fairly easy who cares. On many instances I have talked with Progam Directors and asked them, What gives? I remember 1 guy who asked me to walk outside with him, well each of the areas had their directors and some staff to answer any questions. Well there was only 1 area that had any real number of scouters hanging around and getting kind of loud. He said that the waterfront area and the reason there are so many there is because they give out the most partials. He then said "How many weeks are you going to put up with that"? This is something that National needs to fix. Until National REALLY takes its advancement policies seriously why should we? (I mean this sacastically)

You always refer to the membership numbers. I think BSA knew already they were going to take some kind of hit with this issue. I also think thats the reason they have dragged their feet for so long on how to address it too. Are they doing this because of outside pressure? Again I don't think that is the only reason. I think that they may also be getting pressure from within, by other religions that charter BSA units who do not believe that these people should be omitted from a program that they sponser units for. So BSA says those religions that liked the old way may continue with that and have our full support, those that don't are free to allow these members now and have our full support. I think it would have been better if all CO's religious or not have the "local option", but some have pointed out that there may be some legal issues concerning that.