DuncanHill

DSLChris71 re: "I commend you on your allegiance to scouting. As such I suspect you respect the process of the vote at the World Council, if not the outcome? " well it didn't come to a vote, after some very heavy arm twisting from the richest national Scouting organization directed at some organizations from very poor countries. I have to say, and I am very far from alone in saying this (as far as UK Scouters go anyway), that BSA's "moral" objection to LGBT members is very far from being either moral or Scouting. In saying that I want to make it very clear that I know that many in BSA - both individuals and at troop and council level, are profoundly uncomfortable with BSA policy (not least, see my link above about the gentleman from Ohio who has recently resigned). I have no idea what your comment about a cow mooing means! I'll put that down to being divided by a common language (This message has been edited by DuncanHill)

DLChris71 - "As to other scouting organizations, I don't concern myself with actions of organizations I'm not affiliated with." BSA is part of the WOSM (just like the other organizations I mentioned). BSA at the last World Conference blocked a motion calling (among other human rights issues) for equal rights for LGBT people. I'm a Scout, I'm part of the worldwide family of Scouts, so to me anything done in Scouting's name is my business.

Eagledad, no I was asking the poster whose name I put at the start of my post I was asking him because of his strong words about his version of morality, and the organisations I meant were ones like the Scout Association, Scouts Ireland, Swedish Scouting, Finnish Scouting, Scouts Australia and many others which welcome LGBT members both as young people and as leaders.

DLChris71, can I ask you straight out if you accept those national Scouting Organisations which don't exclude gay people as being just as much Scouts as BSA? I'd also point out that just about no-one in Britain would read "morally straight" (not a wording we've ever had in Scouting here) as meaning "sexually straight" - we'd understand it to mean something like "honest, trustworthy, keeps their word". I'd be interested to know if straight was even used to mean heterosexual at the time BSA added it to their Promise and Law.

Thanks Shortridge. I'm interested in the comments about Scouting's identity and the ban on gay people in BSA. Do some in BSA not regard British, Irish, European, Australian, Canadian Scouts as sharing your Scouting identity?

http://www.glaad.org/blog/boy-scouts-america-board-member-resigns-support-gay-ohio-mom It's not just gay people who Scouting in America loses because of the policy.

Well, both the Westminster government and the Scottish government have said they want to allow gay civil marriage, as I've mentioned above different religious groups have taken different positions. In the last few days there've been stories in the news about Catholic schools (state funded, but subject to control by the Catholic church) telling pupils to sign a petition against equal marriage. This is now being looked into by the government as it may be a breach of laws preventing schools pushing one side only of a political issue. There is an ongoing debate in British Scouting about the wording of the Promise and whether or not we should allow atheists to be leaders (I think there is another thread here about that). You're absolutely right about young people being able to spot hypocrisy, and not respecting those who are hypocrites.

RememberSchiff, well FLAGS Active Support Unit have rainbow neckers, and it's entirely possible that some of us will be there! I'm confident that the great majority of American Scouters at the Jamboree would be welcoming and see that we have more in common as Scouts than there is which divides us. There was a "Scouting Over the Rainbow" event at WSJ in Sweden http://www.worldscoutjamboree.se/2011/08/scouting-over-the-rainbow/ (This message has been edited by DuncanHill)

Thanks Moosetracker. There have been major changes in the UK in my lifetime (I'm 42 by the way). On the legal front we've had equalisation of the age of consent, prohibition of discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation in employment, the introduction of civil partnerships etc. There's also been a big change in social attitudes, and visibility. For an increasing number of people sexual orientation is seen as "no big deal" - certainly not as something to judge a person's character or abilities by. There is still some prejudice, and some (by no means all) religious bodies are very resistant to further change. The current debate over gay marriage here is a case in point. Catholic Church very anti, Anglicans (what you call Episcopalians) divided, but Liberal and Reform Judaism, the Quakers and the Unitarians in favour. The Scout Association adopted an equal opportunities policy several years ago (I think it was the early 90's) which prohibited discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation, both for leaders and young people. Most of the impetus for that came from within the movement. It's worth pointing out that TSA had never had a ban on gay people in the first place. They have also produced factsheets to support young people who are gay, adults who are gay, and also for adults who are come out to by a young person. These have been generally well-received, though I think your point about it being a generational thing has some merit. We all know a few "old timers" who find it hard to deal with change. From what I've read of how BSA and Chartering Organizations work, the COs have much more control over how Scouting operates on the ground than sponsoring bodies do in the UK (and it's also worth noting that many UK groups are not sponsored).

I'd already signed the petition before seeing this thread. Many in Scouting in the UK find BSA's position on LGBT leaders hard to understand, and I'll make no secret of the fact that I find it upsetting - both as a Scout and as a gay man. It is painful to me that I would not be welcomed as a fellow Scout in the USA. I think also it sends a bad message to young people - that BSA does not welcome their parents or even themselves.

Hi, just registered successfully after many failed attempts in the past. I'm a Scouter from Brighton in the UK, currently I'm a Unit Assistant in Explorers (our 14-18 section), a Training Advisor (that is, providing support to Leaders as they do their training for the Woodbadge), and I'm a member of the committee of FLAGS Active Support Unit which provides support on LGBT issues to adults in Scouting. I also help two new leaders at my Group's Beaver Colony (that's our 6 - 8 section). I'm a regular on the Escouts forum, and from time to time The Scouter Forum gets mentioned there so I thought it would be good to come and say hello. BTW, I had to use my aunt's ZIP code to register as it didn't seem to like British post codes!(This message has been edited by DuncanHill)