DYB-Mike

I also noted the inclusion of The Golden Compass in the Scouter Magazine article. I have not read the books but I am familiar with the controversy. Heres an interesting twist. I had read an article in a local paper a while back highlighting a book called Killing the Imposter God: Philip Pullmans Spiritual Imagination in His Dark Materials, co-authored by Donna Freitas. Ms. Freitas believes the Pullman is not promoting godlessness at all. Her theory is that the God that is overthrown is not God in the spiritual sense but an imposter God, a.k.a. a representation of a worldly, oppressive, secretive, hierarchy, a.k.a. the Roman Catholic Church. Ms Freitas is a Catholic and my guess from the article is that she is a proponent for a more open, simpler Church, such as what movements like Voice of the Faithful are striving for or like the early, more communal, Church. The article goes on to say that Pullmans books are recommended by no less an august a figure than the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, who feels the books raise questions that are extraordinarily deep. Ms. Freitas later interviewed Pullman, who was familiar with her book. While Pullman was polite and intrigued, it appears he did not blurt out By God, shes got it with regard to Ms. Freitas theory. It looks like you can get something out of a book that perhaps the author didnt intend. YIS, Mike

Packsaddle, Ouch! I think Im one of those self-described history buffs you are referring to on the other thread. Ill admit to perhaps not having the depth of knowledge on this subject as some and I tried to substantiate my position by on line research and books, but it never occurred to me to search the Scouter Forums for the causes of the American Civil War. How to remove a scoutmaster or where to put the Universal Emblem, yes, but not the causes of the Civil War. At a minimum at least I can say I profited from the exchange of viewpoints. I really need to stay out of Issues and Politics. As somebody said, it just raises the blood pressure. YIS, Mike

Buffalo Skipper, Oh the irony! One thing I did not mention in the discussion was that our Pack was awaiting word on whether our Wolf Den Leader would return this year. Well, we just got the word no. The reason? Her son has dropped out of cub scouts! We had heard rumors about her son being up and down about returning but now have the confirmation. She has another boy, a Webelos, who is remaining, but apparently she doesnt want to lead the Wolf Den if her younger son isnt in it. For the record she was a good Tiger Den Leader and has, and Im sure still will, helped out the Pack in other ways. Now begins the scramble for a new Wolf Den Leader. While I stand by what I said about listening to our kids and their opinions, I can now also say that I feel your pain! YIS, Mike

Buffalo Skipper, Now I see where youre coming from and the problem is somewhat different from what I understood it to be. It appears not so much Johnny wanting to drop out as Mr. And Mrs. Johnny not holding up their end of the bargain. Maybe if you prepared a Notice to Parents, separate from your packbook, that succinctly (no more than two pages) outlined what your expectations for participation are, how casual attendance can be detrimental on several levels (boy, den, pack), and that for the pack to run a successful program the cooperation and assistance of the parents is essential. End on a high note though: By making the commitment your son, and even yourself, will enjoy a beneficial and fun scouting experience. The Notice should be brief enough for parents to skim through at a Roundup to help them determine if they can meet the commitment you expect. I dont think there is any easy way to state what you expect and not risk putting some folks off your requirements are what they are. Better that parents recognize that they cant or dont want to be bothered making the commitment up front than having them sign Johnny up and then letting everyone down. I naturally feel badly for the boys in this case though, particularly if they really want to participate. Nice packbook by the way. The link you provided didnt work for me but I found it by browsing. Thats something our Pack is hoping to develop in the near future. YIS, Mike

Hi Buffalo Skipper, I may have been a little harsh myself. I guess it was the stupid question that got me. I wholeheartedly agree that we as parents must exercise our authority when necessary, particularly in the event of non-stop video game marathons. I also believe that it doesnt hurt to engage our kids in decisions about them. Ive gotten some surprisingly rational responses from my children. Ultimately we parents make the decision but I believe that by showing that were willing to listen and that we value their opinions we build relationships that hopefully will serve us in the difficult teen years. Ohio Scouter probably gave the best advice for retention: make sure youre offering an exciting and varied program that no kid in their right mind would say no to. If you want to send some subtle hints to parents via your newsletter start a regular column like The Benefits of Scouting. Include lists of famous scouts and eagle scouts and quotes about how scouting benefited them. Appeal to ambition (An eagle scout recommendation letter goes a long way with colleges and prospective employers) or thrift (Scouts often get discounts at sporting goods stores). Ask your scouts what they like most about scouting and include that too, sort of boy-to-boy communication. You could print up the Benefits list and distribute it at Roundups. As a pre-emptive strike of sorts you could distribute the list to all your scout families with a cover letter that reminds them of the ways their son is benefiting from his participation in the program. If you are aware that a boy has dropped from the program you could send the list with a different cover, sort of like what you get in some junk mail solicitations: Before you throw this away please read this. Say that youre sorry Johnny is considering dropping from the program and are they fully aware of the good times and other benefits hell miss. Follow this up a few days later with a phone call to make sure they got the letter and to see if Johnny has reconsidered his decision. If the parents are still insistent that Johnny (or, more than likely they, the parents) doesnt want to continue I think theres little you can do beyond letting them know that Johnny is always welcome to return if he changes his mind. YIS, Mike

to (politely) express how stupid a question like this is for a parent to ask their 8 year old. Buffalo Skipper, doesnt that seem somewhat harsh? Are you saying that we should force our children do things they dont want to do? While I understand youre trying to prove a point I dont think the analogy holds. Forcing a child to remain in elementary school and forcing a child to remain in scouts are apples and oranges. Whether we like it or not our kids are not always going to be interested in the things that we would like them to be interested in. My wife is the athlete in the family. She played sports in school and her dream was that her children would follow in her footsteps. Unfortunately, our children take after their Dad, who lacks ability and the interest to develop it (an example of how opposites attract). We put our kids into soccer, baseball, and track. They were willing to try it but out on the field they usually just goofed around. Although they showed some promise they lacked the desire to develop it. Now, my wife could get on their case and drive them, but for what? She realizes that that would only be selfish of her. Our kids need to find their own interests, not necessarily Moms or Dads, and we as parents need to support their choices, so long as they are not illegal or self-destructive. Whats the point of forcing a kid to remain in scouts if he doesnt want to? I would think an unhappy or disinterested kid would be a headache for the den leader and/or a distraction to the other boys. I also hate to see boys drop out and I agree that we should work to retain them but I wouldnt frame it the way you propose. Rather than dictate youre 8, you dont know what youre talking about, and youll do as I say, I would be more inclined to advise parents that if they find that their son is loosing interest in scouts to sit down and try to get at the reasons why. If the den and/or pack meetings are boring then perhaps a polite talk with the leadership or a change of pack might be in order to spice things up. Maybe Mom or Dad getting more involved in the pack might help. Perhaps helping son to recruit more of his friends would make things more fun for him. If suggestions such as these fail and the boy just isnt interested then I dont see the point in forcing him to remain, particularly if he expresses the desire or displays the abilities to do something else worthwhile. Just my humble opinion. YIS, Mike

Scout, In musing over the discussion concern Lincolns actions and the Civil War Ill admit that Gold Winger and yourself presented attitudes and information that I was not fully aware of and, while my own opinion may not have completely changed it certainly has given me some food for thought and Im appreciative of that. It also caused me to remember an discussion we had a while back where you bemoaned the fact that traditional history (I believe I referred to it as one-dimensional) was no longer taught in schools and that modern history (warts and all) seemed to be concerned with presenting facts, including the viewpoints of indirect players on the historical stage, that worked to undermine our traditional views of historical events and personages. Ill have to say the views expressed towards Lincoln and the Civil War by Gold Winger and yourself were nothing like what I was taught back in my traditional history classes in the 60s and 70s. Maybe the warts and all approach of modern history isnt such a bad thing in helping to achieve a fuller understanding of people and events. YIS, Mike

Gold Winger, If Lincoln hadn't been a nut job, hell bent on having a massive war, sending thousands to die for an unpopular cause, who knows where we'd be today. Unpopular war? Remember the draft riots? The potential for bloodshed would still be there. We would have two countries instead of one, each competing for possession and/or dominance of the western lands. At some point the South would have experienced some sort of emancipation movement amongst the slaves themselves. Would it be bloodless? What if an organized delegation of slaves appealed to the Northern States of America for help? Scout, Me bad, you are correct. I was thinking of the speech against the war Obama made against the war just prior to the vote. I suppose you could say a speech is a lot different than a vote, but it still stands in contrast to what other Democrats did as far as the vote went. YIS, Mike

Gold Winger, Because it wouldnt have been the United States of America any more. Well, I guess technically they would still be united states, but I guess it would also prove that the self evident truths of the Revolution that created the Union werent so self evident after all. Thanks for assisting with spell check. I noted the spelling I used in several sources I had reviewed. I concede that spelling is not one of my strong points, but its nice to know Im not alone. YIS, Mike

Fscouter, I hope youre not painting with too wide a brush. For many mothers, the reality is that they have to work. After many years of a single family income, my wife is looking into going back to work now that our youngest is in school for a full day. Her reason to go back isnt to pursue a career, but, quite simply, its harder to make ends meet and we can use the money! Our kids are still young. Would we like to keep things the way they are? Absolutely, but you cant pay bills and send kids to scout camp with your desires. Im sure self-centered, selfish moms are out there, but are they in the majority? YIS Mike

Gold Winger, He also went on to say if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it." Lincolns prime concern was for the union and his words show his willingness to subordinate his beliefs to the union. Despite political posturing, Lincoln personally was never a supporter of slavery. Who else is there? Abolitionists, slave owners, and their supporters. Big government? Do you mean he should have let the Southern States succeed from the Union and be content with being the President of the Northern States of America? YIS Mike

Scout, So you blame Lincoln for the Civil War? Slavery was the ticking time bomb that even the Founding Generation couldnt solve without risking the dissolution of the new union. Instead they chose to set it aside, despite the feelings of many that it was incompatible with the ideals of the Revolution, and leave it for a future generation, and ultimately Lincoln, to deal with. Maybe if the slave-owning states had taken a cue from Ben Franklin, who sponsored a petition for emancipation back in 1790, and acknowledged the inevitability of emancipation and worked towards a reasonable implementation of it, there would have been no Civil War and those lost lives and devastation. Even the autocratic Tsar of all the Russias freed the Russian serfs before Lincoln freed the slaves. Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus with the support of Congress, which is more than I can say of the machinations of the current regime. What has Obama done? Well, he voteded against Georges Iraq adventure, even when other Democrats fell for the WMD snowjob and our allies were calling for restraint. Thats reason enough for me. Somebody had made a comment that the Middle East is more stable then it was prior to 2000. Huh? Iraq is still unstable (thanks to Bush) and this has emboldened Iran and allowed them to become a player in the region. Hamas is held up in Gaza. Hezbollah has fought a brief war with Israel and tensions are still high. There is tension between Turkey and Kurdish radicals, causing Turkey to invade Iraqi territory. There is still no solution to the Palestinian situation. Things sure are looking good in the Middle East. McCains VP pick and her conservative credentials only says to me that we would be in for more of the same if they are elected. There was a time when I, a Democrat-leaning Independent, was attracted to McCain and his left-of-center style of Republicanism. No more. He has moved into the arms of Bush/Cheney and the Religious Right and his VP pick only serves to confirm this. YIS, Mike

BadenP and gwd-scouter, Funny, its the exact opposite with me. It seems the older I get the less conservative and more open-minded and tolerant (dare I say liberal), Ive become. Change does not frighten me, especially after the last eight years of incompetence, duplicity, waste, and arrogance here at home. In the world around us we have discrimination, tribal wars, religious wars, ethnic cleansing why? Last time I looked we were all human beings. Its been that way since time began I guess but I still cling to that hope that someday a group of leaders will sit down and meet and say: Enough of this cr-p! Lets get down to the business of seeing that people are fed, clothed, housed, and educated. Lets put our resources to work in rejuvenation of the planet, in medicine, or in just about anything that makes life better and folks happy!" When you have children, as I do, you want things to be better for them. If a lot of things stay the way they are today then thats not going to happen. Yup, idealism of a kid in the mind of a 52 year old. YIS, Mike

Scout, The worst civil rights record ever? I supposed the human enslavement that existed under previous presidents, Washington, Adams, and Jefferson included, doesnt count? Probably not in your mind since they were mere chattel at that time and not citizens. Interesting take on Lincoln by the way. Ill keep it in mind next time I visit the Lincoln Memorial. As to you Christian Western Civilization you seem to forget that the roots of that civilization are found in the pagan civilizations of Greece and Rome. In fact, perhaps the most important thing the Catholic Church did during the Dark and Middle Ages was to preserve the learning and traditions of these pagan civilizations to allow them to bloom again in the Renaissance. You do possess a lot of historical knowledge but one thing you appear to lack is a feel for the tides of history. Civilizations and governments have come and gone. Im sure the citizens in all these eras thought their state was the most powerful, the most advanced and some, like the Egyptians and the Romans, could truly make that boast given their time and place. I think the biggest mistake the U.S. can make is to rest on its past achievements and have the arrogance to say that it is perfect and cannot do better. That is simply not true. It is also arrogance not to acknowledge the mistakes made along the way and learn from them. I've read the original 1908 edition of Scouting for Boys. In it Baden-Powell recommends a display showing how John Nicholson, an Englishman helping to govern India, forced Mehtab Singh, a local chieftain, to remove his shoes in the Englishmans presence as a sign of being in the presence of a superior. Baden-Powell goes on to recommend that should a longer scene be needed the Nicholson character could go on to address the chiefs on the might of Britain, which, though a small country, is all powerful for the good of the world...". It is exactly a short 100 years later and look at the positions of Britain and India today. I think Mehtab Singh can keep his shoes on now! And yes, India is now a democracy, which was invented by the pagan Greeks. YIS, Mike

Herms, Yes, you got me, but you left out the part about the weapons of mass destruction hidden in the crates of tea. YIS, Mike

Scout, The founding generation was not in total agreement on the strength and role of the federal government. Federalists such as Washington, Adams, Hamilton, and Madison (until his arm got twisted back home) had a different view than that of Jefferson and his supporters. The interesting thing is that we are still debating this issue 232 years later without blowing apart. Well, the Union almost came apart once, but was saved with the help of a one-term Legislator from Illinois (I just couldnt resist throwing that in). YIS Mike

Ursus writes: always been proud of just wearing the only knot that mattered my Eagle So reluctantly I added a few more knots on my shirt, but still think theres still only one that really matters. Ursus, I salute your achievement and the effort you put in to get there. Unfortunately my own scouting career was brief and I got nowhere near Eagle. Now that Ive become re-engaged with scouting with my sons I have come to regret that I did not have the self-discipline or encouragement to stick with scouting and perhaps achieve Eagle. So there will never be any Eagle knot for me and Im sure there are many other scouters out there in the same boat. While you certainly have reason to be proud your comments strike me as a little elitist, which Im sure you didnt intend. In my mind any knot legitimately earned in the service of scouts and scouting really matters. Ive followed the discussion on tenure and all Ill say its unfortunate that the rules do not reflect many of the real world situations out there. I will serve dual positions in my Pack (Den Leader, Assistant Cubmaster, and perhaps Cubmaster). If I choose to pursue the Den Leader knots and then move on with my scout to the Troop (oldest son has already moved on) I may never have the opportunity to earn the Assistant Cubmaster or Cubmaster knots. Im not going to argue about the requirements they are what they are. Its not going to stop me from doing these very worthwhile, fulfilling jobs. Its just unfortunate, thats all. YIS Mike

Hi Knitwitmom, Ill be starting a Tiger den this year and something Im planning on doing, which could be considered a den doodle of sorts, is to make a den standard. While I was inspired by the standard my sons Webelos den (a.k.a. the Dragon Patrol) had, I always had the idea from the standards carried by the Roman legions that not only identified the legion but also was a rallying point and an object sacred to the legion. I had planned to use a stave with a short piece (1 foot?) lashed horizontally near the top. Id attach a canvas rectangle to the horizontal piece. On the front of the canvas there would be felt den and pack numbers and something symbolizing tigers. On the back of the canvas I though I might have the boys make individual tiger heads out of felt and personalize them with their names (first names only) and whatever else they would like. I thought of capping the top off with a plush tiger. Once created, the standard should be easy enough to be transported to den and pack meetings and other events. It could be used as a rallying point to bring the den together at events. I had envisioned the standard as an evolving den symbol. As the boys advance (Wolf, Bear, Webelos) the standard would advance with them. The rectangular canvas would be changed with each rank and the old canvas would be attached to the back kinda as a pennant. The boys would decorate each subsequent canvas with the pack and den numbers and whatever else they choose. I hadnt thought about using the standard to record advancement. I figured the bragging vests and tiger track beads would take care of that. You could adapt the standard by perhaps hanging leather lacings from the bottom of the canvas for the boys to string beads or hang whatever. The key would be to try to not load the standard down and keep it portable and easy enough for a boy to at least hold and stand with, if not actually carry. YIS Mike

All great ideas! For a recent Roundup we had the following: h Pinewood car display. A definite boy-magnet. Weve used this display at fundraisers and had been asked if the cars were for sale. h A collection of Snoopy-theme patches helping to illustrate the Cub Scout Trail. h Laptop with a looping slideshow of Pack pictures. h An artificial camp fire. This was one we got online and is very realistic (uses colored lights and a fan with a silk flame). This was another boy-magnet. h Homemade business cards with the Packs website address on them. h A real-live Cub Scout in full uniform. We also had the standard BSA brochures. I had previously made a poster that was well received at Roundups. I printed photos from Pack activities with applicable captions on them such as adventure, civic pride, blast off (rocket shoot) and just plain fun and arranged the photos on a display board with Baloo inviting boys to join the Pack and join the fun. This display got broken up but we still use some of the pictures in other displays. YIS Mike

I dont know, NJCubScouter. Given what kids are exposed to today in the media songs like Road Kill Stew and Jaws seem almost quaint. Even some of the sanitized Kids Bop songs give me pause what with some of the mature emotions expressed in the songs. The fact is that the boys love these songs so I wouldnt discount them entirely. My advice would be to run songs or skits youre unsure of by your Pack Committee and let them decide. Perhaps soliciting the opinions of a few parents as well would also be helpful. I had put together a skit that I realized was a little over the top but I knew the boys would love. I ran the skit by a mom, grandmother, and my Committee Chair (a mom as well) who all agreed that the boys would enjoy it. I did the skit, the boys did love it, and I got all kudos and no complaints from the parents. YIS Mike

Hi jmwalston, I was afraid someone would ask me that. Its not a sung to the tune of song. Sung in a Harry Bellafonte type of accent. The first three lines are done in a sing-songy tune. Where did he go is stated as a question. The he is drawn out, a little more each time (note the extra es). The went to sleep and decomposed is said very quickly. Now for the sad part is also stated in a sad, weepy manner, the more over the top the better. Dont forget the visuals. For example, hands up palm out at the ears for antlers for Da Moose, one hand up and one down for the Dead Moose. I hope this helps a little. Maybe somebody out there who knows the song can add something. YIS Mike

Hi Lady_Leigh67, We had some fun with this song. I found it on the web (I forget the site), but when I imagined Julie Andrews singing it it didnt flow so I tweaked it a little (my apologies and scout salute to the original author). Jaws (Tune: "Do-Re-Mi") JAWS: A mouth, a great big mouth. TEETH: The things that kinda crunch. US: His favorite juicy lunch. YUM: On us hes gonna munch! BLOOD: That turns the ocean red. CHOMP: That means the shark's been fed. GULP: Hes swallowing my head! That will bring us back to JAWS! JAWS! JAWS! JAWS! Another fun one is Da Moose, Da Moose. You use gestures to illustrate the actions (moose antlers, eating, jumping, swimming, floating face down, etc.) as you sing. Dont forget to get all emotional at the sad part. Another big scout salute to the original author. Da Moose, Da Moose! Jumping in the water. Eating his breakfast. Where did he go? Heeee went to sleep! Da Moose, Da Moose! Swimming in the water. Eating his dinner. Where did he go? Heeeeeeee went to sleep! And now for the sad part! Dead Moose, Dead Moose, Floating in the water! Not eating his desert! Where did he go? Heeeeeeeeeeeeeee decomposed! At Outdoor Leader Skills Training I suggested Da Moose, Da Moose to my Patrol for the song we had to do at campfire. It went over quite well Im happy to say. And yes, Road Kill Stew is a favorite too! YIS, Mike

Greetings! Recently, two boys in our Pack, a Tiger (my son) and Bear, attended a Chuckwagon Derby along with the other boys father and myself. They joined forces with another Bear from another pack in a neighboring town. The two towns are Braintree and Weymouth. As we pulled our wagon along we started to create a little yell: We are the Bra-Wey Braves, Brave and strong are we! Now we were stuck for a second verse so I volunteered: Were making this up as we go along, We are the Bra-Wey Braves! The boys got a kick out of it and sang these four lines as they went from station to station. They added tossing their hats in the air with a shout at the end of the song. That little song helped to build camaraderie between boys of different ages, dens and packs and helped them to do very well in the Derby despite the fact that there were only three of them. The boys still like to sing it when they see each other. YIS, Mike

Anarchist, Im surprised about the tax issues. Is your Charter Organization a non-profit? We had to deal with our local Board of Health because we were cooking hot dogs and serving pizza but they were very friendly and helpful. They normally charge a permit fee but waive it for non-profits so, as our Charter Organization is a church, no fee. We had to have sanitizing station, use gloves, and so forth but it really wasnt burdensome YIS, Mike

Hi Folks, ManyHats, What CA_Scouter said about pricing the drinks. We usually charge a dollar, even for a large bottle of water. Folks do like to contribute to the scouts. Of course you know best what your market will bear. Keep in mind that your profit margin goes down even if you can use the leftovers for Pack events. I didnt realize you were selling the Trails End popcorn. There is a Unit Money Earning Form you should file with your Council before the event to cover any other items you are selling. Heres the link: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34427.pdf One interesting thing I got from this Forum: if youre selling a brand-name item, like Pepsi, you need to request permission to have the scouts in uniform while selling. Apparently having uniformed scouts selling Brand X give the appearance that the BSA endorses Brand X. Our Council granted us permission to sell a local brand of chocolate in uniform. Im happy to say they realize a scout, especially a cub, in uniform is a great sales incentive. One other suggestion: ringpops. The kids are crazy for them and they sell like hotcakes, at least in this neck of the woods. YIS, Mike