DugDirt

Grey Eagle, I never studied Latin,(public school education) but wish I had the chance. Everyone I met in college and career that (was forced) to study Latin said it gave them a better command of all languages in general (especially the romance languages). However, I did study Spanish for 3 years and I remember reading that foreign language students scored signifcantly higher on SAT Verbal skills - indicating better spoken and written language skills. Just like a boy who has mastered safe use of an axe can be relied upon to be more mature with other hazardous tools, have better hand/eye coordination and be quite a useful hand in many situations - in addition to the direct benefits of the skill. The logic that "around here we don't need em" is flawed because 'around here I don't ever need snowshoes, but I would not deflate the importance placed on them by an Alaskan - nor would I turn down an opportunity to learn to use them well - in the event I may be in that environment. "Be Prepared". Many authors have written about the importance of "tradition" in maintaining a strong healthy culture, and the negative impacts (to individuals and the group) of abandoning traditional skills. I see this in what is being discussed here. The Leave No Trace attitude has gone too far and is too widely applied. LNT has its proper place and reasons, but I sense that the basics of the outdoor ethic have been twisted into something dangerous to Scouting traditons and the well being of the boys. I see the trick played here and elsewhere by trying to make people think it's wrong to teach youngsters to do what we did as a boy, but there is nothing wrong with it. We (Scouting ) are strengthened by handing down traditions and old skills and of course a good adult leader should be open to new things (heck, we invented most all of them). I'm open if it serves a good purpose. Another related and increasingly studied problem is that today's boys are being taught to be users (not developers or "pioneers"), just like in some ways they are being taught to be watchers and not do-ers. Balance is needed with knowledge - stars, sun, comapss, map, and GPS are "all connected" and the "connection" can not be understood if one jumps to the GPS and claims success. Some people (maybe like Bob White) will have them watching TV screens with pictures of campfires and not building them while justifying it's safer for them and the environment. To sum it all up, most outdoorsmen and even non-outdoors types with sound judgement and common sense will consider the postion advocated by Bob and beaver absolute silliness. I came to this site a while back inquiring and researching on some Scout things and have come back as I cleaned out my mailbox. It seems that this would be a drain on my time. I know I won't convince you to think like me. Don't expect me to be like you. My son is not in Boy Scouts yet, but when he gets in there I will be sure to help teach the skills I learned as a Scout and use now when we pursue various outdoor activities (mostly camping and hunting). After perusing this and other recent threads I am likely a minority, and responding to some of the silly (might I say left leaning) stuff espoused here can take a lot of time. So thank you for reading this. Sorry it is so long. I wish I could see you all, because as I hop around and read thsi stuf I am developing my own pictures of you. I wonder how close I am. Dug

Bob White.. Just so I understand, exactly why do you think skills with an axe, (hatchet, boy's axe, or camp axe) are not important to Scouts? Just so you know where I am coming from, I consider the tool and skill with it an important part of a Scout's - and my personal- field gear. I have several, but love my Wetterlings mini-hatchet and for larger work (but not too big to pack) the Snow & Neally camp axe. I always carry one of various models small saw. I suppose some laser device will make all blades obsolete someday - but that would just not be any fun now would it? The first skill (with hand axe) I learned as a WEBELOS was making tent pegs out of inch thick sticks (yes we killed trees if we coudl not find good deadfall) It was a skill and memory that never left my head or hands - or heart. Let's just say it was about WAY MORE than learning to make tent pegs with 5 chops. Great thing was I did not know what it meant to me at the time. That's the magic about a lot of Scouting. So I admit I am biased Again though, why no axe?

Additional neat story I heard at work some time ago and had to search the web to find it.. from http://mark-ray.com/samples/astronaut.doc It's about Astronaut Mike Fossum and "knots".. There's a multitude of angles the full story could be taken in this forum (read it all at the link), but the part below applies well here for the "knot-haters." - just a little jab. Quote "As Fossums crew prepared for STS-121, shuttle engineers became concerned about the Velcro straps that would hold down a piece of equipment in the payload bay as Endeavor returned to earth. When someone suggested tying a knot, Fossum said the clove hitch is what the Boy Scouts would use. In typical NASA fashion, the engineers convened meetings, researched knots, conducted pull testing and materials testing, and finally settled on the appropriate knot the clove hitch."

I think a common problem in this 'classic' discussion is that many of the commentators here are falling into an "obsolescence trap". "We don't need to learn that because it's an obsolete method".. The real point of most skills to be learned anywhere (but in Scouting esp.) is that they instill much more than the ability to produce the end product. "The destination is not as important as the journey" - as the old saying goes. Solving problem A at the most fundamental level (least tech) produces the natural insight and the confidence to apply methods B and C (likely using more tech). Practicing all the methods helps build the skills needed to apply the old skills and methods to new problems and devlop new methods. I can quickly teach a "map and compass" trained person to use a GPS and rely on him to 'get me there' reliably in a crtical situation, but I would be less likely to give a GPS-only 'gadgeteer' a critical navigation task.

Most of the time..It's not money (or lack of it) that makes camps fall down and local programs go bad. It's lack of membership and lack of good experienced and knowledgeable leadership that causes those things. I've noticed that those things also happen when an organization tends to try to be "everything to everyone" instead of staying focused on a core set of values and practices. It's called "losing your mission". Look at our schools - or our government. Who says that the best funded is always "the best"? Not by a long shot. As far as "keeping my mouth shut", hmmmm. No I won't. Parents and especially Scouters are turned off by the FOS (the way it is currently done) and it probably adds to the list of reasons why we don't want to be in Scouts anymore. It's like telemarketing, only in your face and in front of your kids. FOS needs to be working at the community level and not homing in on it's membership. Sure - I'd pay $20 versus $11 for my son's membership and so would many others.. Many are usually shocked about how cheap membership is - and how expensive the uniforms are. Balance please. In USO, does the USO go and harass(oops I mean solicit) "the Troops" for donations? Imagine if they did that? No, the USO reaches out to the Public and commerical enterprises and I suspect that the largest contributions come from Veterans. Hey there's an idea.. Reach out to past generations of Scouts. Then I hear you - "No it's easier ( there's that easy option again) to corner the current Scouters and Scout families and play high pressure sales games in front of their kids." ("Easy" does not make it "right".)

In response to the "awsome one", I think it would be accurate in many cases to say that many of us are NOT in fact "Friends Of Scouting " - but WE ARE SCOUTING! It's a shame that "they" hang something like FOS $$ over the heads of Pro's - and not more meaningful factors. How much from our unit?? ~$600 and most of that from just a few parents that are LOADED and will write it off their business accounts. I am ashamed to have thsi presentation every year.

A different direction ! -- As much as I support and love Scouting, I am tired of FOS at our Pack meeting every year. We always have a good presenter and presentation and our little Pack of 25 boys in a mostly middle class area does pretty well in contributions, BUT I very much dislike that they come to the units to ask for $$$... These same people that are being guilted into pledging $$ are saying that they don't buy scout pants because they cost so much.(I don't think that's the real reason however).. Why doesn't BSA go to civic goups and do a pitch and the civic groups can pledge the $ and get the recognition and satisfaction of being a "FOS".. Go instead to the following meetings in each community: Rotary, Kiwanis, Elks, Lions, Jaycees, Soroptimists, Knights of Columbus, Shriners, Masons, Junior Woman's Clubs, Moose, etc AND then go to all the local businesses and pitch the FOS thing .. The contbutors can get a special sign/sticker for their door /window and maybe get recognition in a Council flyer sent to all Scouting families showing who supports Scouting.. Is this a bad idea? It will take more effort of course than guilting a trapped crowd into writing a pledge after they spend lots of $ and time (the Leaders) on Scouting already. It woudl have the extra benefit of really getting teh community groups and businesses aware of and helping Scouting.. I would rather have an FOSP (Friends of Scout Pants) presentation next year and get every one to give $30 (our average pledge) and we'll use it to buy their son Scout pants.

Thanks to you good folks for your help. I really appreciate Beav's comments about a steady breeze of change -as opposed to a hurricane - but I am worried I will not be patient enough to change the current leaders and troop. If it was all from scratch, that would be easier (in my mind). Which leads to the new troop comment offerred by someone. Thanks for the caution about it being just like my days as a Boy Scout. Though I understand and am aware of this dynamic, I don't think it would be too bad for me to try and bring some tradition in the door, and make it at least a little closer. 100 years is approaching as I see from the website. My son and I already camp, hunt, fish, bike, and hike together. I have brewed over this a long time, and Please don't take offense, but I honestly have thought to just forget the idea of Scouts for him and keep up our own little in-the-family version - maybe invite a friend or two once in a while.. I know that would not be the same as the real thing, but neither is the local troop. We could add our own service projects, history trips, home-grown summer camp etc. Still not the Patrol method though. I talked to the current adult leaders and have gotten to know them. I have that feeling that they are pretty firm in their ways and see what they do as a great thing.. And maybe it is in it's own way. But it's clearly not Boy Scouts to me in my way of looking. Oh yeah, here's a weird thing. Almost all of the parents come to and STAY at the troop meetings. That NEVER happened when I was in Scouts (Here I go again). I would have quit scouts in a heartbeat if my or other boy's Moms hovered over our patrol corner and "helped" us. I hardly liked it when an Asst Scoutmaster hovered too long.. I recall the ones that hovered and the ones that taught us and "let us be".. You could guess which one is more fondly regarded in my memory. I just looked up and realized this post is getting long. I apologize. I have vented, but it felt good because my wife has "no idea", and my comments to her (like the above) go whoosh - over her head. She says basically just drop him off/ help out where needed (everywhere in my opinion) and don't worry about it. Thought- There needs to be an Old (ouch) Scout's Counseling Group for guys like me.. Maybe I found it. HAha. I feel better after sharing with you and your replies . Thanks again.

I have a son who is about to go into the only local troop from WEBELOS. I am an ex-scout and loved my experiences, and I want him to have a great boy scout experience too. The problem is I am not liking what I see in the local troop (our only option).. It's kind of smallish, but that's not the problem. The parents mostly go on all the campouts, attend the scout meetings and stay. The adult leaders (scoutmaster and his asst) are really the Patrol Leaders in teh few times I have seen them - even though there are some boys appointed or elected as such. They carry everything in trailers and trucks (instead of backpacking) and there is no sense of Patrol spirit and competition that I knew as a scout. They go on some cool trips (florida sea base and summer camp out of council in the mountains) but it all seems that the adults are making this happen. They have even been taking Cub Scouts (brothers of Boy Scouts) on camping trips (with Mom and Dad too).. They went on a canoe trip to an island on open water in December!! and it all sounded silly too me as I heard the trip plan evolve. I have been on many canoe trips in various conditions and most boys were too young in my way of thinking - and they eventually ended up taking motorboats instead.. They work on merit badges at meetings -and its not "awful".. But, it's just not what I expect - nor does it line up with what I think Scouting is supposed to be. Any ideas from you experienced Scouters? Should I join as a leader and try to change it? I know enough about these types of situations to know what happens to the guy who comes in and tries to change everything.. Would like your help..