dsteele

Nicely answered, Bob. Speaking specifically about my current council as it relates to our summer camp paying for our overhead for owning the property year round, I'll answer it specifically. We own two properties. One is our Boy Scout Summer camp. It's very north in Wisconsin and it is used basically only for 5 weeks of camp. The rest of the time it just costs us money. We budget for summer camp to help defray the loss, but unless we charged about $500 per kid per week at summer cmap, it's a loss. Our second property is within an hour of the council service center and about an hour from Chicago suburbs. It generates income for us year-round, enough so that we're able to lose money on the other property. It tends to balance out. Sometimes we make a little, sometimes we lose a little. Depends on how much maintanence has to go into either property. I'd like to address Mark and his desire to support his council by attending his council's camp. I happen to know his Scout Executive, but that doesn't really change my answer. I'd say the same whether I knew him or not. I'm sure he's well aware that your troop hasn't been at their camp for three years. It's pretty standard for a Scout Executive to ask where, if not our camp, are they going to summer camp? Yes, they are concerned about finance, but give them a little credit. They're also concerned that the Scouts get a long term camping experience, whether it be here, there, or other. Here's my suggestion -- call your Scout Executive and ask for an appointment with him and whichever council Vice President is in charge of camping operations for the council. Explain that you would like to see your troop return to your council's camp and that you would like to discuss with them what it would take for that to happen. Take your committee chairman, or, if you can schedule it in such a way and it wouldn't intimidate the heck out of him, your Senior Patrol leader or an older boy who was there when you had the bad experience. In a calm manner, explain what drove you away from the program, what attracts you and keeps you going back to the other camp, and see where it goes. Perhaps a lot of the things that bothered your troop have been fixed. Perhaps some of them can't be fixed for various reasons, but there will be good things that come from the meeting as long as the attitude is that "we're in this together and let's work to fix it." The other thing I suggest you do, if it's truly your older boys convincing the younger boys that they don't want to go to your council's camp, is to talk with the camp director. Take a bunch of both groups of Scouts to your council's camp so they can "inspect" it's operation. Ask the camp director to have a staff member escort them around the camp, let them talk to staff and scouts, etc. Offer to pay for the meals and let the boys make their decisions based on their own experience and not an oral representation of a bad experience darkened by faded memory over time from an older scout. Then see what happens. I applaud your desire to try to fix the problem, rather than just walking away from it. Bob White -- nice work at the Chamber event. As we have seen, United Way, unlike the Boy Scouts of America, bows to public pressure. That's as far as I'm prepared to go down that particular path to agency bashing . . . (Not you, Bob. I was talking about killing the temptation I just felt to bash a hand that, although it's feeding us less, is still feeding us in many cases.) I know I've left a few loose "worms" from the proverbial can lying around, but I can't find them at the moment. I'll be back. DS

There are a lot of good resources mentioned so far, but no one has brought up my favorite. It's my theory that this wonderful tool is the most neglected tool in Cub Scouting and is the most useful to a Den Leader. I'm referring to Program Helps. Program helps provide the agenda for every den meeting -- including the game to play, craft to make, pre-opening activity, etc. Even if you don't use them right "out of the book" (and nothing says you have to,) they can still save you a lot of work in your planning. They are available as a single publication, or (if you're registered as a Den Leader) you'll automatically receive them a couple months at a time in your Scouting magazine. If you buy the complete publication, you'll pay about $4.00. Hope it helps. Have fun with your new Den. DS

Excellent advice. DS

Maybe I'm breaking the mold, but although I've said that the 100% cotton uniform is best suited for the outdoors, let me also tell you that I don't hesitate to wear the "dressier" poly-woll uniform outdoors. Or even when I have to go camping. In another thread, I indicated that I prefer the Marriott, but if you think I can't handle the camping, lashing, knot-tying, get your hands dirty stuff, you've got the wrong impression of career BSA professionals. I do wear my poly-wool uniforms outside when it's hot. The poly/wool also comes in a very dressy and superior pair of short. There's no elastic on those. I don't konw about you, but I feel like I'm wearing PJ's anytime I have elastic around my waist. I've worn them (poly-wool) at Wood Badge Courses (old) and new course staff developments. I've worn them at camporees where I was the first one there and the one to lock the gate and didn't leave in between. I can assure you that although they say "dry clean only" they can take a washing machine just fine. At risk of stepping out of line with the BSA, I'll tell you a story about the suited dress uniform. Professionals are required to have it for their training. Back in the day that I went to NEI-I we were required to travel in it. Back in the day (the 50's that my first Scout Executive hired in, profesisonals were required to be in uniform at all times on duty.) That dress uniform looked a lot like the officer's uniforms from WWII, but that's a different story. The dress uniform I'm talking aobut is the current one. For men it is a blue blazer with pewter buttons that have the BSA logo on them, silver-gray slacks, black shoes, white shirt, a red, blue and silver striped tie with a fleur-de-lis on the point, and a badge on the left pocket. The only difference for females is that the tie is substituted by a scarf or puffette. There are variances on the tie based on when it was purchased. Some puffettes and ties are special awards reserved for professionals, but they are equally gaudy. I'll tell you all a little secret about the dress uniform. I haven't met anyone yet who didn't hate it. I remember being a 22 year old on my way to profesional basic training, required to wear the dress uniform. I was standing in a terminal at Detroit Metropolitan Airport and people were asking me directions as if I were a pilot. Because it was easier to try to give directions than it was to explain exactly what I was doing in an airport "impersonating" a pilot, I read the signs and gave the best directions I could! Just kidding, I think. Talk about ill-fitting pants. Just buy a pair of official silver-gray pants . . . and feel free to return them. They don't fit anybody well! I will finish by saying this . . . I have field tested every type of Boy Scout uniform offered by the BSA since 1973. Up to and including the Cub Scout uniform which fits over my regular clothes (ask me about Captain Cub Scout some day.) I'm a small man and believe it or not, there are official Cub Scout uniforms that fit me. They have all held up with varying results in the "looks" department. The poly wool wears out quickly in the out-of-doors. It looks great on Sunday morning compared to the other types (referring to outdoor events,) but it will wear out if exposed to the elements and it will start to smell of mold if shoved in the wet corner of a Voyager tent -- my tent of preference for car camping. That's experience talking. The cotton dries quickly, but fades fast and looks like an old man by Sunday, but it's tough. The stains wash out as does the smoke smell from the campfire Saturday. However, they last for years. The most common uniform, the poly/cotton is the middle ground and the least expensive to make and buy. Now, let's go back to the question in a previous thread. "Why does the BSA have a dress uniform?" The simple answer, is that although any registered member of the BSA can buy one, most do not need one. The only time I wear the dress uniform is at funcitons such as National Meetings, Council and District Dinners, United Way Events, and other occasions where a suit is more appropriate, but I still need to identify myself as a member of the Boy Scouts of America. I don't like the thing, but it's a neccessary evil. Should you have one hanging in your closet? Probably not. That money is better spent in an FOS donation or in gas money, while in your uniform of whatever flavor, drving boys to a campout and teaching them the values found in the Scout Oath and Law. Here's one of Steele's Laws (I have a feeling there will be many.) They are meant to be humorous and truthful, but have no binding power. Ya heard it first here, folks, "If you don't have to look like a pilot in an airport when you're not...Don't. If you don't have to give directions to strangers in that strange airport, don't. Help them find someone qualified." Folks, you should feel comfortable wearing any BSA uniform at a court of honor. Just honor the youth by wearing it properly.

We had an assistant scoutmaster in the late seventies who wanted the red beret to be our troop hat. I think he's out of jail now. Seriously! He went to jail for some bad business practices. Didn't have anything to do with his bad taste in hats, but us kids thought justice was served. I liked the overseas hat when I was a young Scout. It served no useful purpose, but I liked it. I didn't want to wear it often, just tuck it under my belt. I prefer to wear no hat at all, but if I must, I like a skull-gripping golf cap rather than a nerdy baseball-style cap. As to the rest of the uniform, I've wondered since the time I was a scout and the uniform changed from puke green to the current -- is/was Oscar DeLorente (sp?) gay? DS

MP, eh? Let's not go there. Speaking of English as a second language, Eamonn, next time we talk, remind me to tell you the story of the confusion an Englishman and I had when we were talking about our leader in Peru getting "pissed." It means something completely different in English than it does in American. Abbott and Costello were kidding. Robert (my young English friend from long ago who is different than my friend Eamonn) and I truly didn't know what the other was talking about. Care to supply some definitions, Eamonn? DS

Before I head off to my training committee meeting tonight, let me say that I hope people will forget the anacronym above. I'm reminded of a story (big surprise.) I once made the mistake of telling a Wood Badge patrol during lunch at their site that I was born in 1965 and was lucky I wasn't "Moon-puppy." The patrol never forgot it and neither did the staff. I was Moon-puppy for the rest of the week! Before you smart-alecs start calling me Moonpuppy, let me point out that I take ribbing about as well as any man . . . and that ain't saying much. DS

OMG! (Oh MY God): I believe I've started something terrible that can't be stopped. Levity! What if Steele stands for STEELE -- (Stupidely Terrifying Eagerly Eccentric Leader Employee?) The D still stands for Dave. DS

Did you folks enjoy the grey bar? Good. Packsaddle asked (paraphrased) If United Way bugs out, what areas of the overall BSA program take the hit? No more Cub Scouts! Just kidding. This isn't the first time I've had this question in varying forms. I've had plenty of time to warm up and have seen some real life examples of the stuff I'm about to share. However, I do have to warn you that losing a large amount of funding in a short period of time carries with it tough choices for council officers and Scout Executives. I was being sacrastic when I said no more Cub Scouts! There isn't any clean cut answer to a budget shortfall. If there were, we could computerize it, tableify it and automatically put it in place. However, these have to be choices made by local authorities. So let's begin the scenario . . . I'll even broaden it to more than United Way because there could be a lot of factors leading to a budget crisis . . .like a bad economy we're facing today, etc. Let's say that you're in a council that just took a huge "hit" in income. You're going to go deeply into the red and won't be able to climb out of it if you continue to do business in the way you're used to. Realize that councils are made up of all people -- unit leaders, members, parents, chartered organizations, professionals, secretaries, camp staff, and on and on and on. You have lost income and need to cut expenses. The number one answer is -- generate more income. Sell more popcorn, get more kids to camp, do another special event, meet and get a gift out of a new sugar daddy or mama, kill the guy someone who told you that the council is in the will -- something! The problem with this is that people feel the squeeze and grouse that all the council does is push raising money! You can cut Learning for Life. Who needs that executive and the expenses that come with running that program? They should be able to find another job. Put Exploring under the District Executives (who know nothing about it for the most part) and know that it will wither and fade. You can shorten the hours the office is open and save on occupancy and payroll. Instead of having the office open Monday thru Friday from 9:00 to 5:00, close on Tuesday and Friday. Tell the office staff they have to take mandatory time off, or eliminate their positions entirely. Got a district that hasn't met it's FOS goal in anyone's memory, doesn't sell popcorn, goes to another council's camp, or generally doesn't participate in council activities? Cut the district executive. He/she is either a deadbeat or the district feels they don't need one, so why give them one? If the DE isn't a deadbeat, help them find another job in another council. If you're lucky enough to have someone quit during your budget crisis, don't fill the position until you have the money. Who cares if the district is poorly served during that time? (that was sarcasm, I'm sorry.) Sell the camp! That's one that's sure to raise a rucus. I think many of us have seen this solution, but sometimes it's the only financially responsible way to go. Stop paying national. People are paying for local service and we have to bail ourselves out first. This, by the way, is definately what they call a career ender for Scout Executives. To the units it's no big deal until they have to pay cash for their badges and wait 30 days for them to come! And there's always the final solution -- merge with a neighboring council, who will inherit your money problems. Hope that the new larger council is able to raise more money with lower expenses. Where does the money to fund a council come from? FOS, Popcorn/ product sales, camping income, United Way, activity income, special events, and in some cases, investments and returns on endowment, wills and bequests, etc. If any one of these areas takes a hit, and the council can't recover by increasing any of the above, it must make cuts or face obiliteration. Where is the money spent? A lot on camp, it's also spent on salaries because our services are delivered through people. It's spent on mundane things like printing, postage, telephone, leasing costs for equipment, etc. How can a unit help the council pay the costs to cover the expenses associated with it's often unrecognized services. 1. Have a unit FOS presentation and support it to your best ability. 2. Sell your council's products and not your own. I'm talking council popcorn and council wreaths. The last two councils I've served have done wreath sales and popcorn sales. Some units, in their own desire to build their treasuries have found that they can make more money contracting wreaths on their own than they can going through the council sale. This is because the council keeps a portion of the profit and they can eliminate the middle man. It's good financial planning, but usually means they don't understand the service the council is actually providing them. 3. Attend your own council's camping programs. When a unit goes to another council's summer camp, they are generating income and expense to the other council. However, what they don't realize is that for every council camp, there is a "break even" number. There are fixed costs to summer camp. There are required staff positions that are the same for 100 campers as they are for 2000. Those are some of the salaries I talked about in a previous thread. The more kids in camp, the cheaper you can feed them. Utility and phone bills will be the same regardless of the number of kids in camp. The bottom line -- going to another council's camp HURTS your council financially. It doesn't not help them. It hurts. For example, the camp I am currently supervising really needs at least 400 Scouts to be financially viable. We're nearly 10% under that at this point. That means that I have to make sure we fall 10% under on expenses. We have about the same ugly options I outlined for councils. Our Business Manager (which was a hunk of camp salary last year) decided not to return. So the Camp Director will have to take on the load. Relieves budget, will hurt the camp director's effectiveness. However, the returning staff is returning at slightly higher salaries because of their experience, so it's a wash. I don't know if you remember, but there was an episode of Drew Carey where he had to cut the store's budget line-by-line by a little bit. That's what we're doing. I hope it can be enough. 4. Make sure your unit represents the Scouting program in your community proudly and in uniform. It's a whole lot easier for councils to get donations from local businesses when people see Scouts in uniform participating in Scouting for Food, parades and selling popcorn. Stories in the newspaper don't necessary do a whole lot. A Scout in eye-sight is a heart-warmer for the majority. I hope your council never falls on hard times and has to face the choices I've outlined in the "cuts" section of this post. By the way, I have seen in print, or have lived through all of the cuts I mentioned. None of them were pretty. Councils can climb out of financial hardships, but it takes everyone's help. This year has been particularly tough for many councils. In fact all of the councils I'm in regular contact with this year. Food for thought. Ds(This message has been edited by dsteele)

Packsaddle, thank you for joining me in trying to bring this thread back to funding. Don't worry, I'm not about to get out a soap box. You're not alone in not understanding where the money comes from. You're not alone in not seeing the need for a council, although that particular view is less frequent. To quote, you said, in part, "Our troop sees zip from the council." You gave councils credit for camp, and you were right to do so. I forget how you phrased it, but it didn't come across as offensive to me. As for the part about seeing zip from the council, let me take this opportunity to explain some of what is there, but isn't recognized by many to be the council in action. If I miss something, I hope others will jump to my aide. Do you have a District Executive? Has he or she ever done anything for you. Have you ever gotten in a bind and had to have them deliver something to you at roundtable, a camporee, your own home? Has a member of the professional staff ever answered a question you asked whether by phone, email, personal contact, etc? Or answered any questions asked by any parent or leader in your unit? Who do you think reviews adult applications you sent in? Who enters the information into national's system? The DE and registrar in that order. Both are local council employees. When forms are mailed to the council office such as advancement forms, tour permits, requests for certificates of insurance, requests for supplies, etc. Who handles them? The national office? No. The council office personnel. In some cases it is handled by multiple people. In another thread which has somehow wound it's way into taking about child abuse, I see a whole lot of references to calling a professional and one even suggests waking the Scout Executive up at home in the middle of the night if necessary. And it is absolutely correct in that direction. You probably see where this is going, but I need to toss in a couple of non-personnel ways your unit is served by the council that are not readily recognized. Let's go to the council office itself. Every council has a large line item in the budget called occupancy. That includes lighting and heating and cooling for the buildings, snow removal and/or landscaping, etc. Do they have computers at the office, copiers, fax machines, telephones, and all those other things that cost money to provide the services expected? Has anyone in your unit, including yourself, ever received anything in the mail from the council? I'm talking about newsletters, flyers for training, flyers for events, etc.? Look at the price of postage and multiply it by a lot. Also realize that someone printed that one the couuncil's dime. Even if it was written by a volunteer, for the most part (I know somethings are done outside the office by volunteers -- but that poses a different problem. It means that when people call the office no one has a clue what the person is talking about,) a professional reviewed it and approved it before it went out in the mail. All of these things and many more are ways your unit (wherever in the world you are) are served by the council. They aren't readily visible, but they are services. I'm going to give your eyes a little break and answer the second part of packsaddle's question -- If UW bugs out, which parts of the BSA overall program take the hit. DS

I grew up in a car camping troop that occasionally backpacked. I enjoyed both. I was a Scoutmaster of a car camping troop. We didn't buy a trailer, although there was talk of it. Then I went to a Marriott. Now I'm that kind of camper. DS

I used to think that LOL means lots of love. It made a whole lot more sense when I finally found out that in today's world of email, it means "Laugh Out Loud." I'm glad I finally figured out what IMO and IMHO are. Until the light came on yesterday, I thought it was a ROAC (Random Act Of Capitalization.) I just made that one up. DS

I'm in no position to join the grousing about the uniform parts offered by the Boy Scouts of America. If you doubt that, just check out my profile. You'll understand why. Trust me when I say that I'm not content with the uniform parts. That's why I buy the poly-wool and cotton stuff. The cut and quality is better and their uses are different. I do ask that you realize that, although the membership of the BSA is vast, in terms of adults and youth members, our stuff -- compared to Walmart and Kmart, and other outlets, even the expensive jeans manufacturers is a huge, but special order. I used to complain especially about the Boy Scout socks. The same pair faded at different intervals, etc. I pointed this out in 1990 to the head of the Supply Division at a professional development level III and he said, "how many sox do you think a major American manufacturer makes that are green with red tops?" Relatively speaking, not so many. That drives the price up. There's a lot of pressure on our organization to provide a distinctive uniform, but it must also meet the needs of field (camping stuff to most) and court of honors and other ceremonial occasions that we want the Scouts to look sharp while attending. The title of this thread is uniform costs. Do we want two uniforms for our youth? A field uniform and a dress uniform? Would you like the label or more, truly, the manufacturer of the Boy Scouts of America official uniform to be anyone other than an American? Rhetorical question. Open to debate. To those who shop at thrift stores, I say, cool! I don't think the movement is out to make money on it's uniforms. I can tell you that the council and national mark-up on uniforms isn't much. We'll mark up collapsible cups, folding toothbrushes and other knick-knacks, but when it comes to books and uniforms -- it's barely enough to keep the store open. I also want to point out that our market isn't large enough to have sizes to fit all. The reason the pants come un-hemmed and with rises that correspond to the waist-line is to keep costs down. The rise doesn't fit everyone, but if they were to have the pants made in specific lengths, there would be problems with having to carry a lot of inventory that may or may not sell as well as shelf space in often too-small scout shops. We've gone to Scout Shops instead of the J.C. Penny catalogue in recent years mostly because of the lack of mark up available to retailers. The price is close to the cost of goods. Most commercial retailers who are still Scout dealers are doing it to create public goodwill, and not to generate profits. That's why you tend to get lousy service there. I'm sure there are exceptions, but for the most part, it's a service provided by the local council. Or by your local Scout Distributor. Wouldn't it be great if our membership was strong enough to be able to get wierd pants and sox cheaper? 4 Million members wearing green and red sox, or blue and yellow isn't enough to drive the price down, compared to the population of the United States. To provide an example: Let's say that the population of the Chicago Area wore a specific type of pant, shirt, or sock. Would those 4 million people present enough of the population to get Dickie to make green and red work pants? Probably. But they'd pay more than the guy in Kalamazoo that wants the same pair of gray ones as the guy in Tulsa! Food for thought. DS

I love the uniform stuff. This is an interesting thread. Let me preface by saying that I have no problem with anything mentioned so far in this thread. The pickle Eamonn wears is interesting. I've seen those before and may have even had one on the collar of my red jacket at some point in time. I don't remember what it stood for, either. It's not official, but it's just a pickle, after all! Maybe it's Freudian. I've lost my pickle and can't remember what it was for! LOL! At one time, I had nine uniforms (they were much more comfortable than a coat and tie and that's what the Scout Executive demanded that we wear if we weren't in field uniform.) 6 uniforms were the poly-wool. 3 were 100% cotton. Yes, OGE, they softened, but I have been doing my own ironing and sewing since I was 8 years old. Having so many uniforms led me to a few rules of my own. For everyone, if you've earned it and it doesn't violate printed uniform guidelines (which don't cover pickles from what I've studied) you can wear it. Nothing says you have to wear it. I know many volunteers and professionals who have "general's uniforms" as Bob White said. I think it's great to have a uniform that impresses folks as well as gets the boys to ask questions. I have a general's uniform as well. I've been known to wear it when I'm about to go into a hostile situation where someone or someones far older than myself and with longer Scouting tenure want to tell the professional that he doesn't know what he's talking about. It's a poly-wool uniform with everything I'm still entitled (as an adult) to wear. It doesn't see much use. I've learned over the years that I rarely need such a tactic. But it does include the "Darth Vader" knot (reserved for professionals.) My "everyday" uniforms have no more than three knots on them. I have five, but like to keep people guessing. They include a combination of, but not all of, the eagle knot, the James E. West Fellowship (a gift from my wife for our 5th anniversary) the Arrow of Light, the Scoutmaster's Key, the Professional Fellowship ... but only three at a time. The other patches on all my uniforms include the position patch -- Council Executive Staff -- Council Strip, American flag, World Fellowship patch, and, in a couple of cases the 1997 Jamboree patch -- more because it's removal scars the poly-wool fabric and, besides, as far as I'm concerned it covers an old wound. I was the logistics coordinator for Action Center B at the 1997 Jamboree and got "shot up" pretty good. I tried very hard for a bad evaluation, but they wouldn't give it to me. Had to fend off the "hand of God" to not have to go back in 2001, but that's a different story. A couple of my uniforms have the lodge flap on them, but not all. I sew recreationally, but just don't like the position of that particular patch. I don't wear a temporary patch because I don't want to show favoritism to any particular district or council activity and don't feel like changing them all the time. I wear my Wood Badge Beads frequently. Not always, but frequently. They're not all my beads. The first two beads were the two that were originally awarded to my father (he's still alive . . . relax) and the third bead was awarded for the first time I staffed the course. Of course, I've always lived in the upper mid-west and am a small guy. So most of the time, it doesn't matter what's on my uniform to anyone but me. I've got three of the fatigue-style sweaters that came out in the late '80's and early 90's. In the upper mid-west it's usually either chilly, cold, freezing cold, or chilly again. I usually have the sweater on. Sometimes I let my beads hang out. My red jacket is my third red jacket. It's lost it's pickle, and is now completely unadorned. For myself, which is different than IMHO (I should tell you that it took me until last week to figure out what that means,) I prefer the minimalist look. Or semi-minimalist. I think it's great for trainers and commissioners to wear all that they're entitlted to wear. It may inspire someone to emulate them. For me, as a professional, it may inspire me to tell me something they wouldn't tell the Assistant Scout Executive, but that IS something I need to know. DS

Eamonn -- It's an interesting question. "Where do we get off making rules?" It's also a very valid question. I'm not being sarcastic in the least. When I was a Scoutmaster, I had a few rules (more traditions than formalized rules) that I carried from traditions in the troop I grew up in. No electronics was a big one. Remember, at the time, electronics meant the little AM radios all us us kids seemed to have. Did the troop committee or scoutmaster have the right to make that rule? I don't know. Usually, when asked about a troop "rule" or any other unit, I'll run it by the chartered organization. If it's not a unit rule, but one imposed by the chartered organization (such as not camping over Saturday night. It's not just the LDS that don't) I'll suggest another troop the boy might want to join that's more in line with the parent philosophy. If it's a BSA policy violation, it becomes very easy. Either they can or they can't. Most of the time, unit rules become philosophical issues. Such as the debate about phone cards and cell phones. I haven't found any national policies either for or against them. Sometimes we have to remember that recommendations based on experiences are only recommendations. Should or should not is different than can or can not and even more different than may or may not. If they were all the same, we'd only have to learn one phrase. Ya gotta love the glories of the english language! Experience is a wonderful thing. It can help to make what we perceive as good advice. But experience is also a very personal thing. We relate differently to the things we know and hear. For example: if someone who bought a lottery ticket every week for 50 years and never won were to see a young man buying his first lottery ticket, he/she might say, "Young man, I've been buying lottery tickets every week for fifty years, you'll never win." There are several reactions a young man might have, based on his own experience and thought processes. Some might think, "I don't want to be an old fool like this one," and not buy the ticket. Others might think, "That's your bad luck, I might win!" Others still might think, "Well, the odds are against me, but it's only a buck!" Ya pays your money, and you takes your chances. I don't tend to buy lottery tickets. I've only bought one lotto ticket in my life. I'm nut much of a gambler when it comes to money. I've gotten off on a bit of a tangent, so I'll try to string myself back. If you've allowed cell phones, phone cards, etc. on your campouts, then banning them at summer camp isn't prudent. I think I've seen good advice from many corners in this thread. I also think that some very experienced Scouters have warned of the possible harm in allowing them. My own stance was to regulate them a little bit. We're talking advice here and not policy. Take it or don't. Advice is never any substitute for personal judgement -- it's just an excuse to say either "I told you so!" or a reason to say, "You told ME so." If Scouting didn't count on the judgement of it's unit leaders, there would be a written test on the application and not the approval of the chartered organization, the committee and the acceptance of the Scout Executive or designee. That not only means that we have the ability to trust our judgement (and the annual approval process called rechartering,) in my view that means we have an obligation to use our judgement, along with the policies and guidelines of the chartered organization to make (within the system) rules and use our judgement for the betterment of the boys and the Scouting program. Devil's Advocate was a game I played in college, but I can't afford to toy with it anymore. I'd like to hear some different philosophys, or your philosophy. I won't necessarily respond unless it's grossly against the rules. DS BTW -- phone cards and cell phones aren't against the rules. Perhaps against conventional wisdom, but not in violation of any rule on a national level. DS

Care packages. Hmmm. Thinking like a 16 year old, and it's been a while, but it hasn't been that long. Here are a few different suggestions: 1. Baked goods from Mom. It doesn't matter if you bake them or if they come from Mrs. Archway (as in Archway cookies, get it? If he/she is used to them, they'll go a long way toward a much deserved smile. 2. Pre-paid phone cards, with the understanding that he/she doesn't have to use them to call home. There may be a special "crush" they want to call. Hey, you let them get this far, why not let them call their special friends? 3. Cash for their "night out" or however your camp works it. If they can get out for a Big Mac and a Movie at your expense, they'll be greatful. I guarantee it! If they can't, they'll use it for soda that you don't have to pay to ship. Win-win. 4. Their regular pillow from their bed at home. If they were't smart enough to take it with them, they'll be more than ready for it by day 5 of staff week. This treat will be their's alone and pity the fellow staffer who tries to take it from them. First of all, it won't "fit." Secondly, "it's their's daggone it!" DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

It's been several hours and no CPA has come forward. Please, if you're a CPA and wish to contradict my opinion, I guarantee I won't be offended. Here's my take on the taking of deductions for voluntary stuff done in the name of Scouting. Mark, you said it in part of one of your sentences. You mentioned your work for Scouting. I'm paraphrasing, but I believe you were referring to your mileage/gas, copies, etc. You take these as deductibles, and from all I've been taught, you are correct to do so. There have been slight revisions in the tax code, but I think the interpretation is still that this is work for the Boy Scouts of America and is not a donation to a specific troop. The IRS has made it clear that uniforms for volunteers are not a tax-deductible item. They're not required. They're deductible for professionals (within reason) because they are required for business use (they're a business deduction and not a volunteer deduction) and because we can't realistically wear them for daily wear. The Century 21 Real Estate guy/gal can take the deduction for the ugly brown jacket for the same reason. My best advice to you that take voluntary deductions based on your volunteer work is to make sure that they're documented with receipts, mileage logs, etc. Be ready to make your case. Also, hope that the IRS agent got up on the right side of the bed and didn't start eating his sandwich from the wrong side. But if they did, appeal it! BTW -- I think the IRS has gone a long way toward fixing it's image with the public over the last several years. Just a point of trivia, however. Do you know how many "dependents," America's youth, disappeared in the mid-eighties when the IRS required social security numbers for dependents? . . . Six million in one year! Poof. Gone. The source is USA Today sometime in April. Maybe the IRS wasn't all that incorrect to be mis-trustful in the 80's. Or, as I would prefer to believe, there were a LOT of fake families, but few liars in the 80's. I've been called naive before. Don't know why. DS

Thanks, bondtrader. Welcome to the forums. They are filled with lots of good people and I'm glad you're one of us. Everyone has something to contribute, whether it be a well worded question, or one someone was afraid to ask, an opinion or an answer. I hope we'll get your input frequently. It's always good to have a financially knowledgeable addition to anything, in my opinion. Ds

Thre is one question on the floor, and it was directed at the professionals. It feels like I'm the only one here at the moment, so I guess it's up to me . . . Acco40 asked "Given the BSA's current policy, if another world Scouting organization allows avowed homosexual youth or leaders, may we in good conscience attend a camporee that they attend?" Acco, I have to admit that my first reaction was a theoretical reaction. Several different thoughts came shooting through my brain. The first was, what world scouting organization allows it? Then I realized that I don't know the answer to that one and don't really have time to worry about it, so I moved on to the next. The next question was, "What was up with the first question?" My first question, not yours. I had originally read your question backwards and envisioned troops from other countries attending our national Jamboree. Or the BSA endorsement of the World Jamboree, or the Pan-American Jamboree, etc. And answered your question in that light with a "yes." Then I re-read your question and looked at your profile. The light came on in my head and there's no way I can say "no." I believe you're referring to the Candaian Camporee put on by the Canadian Scouting program every year in Sarnia, Ontario. Pay your toll, cross the Blue River Bridge and have a great time. As a DE in northeastern Michigan, I used to encourage my troops to participate in that event. I'd be a hypocrite to change that tune now. Your conscience is your own and I can't answer for it. Only you can do that. But I sure wouldn't let it bother me. Your responsibility is to maintain the program and policies of the Boy Scouts of America. My advice is do that, and your conscience should let you sleep very well after a full day of activities. Enjoy the Camporee. Only one man's answer. Opinions may vary by council. DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

Great idea, selling the games CD in the Scout Shop. I never thought of that one. We looked at the cost and realized that we couldn't afford to hand out 50 cents to every kid at every boy talk -- which is what was presented to us. But we could definately sell them at cost to the packs. Thanks for the great suggestion! DS

Mark -- Since you've strung three initials together and invoked the name of an organization I only have something to do with once a year, I'll wait for the CPA answer, too. For the record, (in case Mark's last line proves prophetic) I am brutally honest when I do my taxes each year and I'm sure our friend Mark does, too! DS

If I may shed a little light (Joni, correct me if I'm wrong.) According to the research I've done and the report I have in front of me, your council's headquarters is in Tokyo, Japan. Your council serves Americans in Japan, Korea, the Phillipines, the Republic of China (Taiwan), Ryukyu Islands, and Thailand. In the latest report I have of unit serving executives (dated 12/31/2002) you have Two District Executives and a Scout Executives. Seems to me that those guys are stretched pretty thin. That means that your volunteer structure is also stretched pretty thin. It's no slam against you, Joni. I'm just trying to point it out to others. If your council is considering your 2 day day camp as a council activity, you probably don't have to meet the national standards for a day camp. I'm half-way sure of it, but, as Twocubdad points out, and as I pointed out in my original post -- check the standards. You'll never offend me by checking on what I tell you. If I don't quote the source it's probably because I don't have the source in front of me and you'll do well to not trust my memory. I was wrong once in the early 90's and the scar hasn't left me. I'm kidding. I'm right more than I'm wrong, but that doesn't mean I'm not wrong often. I'm not going to claim knowledge on every aspect of scouting. It's too rich and vast for anyone to do that. As to weather you cancel or not, Joni, that's up to your district and council leadership. I don't have all the facts and any guesses I have would be speculation. That's not fair to either one of us when we're half a world apart. Now, to clarify what I meant by not having to meet the national standards for Cub Scout Day Camp, let me use the following example. Remember that I was speculating when I brought forth the theory. (And I don't mean to belittle your council.) If I were the Scout Executive of this sprawling council for americans in a foreign land, I could have a two day day camp and say that it isn't a day camp, it's two Cub Scout field days held back to back. Some of the kids repeat it, but why do I need to be held to the standards which are designed for 3 or more days of the same camp held consecutively at the same location? DS

Bob, I don't think we were disagreeing with each other. After reading your latest post, I still don't find anything to disagree with. Admittedly homosexual leaders are given the "membership in the Boy Scouts of America is a privelidge" letter and are out. They can appeal, but until someone reverses the decision, they're done as registered leaders. When it comes to youth, as your post says, we recommend they seek the counsel of others to make sure they're making a mature decision. I wasn't looking to get into a discussion of homosexuality. It's non-productive. The BSA has made it's stand and I am in no position to change it. Nor do I care to change it. I further agree scouting is not for everyone. There is a reason we're a private organization. (Now I'm preaching to the masses, Bob and not to you directly. You know this stuff.) Membership in the Boy Scouts of America is an honor that is granted and approved, not one that is God-given. For example, because of an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, we have the right to free speech. Citizenship is not a right. It can be denied based on certain rules. The same is true of membership in the Boy Scouts of America. I've endured a lot in this fight, including my own spitting-mad mother calling me a homo-phobic nazi. As far as I'm concerned, it isn't homo-sexuals against the Boy Scouts of America. It's about the Boy Scouts of America, as a private organization, to defend it's right to determine its own standards of membership. If we lose that right, what's to stop others from taking away a belief that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Saviour away from churches? Or to require other religions to admit anyone who wishes, whether or not they accept the practice, to their place of worship or congregation? The BSA certainly isn't a religion, but it's not that much of a stretch. I'm off my soap-box now. DS

Man o' steel would have flown the flag to the top. But I can't fly, and I'm no super DE. I did recognize it as a great tool for publicity and did write a letter to the editor. I didn't send the letter, however. I should hang my head in shame for missing such an opportutnity, but I had the feeling that the donor wished to remain anonymous. That stayed my hand. If someone wants to use their goodwill to the BSA as publicity and it's good for the BSA, I'm all for it. If someone wishes to remain unknown, I'll do my best to protect that. As much as it may pain me to do so. But I do think it's cool that someone "unstole" our flag. I'm glad you had fun at the school night. I hope a lot of young men joined the program in your council. DS

In nearly 15 years of professional service with the Boy Scouts of America I have never seen nor heard of a young man being kicked out because of doubts about his sexuality. I've also never seen nor heard of an openly gay youth member being turned away by a troop. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but if it had occurred in my service area at any time, it certainly should have made my attention. The much debated policy of no homosexuals in the Boy Scouts of America relates to leaders. Not those under the age of 18. If a Cub Scout tells me he's gay, will I advocate his removal from the Boy Scouts of America? I don't think so. He still probably thinks girls have coodies! Do I think he needs help? Yes! He needs to know that girls don't have coodies! (Okay, so I had to make a little light there.) Now, let me say that I have had to deal with two instances of youth abusing youth in a sexual manner. However, I separate these from the homosexual issue. These abuses were about power. In both cases, the matter was turned over to the police. Counseling was provided to the troop. These had nothing to do with boys questioning their sexuality. There were crimes committed. DS