duckfoot

Sounds like a new camp is in order. We don't go to our council camp because of the program, the one we go to is first rate and we tell our council guys that so they know. Step up your program and we'll be back. Had plenty of partials handed out this year, we don't call those failures, we just tell our guys they have some post-requisites to finish up.

DHS needs to release the video, that would answer the question of whether a gun was drawn or not. We still haven't heard a first hand account of this. Mr. Fox's posting there only gives one sentence to the gun pulling incident, you'd think there would be more but he didn't witness it. Also, Mr. Fox invokes Godwin's Law...loses all credibility. Thread's over...go home people

As far as justification goes, Calico has the right of it. These officers are trained to react in these situations and it obviously was threatening from their perspective. They have the right to protect their health and safety and this situation escalated to that point. The article does not say anything of the ages of these scouts, but I'm going to bet they are the older ones, going on a three week trip like that. It's a big difference between a ten year old and a seventeen year old. You just can't throw around the word boy like that.

Or just keep doing what your doing with the official shirt. What are they going to do? Dock your pay? Fire you? That'd take some work on their part. Irritating the council guys is a fun part of the scoutmaster's job.

Four van loads of scouts? I bet the agents were a little out numbered, then you have one of them snapping pictures of the agent, not following orders? How hard is it to just sit there and get through the checkpoint? Not very, yet this troop couldn't seem to do that. Lack of scout leadership on the part of the adults to prepare the boys for this situation. As you guys Monday morning quarterback this, put yourselves in the shoes of those agents.

That article is really short on facts from both sides. There had to be something more going on for that officer to draw his weapon.

And building benches in a city park hits it right on the mark?

Should be the last question on the Scoutmaster test...can you read this? Yes? You're in!! No? You're in!!

That is every Scouter's face when dealing with District/Council/National...Should be our mascot.

I had one, then none, then one again, then magically two...good stuff

No worries...

Because I did not know what their current standing on this issue was and I was curious. I then looked it up and found out. No impressions were had beforehand, I assure you.

@skeptic I apologize for not seeing this in other places, I did look but with the current state of the forum search... I would have thought someone else would have mentioned this first if it was widely known...it was not to me, so today I was one of the lucky 10,000 and thought to pass that on to others. I quote my orginal post: 'How do we go about integrating them into the Oath and Law without taking away from what's there already?' Nowhere did I ever say anything about taking out what already is. I just posited the idea that atheists are accepted and how should we go about integrating them. Bibles were brought out and thumped and said this can never happen because the very foundation of scouting that was envisioned by Baden-Powell belongs to our lord god! Which wasn't a very helpful response. And it's devolved into the thread it is now.

Good news everyone! Someone mentioned Baden-Powell (as people are wont to do on these forums) and I was inspired to look up what our friends across the pond are up to in relation to this question. I have found that this is not just a thought experiment anymore. They are doing it...Right Now!!! I haven't heard of the total collapse of European Scouting so it must be working. Good for them.

You are wrong. Scouting is a Youth program. Take away the Youth and you have no Boy Scouts of America. Every meeting would be like a roundtable, nobody would stick around for long for that. That's a spurious argument. Everyone starts out as an atheist. You learned to be a Christian. You decided that was better. Good for you. How did you learn that? Your parents. Which is where everyone first learns their morality and values, be they good or bad. Does it mean you can't learn others? No. That's bull. God is not the root of all morality. People are. Atheists have values. Atheists have morals. Atheists are ethical. They are more than capable of teaching those concepts as you are. Right is right, wrong is wrong. God has nothing to do with that. But I digress...I wonder why you bothered to post in this thread anyway? It was just a thought experiment to see if we could bridge that gap without taking away from what is there while adding. Pointless to be sure, but I am disappointed that this has devolved into the same tired arguments, this is why we can't have nice things.

Scouting is ALL about the children, never forget that. They are why we do what we do. They are why you defend the status quo and why others seek to change it. Tell me how an atheist is less equipped to give moral and ethical guidance? How are they less able to give instruction in right and wrong. Do atheist renounce the Golden Rule when they take up their beliefs? The mission of the BSA is a multi legged stool that reverence is but one. Modify it and the stool does not fall. But the sword cuts both ways. An atheist scoutmaster should lead a Sunday service for his scouts that want to. No where did I say anything about not allowing the spiritual aspect of the program. I think you mistake allowing atheists in the program for keeping religion out of the program. That would be just as bad. There's room for both. It wouldn't diminish scouting in the least. It would strengthen it.

At the core of this issue is that we are talking about children, who have zero idea of a) what god is, B) what a god is, or c) what no belief in god is. They are still learning to be themselves, learning about the world. Shit, at 41 I'm still learning who I am and find new things everyday. We tell them they have to believe in god to be a scout when they do not really have an inkling of an idea of what that is. Granted, they probably have no idea of the rest of the oath and law and our job as Scoutmasters is to foster those ideals and I'm ok with that. Being honest is rather cut and dried but I'm not a priest, rabbi, grand poobah, or any of their ilk, just as soon leave that stuff to the ones who are. I can show a boy how to splint an arm or tie a sheepshank, I can't show a boy what to believe in nor do I want to, that's for him to figure out. I do know you can be Reverent and not believe in god with a capital g or little baby Jesus. You can believe in a whole host of other things and still be reverent. But if you believe there is no god, then you can't be a scout, which I believe is wrong. I'm not saying that we can't not have worship service on Sunday at camp. I'm not saying we shouldn't give the big guy upstairs his due. I'm just saying that not everyone believes and that's ok. If you don't, come be a scout anyway. It's a lot of fun.

How do we go about integrating them into the Oath and Law without taking away from what's there already?

Troops never die...they just wait patiently for new scouts to come along...

I have not gotten it...yet. But I will, even with that caveat. Really liked the last one.

Well, let's see... 1. He also told me that he would be all over me if he wasn't married or I wasn't married 2. told me that he would only kiss me when I was ready 3. Asking about affairs and such... Probably more than that too. What more would you want to hear about to satisfy you that she's been harassed? Wonder if he feels bad when he says the oath? Sounds like a new SM is in order...

No, not interesting at all. Just a sad story. Condolences to that family.

Yes, this is a tough situation. No, you are not ever going to fix this troop committee. Staying will only lead to frustration for you and you don't need that. Bottom line: take you and your boy to another troop or get support, a new CO, and start a new troop.

This. Exactly. As long as it is not too obnoxious or loud, stay up all you. Plus it's more fun to wake them up when you know they've been up later...