Albert_H

I think for the most part, the comments have been that the boys being shirtless was not a problem. The only other comments have been that the ASM who initially brought this up has a problem, not that the boys should have been told to put shirts on. So, I'm not sure there are any "prudes" other than perhaps the ASM that started the whole thing in our Troop. Just my thoughts... Al

I'm back from our chat with the ASM. It seems that his concern comes from something that he was told earlier in the week last year at camp. He said that one of the younger Scouts mentioned to him having heard another younger scout make a comment about the muscles of one of the older Scouts. He took it that it was meant in a "sexual" way, but when I asked if he knew that it was intended that way he said no. I explained that many of the younger Scouts look up to the older Scouts as role models and that the comment could have been a totally innocent with a meaning like, "wow, I want to be strong just like Johnny". We also explained that there are rules in place that Scouts are not to be parading around camp shirtless, but that our campsite is our home for the week. Occasionally seeing a boy walk around our campsite shirtless is going to happen and we did not think it was a problem. We further explained that even if we stopped all public displays of bare chests in our campsite, that the boys will still see each other at the showers and at open swim times without shirts on. After three cups of coffee on a chilly night on their patio, we all agreed that it probably wasn't much of a concern. We did say that we would keep our ears open and make sure that there are no rude, crude, or otherwise inappropriate comments concerning anyone's anatomy. However, it will be handled by the SM, and ASMs (if the SPL and PLs need help). We called the Committee Chair from his patio and let her know that there would need to be no action by the committee. She was relieved and said that they would bring it up at the next meeting only to say that it was handled by mutual agreement of the SM and ASMs. Thanks for all your comments. I really needed the conversation for a reality check. Oops, I just stepped on the mouse turd, guess I can put the pole away; no more pole-vaulting over mouse turds! :-) Al

OK, just to clarify something, and perhaps it's my fault for the way I have explained things. This is really not that big of a deal in the Troop. It was brought up once at camp last year and now in one committee meeting. The truth of the matter is that everyone likes the ASM in question and doesn't want to hurt his feelings or upset him. In that vain, I am leaving now to meet our SM. We are going over to the ASM's house to speak to him to see if we can understand where he is coming from. Hopefully we can come to some kind of reasonable resolution. By resolution, I mean something that will satisfy him. No one else is really that worried about the situation. Thanks again for all your comments. Al

In the thread this one is spun from, the question was asked why we had a somewhat inactive ASM. The answer is simple. Our Troop will sign-up any willing adult to be an ASM, even if they can only attend a couple of outings per year. We even have ASM's who are away at college and we're lucky to see them on one outing per year and just a handfull of meetings in the summer. It was stated that by the same person in the other thread, that their SM hand picks each ASM and each patrol has an ASM assigned. I'm assuming that this means that there is basically the same number of ASM's as Patrols. While this sounds great and I'm sure it is best if the SM hand picks his ASM's, I'm wondering if this is reality for most Troops out there. So... Are all of your Troops ASM's hand picked by your SM? Does each ASM have a specific job? Thanks, Al

Yes, I also don't think this is something that the Committee needs to handle, but it was brought up at the meeting and the Committee promised to respond by the next meeting. Since posting this last night, I have received two phone calls from Committee Members who also don't think this is something for them to even address. The Committee Chair also feels this way, that's why they want my input as the adult leading Summer Camp for the last 4 years. As far as this guy being wound tight and micro-managing, he normally isn't that way. In fact, he normally doesn't even come on outings (only comes to meetings sporatically), but tends to make most Committee Meetings. When he is around he is generally quiet, but he does pitch in and is a help. His son is signed up for summer camp this year, but as far as I know, he (the ASM) is not going this year. It was asked how we responded to him when he made the comment at camp last year; as I recall nothing was said. I think we looked at each other, shrugged our shoulders and perhapse grunted or something like that. Like I said, nothing more was said and no action was taken. As far as I know, the boys never heard anything about it. When he brought this up at the Committee Meeting, I asked him how far he would like to see us take this, and asked him "what a boy does that sleeps without his shirt on and gets up to go to the latrine, do we make him put on a shirt at 2:00 am?". That's when he responded with his comment that he's not sure we should even allow them to sleep without a shirt on. I really don't understand where he is coming from on this one, but I don't see the Committee doing much of anything as they really don't like to interfer with how we handle such things on an outing, they really view this as an issue for the PLC, SM, and/or ASM's to handle. As far as being adult-led, I could see it going that way if the likes of this ASM were to be in charge, but as for now, things are very much boy-led. Thanks, Al

Thanks for the replies... I hope to get some more feedback as our Committee Chair wants my feedback before the Committee takes any action, if any. I really don't think anyone else (adults) have a problem at all with what happened. As a rule, you wouldn't normally walk into our campsite and find shirtless boys. Like was said it was extra hot and they were on their way to bed. I'm trying to gather my thoughts and come up with a suggestion for our CC. I am an ASM not the SM, but have acted as Summer Camp SM for the last several years (our SM cannot take a week off in the summer). The ASM asking for action here is a new Scouter. His son joined Scouts just before camp last year, having never been in Cub Scouts or any other Scouting organization before. Thanks for your additional feedback... Al

So the week we were at summer camp last year had to have been the hottest week all summer. We're talking 100+ degrees during the day and 85-88 degrees at 9:00 to 10:00 at night; oh and very high humidity. Some of our Scouts were going down to take cool showers before going to bed one night and came back and hung their towels on the clothes line and proceeded to get ready for bed. In the process, a few of them sat down with the other boys that were talking under the dining fly before going to bed - four boys sat there shirtless. We, the adults, were sitting accross camp in our adult area. One of our ASM's mentioned that he didn't think it was appropriate for the boys to be sitting around camp without their shirts on. Nothing further was said and no action taken. However, as we prepare for another camp experience, this ASM brought the whole thing up at last month's committee meeting. He is asking for a statement from the committee regarding this issue and wants a policy set. (this in a Troop that has no by-laws even) All of our Scouts are instructed that they must wear appropriate attire when walking around camp. This includes shirts, closed toed shoes and pants or shorts (even when walking to/from the shower). That night, I'm confident that the boys came back from the shower with shirts on, but that's not even the question. The question is whether boys can be without their shirt while in our campsite. In this case, they were in the process of getting ready for bed; brushing teeth and hitting the latrine one last time. So, it's not like it was all day, but was just a few minutes. Is that OK, or should we really make a specific policy for camp? And what about a 2:00 am stroll to the latrine, do they have to put a shirt on if they're sleeping without one? Our ASM isn't even sure we should allow them to sleep shirtless. Not sure how we could enforce that without violating G2SS... Thanks, Al

I should point out that by this time; we (the adult I contacted earlier and I) have contacted the other two adults to discuss the situation. They also agree that it shouldn't have happened. Beavah, I would never act as you indicated. This is why I have made sure to contact these men personally. They will be the people at the meeting to bring this whole thing up. They will lead the discussion toward making sure that the committee and other adult leaders understand that this should never happen again; zero tolerance. I on the other hand, will bring up my own transgression which was to sit by and let it happen without saying anything and will lead the discussion toward making sure that the committee make a strong statement that it is our responsibility to call others on these types of infractions. We will clear the air, we will move on, we are committed to staying friends and working together, and no more adult beverages at Scout functions!(This message has been edited by Albert_H)

"So, you are using some posts on a message board as an excuse for not following one of BSA's very EXPLICIT rules??? Really?? Grow up Good Grief! Wow, so sorry to disappoint you! If you read my original thread, I was already admitting to the fact that I realize that I did the wrong thing, and basically admit that I was stupid & lazy for not having done the right thing, because of the cost. I came here for advice, not insult. Its easy to hide behind your anonymity; most of us here do that, and Im sure that face to face your comments would be friendlier. Everyone else has given some thoughtful and kind advice, thanks to all of you. The responses seem to be firmly on the side of the fact that I should have taken action at the time or I should take action now. Action being anything from a friendly chat with these fellows, to going to the SE to have them removed from the program. I too feel like I should have said something at the time, but yes the comments from some on these forums (in threads like the previous one) made me think that to call someone else on a rules violation was actually being too harsh, too judgmental, Holier than thou or whatever. That was the clear statement of some; indeed some who seem to have now changed their minds in this thread. I have decided what I will do in this case. I have already contacted one of the adults involved on this outing. He has apologized to me and agrees that this should not have happened on an outing, and that he knew at the time that they were violating the rules. I will make sure to be at the next committee meeting where he and I will bring it all up for discussion. Discussion that will lead down the road of admitting that what was done was against the rules and in such a way that it is recorded in the minutes of the meeting that we as a Troop take a stand that this rule will be obeyed in the future. Further, I will want the discussion to cover the other adults role in policing the other adults adherence to the G2SS on future outings, thus admitting my mistake in not stopping the action before it happened. thanks,

To clarify; No youth were consuming alcohol. The three adults who were consuming alcohol: One is the COR and father of one of the Scouts on the outing Second is a committee member and is husband of the Committee Chair and father of the SPL Third is also a committee member and father of one of the Scouts on the outing Two have been trained and all three know the Guide to Safe Scouting...

I am a bit confused about what to do with a give situation or what should have been done. Our Troop went on an outing recently where we stayed in a large cabin. There was a bunk room for the boys and a separate bunk room for the men. All went well with the outing except that both nights the flask of whiskey came out. The first night it was just one or two mixed drinks (coke & whiskey) before bed. Thinking about the thread on the Scouter.com forum that this thread is spun from, I did not want to be judgmental or step out of my proper place to point out the clear rules infraction, so I said nothing. After all, it was just a friendly drink or two among grown men. The second night, the drinking was a bit more liberal and was started with the SPL sitting at the table. All of the other three adults on this trip (with 22 boys) were visually impaired by the time they went to bed. I again said nothing but realized that it would have been easier to stop if Id said something the night before. I now wonder if I should have said something at the time or if I should say anything now? There is a clear divide amongst Scouters on these forums as to if it is my place to say anything at all, and Im torn within as to what is the correct way to handle these situations. This was clearly a danger as only one adult would have been capable of acting in an emergency. This put all the boys in our care at risk. Sometimes I wonder if ignoring others violation of the rules is simply laziness it is after all the path of least resistance. Sometimes doing the right thing comes with a cost. Did I do the wrong thing to avoid the cost; which in this case could have been damaged friendships?

Good Day, In our case we try to do as SMT244 mentions. We do all of our planning with School calendars sitting on the table. If we have half of our Scouts in Band, then we do try to schedule outings around their contest dates and parade dates. Typically band does not interfer with weekly meetings. Similarly we try to avoid Dance and Homecoming weekends when it comes to our Troop outings and COH's. I know this sounds like a lot of stuff to schedule around, but even with 2 School districts represented, we seem to be able to do pretty good at avoiding most stuff. When it comes to High School Football there's not much that you can do as every Friday Night during the season the Junior Varsity and Varsity are playing and every Monday Night the Freshmen play. Typically, if a boy wants to make a Troop meeting, he can. Football practice usually gets over earlier than we start our Troop meetings. Of course if he has a lot of homework he may need to skip the meeting. One of my best suggestions is to go to the Band Director, the Chorus Director, and the Coach(es) and introduce yourself. Explain that you want to do your best to work around their schedule when it comes to Scout planning. I have found that they appreciate it and will work with you. I have even had Football players excused from weekend practice to join the Troop at a local College game. I've had special permission for the Boy Scouts in Band to come directly to the parade route instead of riding the bus to the parade route, so they could go on an outing. It has worked for me, hopefully it can for others as well. Al

Hello, Shortridge said, "It would also require some changes to the logistics of conducting an Ordeal". Can you explain what changes would be required? Since we already have women involved, how does an 18-20 year old woman change things? Xtreme has asked about an 18-20 year old female ASM joining the Order. It does seem that a woman whose family has a history of Scouting involvement could join as an ASM at 18 years old. Not all 18-20 year old females will be a part of a Crew as there are some areas with no Crew nearby. According to the comments here, an 18-20 year old female ASM could not be a part of the OA. It seems that Xtreme has identified the only person in a Troop that is not eligible for OA membership. Any boy has the opportunity to join after meeting the requirements, any male adult (18 and older) has the opportunity, any female 21 and older has the opportunity, but a female (18-20) who is a legitimate Adult Volunteer of a Troop is excluded. Any more comments on this for Xtreme? Any more clarification? Al