dsteele

The two previous posts give you advice that I would echo. Start fresh with the checking account and don't go after mysterious missing equipment. The only thing I would add is not to blame your District Executive. The money missing and missing equipment do not belong to the council. That will happen only if the unit dies. In the meantime it's an issue between the unit and the chartered partner -- which you've mentioned is not in existence at the moment. Still, it's a unit issue. I'm guessing that the DE either doesn't know what to tell you or is trying to find out. I'm asking you to realize that the DE isn't the be-all-and-end-all problem solver. They're a good resource and you did well to consult with him/her, but we (we being professional scouters) don't always have the silver bullet solutions to all problems. Good luck. And welcome to the forums! DS

I'm on vacation, so I don't have the chapter and verse in front of me. You'll just have to (actually you don't have to) take my word as a 15 year Scouting professional. Let me go on record as saying that I do not like and strive to avoid, chartering units to groups of concerned citizens. That's what the BSA calls what CubsRgr8 called "Friends Of organizations." I've only done it a few times in the many units I've helped to start. I reserve this option only for cases when no formal organization can be found that is acceptable to all concerned. The reason I odn't like this type of charter partner is that it tends to be the parents of the current scouters who form the group of concerned citizens and when one is lost, so is the other. There's no one to go to in an attempt to recharter the unit. Yes, in 1988, or 1987, the national organization of the Parents and Teachers of America (PTA) passed a resultion suggesting -- only suggesting -- that local chapters not charter units. They feared that they could be sued if a scout leader they approved turned out to be bad. It's true that they can be sued, but that's why the BSA provides liability insurance. Many, but not all local PTA's dropped their charter and some units chose to, in effect, charter themselves. The advice to find another charter partner is solid advice and I echo it. I also agree with the advice that says to communicate with your unit commissioner. They, as well as your Unit Serving Executive can help you find another charter partner. In a pinch, just have your unit elect another CR for your Friends of XYZ public school, have that new CR fill out an adult application and sign off on the charter. Here I'm speaking of reality and not ideal. In response to eisely, I have had (to my memory) two units charted to businesses. One was a bakery in Michigan and the other was to a flower shop in Illinois. The bakery was a strong charter partner with active participation with their unit. The flower shop was a dud. I prefer to deal with churches and civic groups such as the American Legion, VFW, or service clubs. I really don't see Friends Of or groups of concerned citizens as a trend . . . but I've only been employed by 3 councils and I'm sure I haven't seen everything under the sun. Every time I think I'm close, something new pops up. DS

I'm on vacation, so I don't have the memo in front of me. I do remember that the old books are grandfathered for about a year -- longer than the duration of that particular program year for Cub Scouts. So there is no ethics involved in selling off the inventory of old books. The ethics problem comes in if a council just decides to throw the old books in the dumpster. Local councils purchase from national everything they sell in their scout shops. The money for such purchases comes from your FOS dollars, United Way contributions, popcorn sales, etc. It's not like councils cut the cover off and send them back to national for reimbursement -- I wish that were the case. No, they have to eat the unsold inventory. The money lost by throwing away old books would be better spent on program for the kids. I see no harm, since the old books will still be good for an entire program year, in buying or selling them. DS

I have a couple of those chairs. One is a recliner and would be a poor choice because it would be too dificult to take notes and the cup holders don't work. The other is a regular chair and would have been an excellent choice. I never thought of it. It's a good sign that you have such a thoughtful staff. Have fun. DS

Bob did a good job of answering the insurance question. As to whether you're covered under liability insurance (the stuff comes into play when there's a law suit,) let me answer a question with a question. The question is -- Do you want to give BSA attorneys an excuse to not represent you? As to the OA chapter being required to have the same name as the district. There is no such requirement, unless the Scout Executive makes it one. The OA lodge exists at the pleasure of the Scout Executive. He is the Surpreme Chief of the Fire. When I was staff advisor, I once asked my Scout Executive if he wanted me to have the Lodge Chief present the lodge's charter to the executive board. He said, "Don't do that. It's the only power I've got!" He was kidding. Instead, we had the lodge chief present the charter to the Scout Executive in a nice ceremony at our spring fellowship. DS

Joni -- please forgive us for being such cads. What I should have said and am saying now is . . . Congratulations on the miracle of conception and God Bless you and your (as yet) unborn child. When it comes to being in full uniform in comparison to giving birth as comfortably as is humanly possible, I would hope that correct uniforming loses. It sounds like you're dedicated to complete uniforming when you're not pregnant. You live the example as best you can. Take the months off until you return to having only one heart inside you and don't worry about the time period that you have (in this day and age) however many more than that that you have! Signed, DS A member of a childless couple (as it turns out, happily so.)

KoreaScouter, I think you are fortunate to know such a strong young man. I'm as bowled over as everyone else who has responded. Now I'm thinking about the answer to your question. Yes, I do think that "to help other people at all times" means that you may have to make the ultimate sacrifice. In the example you provided, the scout thought so too and he did it bravely -- in keeping with the Scout Law. This touches on a theme that's a common thread of several stories in the history of literature. The story of the man who went to jail (with the death sentence hanging over his brother's head) for his brother. Would the brother return? No one knew. He did return. Sorry. I digress. I salute the Scout and his parents and leaders for instilling such values. He is an excellent example of what we're trying to do.

Tim: I've been to several camp schools and directed one section of one. The list provided by your region covers most of what you will need. There's only one "secret" ingrediant that's more than good to include. A cushion. Even though the COPE syllabus one of the most physical -- you'll spend most of your time on the course, literally (pardon the pun) learning the ropes. However, you'll also spend plenty of time sitting and going over paperwork and sitting through lecture. Go to K-Mart or Target or Walmart and spend the small amount of money on one of those tie-on cushions. When you get to camp school I think you'll find that there are metal folding chairs in the training room. You'll be happy you tied that cushion on that chair before you spend hours sitting on it. Just make sure your classmates don't fight over it. Have a great time. DS

You can be sad for the deceased professional and you can be sad for the widow. But don't be sad that she's selling the Scout stuff. I think you'd be surprised at the number of professionals who save scout stuff specifically for sale after they retire. If the old pro's wife can make a few bucks selling stuff that probably has no sentimental value to her, I think we should salute the guy's foresite and display those posters with pride. Not that I'm complaining about our retirement package -- I think National does a fantastic job of caring for those professionals who stick around long enough to retire. I'm disturbed, however, by the number of professionals I know who have died within 18 months of their retirement. My (almost, but not quite serious) theory is that we can't handle the lack of stress brought about by retirement and simply drop dead. My other theory of longevity is that we're all born with a finite number of heartbeats. That's why shoveling the driveway and mowing the lawn are bad for you -- you use 'em up too fast! Have a nice Sunday. Don't get too unstressed and don't mow the lawn. I want to hear more from you in the future. DS

It's too bad the right to be wrong is exercised so frequently! Hee-hee. DS

My apologies, folks. I didn't mean to open pandora's box on an old debate. Bob, don't look anything up unless you feel compelled to. I'm certainly not going to ask you to. The only congressional stuff included with the latest issue of the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America opened with the congressional charter and the report I referred to. Frankly, I have no interest in anything congress has passed referring to the use of camos in our uniforms. The only uniform guide I will accept is the Insignia Guide -- latest edition. That's the interpretation of whatever rules, etc. by wiser heads than mine. Camos, or BDU's are not uniform parts. In most of the posts I've read, there is no question. However, I haven't seen anything that says we can't wear them period. And camo doesn't mean military. I don't know about other states, but hunters in Michigan wear "camo safety orange." It wouldn't do you a bit of good against any human foe and certainly isn't military. As to navy being military -- not about to get into that one. I can't even take credit for starting the argument -- I think that one began betwen John Adams and George Washington. DS PS -- what I was looking for in this thread was questions people had about BSA policies and things they'd been taught that didn't make sense to them. Perhaps we could direct this that way? Then we'd be helping to clarify, with sources, confusion amongst BSA people rather than jumping on each other over trivialities. DS

My apologies to Tim. It will stil be the best training he's ever attended. What I neglected to mention was that I took the course in the late '80's when C.O.P.E. was new (it was still called Challenging Outdoor Physical Experience) and this was the only week long national camp school syllabus that I know of that was condensed (same material, less time) into a Friday, Saturday, Sunday! Ouch! DS

I fell for the myth that our congressional charter doesn't allow us to wear camo as part of the uniform so we don't imitate the military. It kind of made sense to me, but then I thought about our uniform. so I read the congressional charter of the Boy Scouts of America. It wasn't there. But wait! What's this next page? It's called CONGRESSIONAL REPORT IN SUPPORT OF ACT TO INCORPORATE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA. The only reference to BSA and military is in paragraph three, first sentence. And I quote -- "The Boy Scout movement is not one seeking to promote a juvenile military system (we must have had critics even in 1916 -- editorial,) but is intended to supplement and enlarge established modern educational facilities in activities in the great and healthful out of doors where may be the better developed physical strength and endurance, self-reliance, and the powers of initiative and resourcefulness, all for the purpose of establishing through the boys of today the very highest type of American citizenship." I know it's a long sentence. I just typed it. How someone got "you can't wear camo" out of it, I just don't know. Any other myths out there? DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

I thought I'd let the above tease people for a couple of days, but reconsidered. I didn't want to start a stampede of people demanding copies of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America. Most of it does not apply to units, but some of it does. Reference to finance and property of a unit is found in Article X!, Section 1, Clause 2, item (b) . . . and I'll quote: "ARTICLE XI. BUSINESS, FINANCE, PROPERTIES, CONTRACTS, REGISTRATION Section 1. Local Council and Unit Finance Clause 2. Disposition of Funds Upon Termination of a Local Council or Unit. (b) Unit Obligations. In the event of the dissolution of a unit or the revocation or lapse of its charter, the unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations and shall turn over the surplus, if any, to the local council, if there is one, or if there is no local council, dispose of the same in accordance with the direction of the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America. In the case of a chartered organization, any funds or equipment which may have been secured as property of the unit shall be held in trust by the chartering organization OR the chartered local council, AS MAY BE AGREED UPON, pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America." Period. End of report. End of debate? I doubt it. Here's how I interpret this policy -- if the troop dies, the council gets the money. The Chartered Partner gets the equipment and property, if it wants it, if not, the council can do with it as it sees fit. You'll notice that the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America sounds like leagaleese. They are written mostly for the governance of the national organization of the BSA and establishment of councils. Some people think they're literally a list of what you can and can't do as unit leaders of the BSA. Not realy. Most Scouters never need them. In 15 years in the profession, I've referred to them maybe 3 times -- and this was one. They are available only through your own local council -- so the folks who want to be able to quote "chapter and verse" which for the most part isn't found in the Rules, are looking for the wrong document. There isn't 1 there are several. My suggestion to pamalam is to enjoy the new trailer. Get it insured, realize that your chartered partner is "in the will" for the trailer, and keep on serving Scouts. Have a nice weekend. DS

The best training I ever called was one the BSA was piloting called the Coaching Skills Conference. It changed my whole management style for the better. The course was purchased and for a while became Field Director Training. Now it's part of the BSA's professional management level III. The best program course I ever took was National Camp School for C.O.P.E. Directors. I was sore as all get-out when it was done, but I felt fully comfortable with being a C.O.P.E. Director. DS

Joni4Ta, you are hearby sentenced to attend as many Roundtables as you desire. I suggest at least one, preferrably all. Okay, so I can't sentence you, but I still stand by my advice. Please accept my apologies if you're a regular roundtable attendee. I suggest this because you will meet people, some with lots of knots and experience. You'll also find your District Executive and probably your district commissioner lurking about. Have a chat with them. They're probably well aware of the problems in your pack and would love to have a trained person to help get them in to explain the way things ought to work. If nothing else, you'll be noticed by district level folks who may involve you in other, less aggravating scouting experiences. Check your council's newsletter for roundtable dates and locations. They're open to all Scouters, so don't let anyone tell you that you can't go or that you're not the pack representative. DS

Hey Scrapper, welcome to the forums! If the other den is in the same pack and has young siblings attending, why not request to be in that den? I assume your son has friends in his den and may not want to move, but kids that age tend to make friends quickly and the move shouldn't be too disruptive. They're probably doing something different with the siblings and could add your son. It wouldn't effect your son's status in the program in any official way. I'm not about to dive into this male/female issue that just popped up. DS

The mighty mage has returned with the final answer. When requested, he set the top of his staff alight and descended into the catacombs in search of an answer. And danged if he didn't find one! Are you sure you want me to end this debate? I'm about to start one on camoflauge, so maybe it's a tradeoff. I thought it might be as easy as reading the disposiiton of unit funds and property section of a red sheet. Actually, a red sheet is an Unreregistered Unit Report No 26-403K. It said Refer to Article XI, Section 1, Clause 2 of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America. Now all you have to do is find them. They're in the catacombs! DS

I haven't seen them. I wouldn't advise waiting. Sometimes it takes longer than national thinks it will take to get books printed and distributed. Councils with a lot of them in stock won't be in a real hurry to eat the cost of the old books. DS

Take a look at the requirements for the Ranger Award. It's not available for Boy Scouts. Indeed, many of the elective requirements aren't allowed to Boy Scouts at all. Cool stuff! DS

I was just sitting here minding my own business and nldscout calls me out. Okay, I'll see what I can find. It's going to take some digging so it might be a little while. DS

The avoidance of e-bay sounds like good advice and I'll take it. The accomplishment looks good on my resume. I did it for the good of kids, not for the hardware. However, packsaddle, you're exactly right. That's why they're not for sale. DS

Sctmom: Sounds like you're reading from the memo from national I have on my desk! The rumor is true. DS PS -- I don't believe anything until it crosses my desk in a memo from the national office. No offense to this forum (which, unlike others, is usually correct. I just prefer to wait until I officialy receive the proper documentation.) In this case it has been received. DS

Hi folks: I know this thread is reserved only for trainers, but I feel like I qualify. I've been the advisor to the council training committee for years. In other words, I've forgotten how long I've been staff advisor and sometimes get my syllabi confused. Have you looked into the I.Y.O.S. offered up by Trail's End popcorn. It stands for Ideal Year of Scouting. Now, before anyone gets started, I've worked for three councils and one of them did a different popcorn company than Trail's End. I'm not a T.E. loyalist by any means. However, the ideal year of scouting stuff, while offered by people interested in commerce only, is quite good. A unit can go on-line and make up their own passwords. The web site will allow them to input their entire year's unit program, costs, roster, etc. It will then figure out how much per Scout needs to be sold in popcorn to pay for that year. It will even manage Scout accounts on-line. It's worth checking out. Yes, it pushes the unit toward popcorn sales, but if it is in keeping with the BSA budget plan (which enough people don't know about, it's worth doing. At least that's my philosophy.) I think it's worth checking out. In my council, I've offered to go to the home of any unit who is interested and help them set up the program. No one has taken me up on it, but I'm going to push it again this year. I'm also going to train my D.E's to do it.) It's worth a shot. DS

As a kid and 7 years of camp staff, we went to Camp Rota-Kiwan in Kalamazoo, MI every year. How could we not? Our Scoutmaster was Mr. B. who was their nature director for over 40 years. It was near town and as a staff member and OA rep, I used to ride my bike home when I didn't like lunch. What a world! As an assistant camp director (D.E.) I served the Lake Huron Area Council's Camp Rotary in 1989 and Paul Bunyan Scout Reservation in 1990-1992. I met my wife who was also on staff at PBSR in 1990. We're still together. Now I'm assistant scout executive and oversee Camp R.S. Lyle in northern Wisconsin. We're currently working on our 40th reunion. Any past staff members out there? I'd love to hear from you. And three cheers for Mr. B! DS