dsteele

It sounds like you may have received an older certificate. It may be Jerre (pronounced Jerry) Ratcliff's signature. He was Chief Scout Executive, I believe from 1992 to 2001. He was a good guy. DS

Buffalo2 -- I'll be happy to share these with you, but can we wait until tomorrow? I'll need to dig out the national position descriptions, and I'll also offer my experience in what works well and what doesn't. One disclaimer -- please pay careful attention to my post and realize when I'm presenting my opinion. I don't want to use the word interpret, because some people might think that my words are an interpretation of law . . . that isn't the case. As always, your local leadership takes precedence over what is typed on these boards. This includes mine and any other member of the forums. But I will get you an answer. Are there any particular areas you have questions about? Or anyone else reading this thread? DS

I don't want you to think that no one is responding to your question. I just read it for the first time and am trying to figure out where to find your answer. I think you may be on to something about the manufacturer, but I'm not sure. I'll give it some thought. Don't hold your breath for an answer, but I do have it on the back burner to check into just for the sake of curiosity. DS

This message is posted purely to keep on the table what ought to be there. Someone screwed something up on 5/26/03 and I don't think it was any worker/moderator of these forums. DS

Something bad happened in these forums this evening. I'm not sure what it is, but didn't want to see this thread buried before we were done with it. So here it is. Post away. DS PS from DS, is there a moderator who would explain what happened? Just curious and I'm sure I'm not the only one. DS -- again.

The other guys who posted above me are more respectful and polite than my heart tells me to be. I will, however, follow their excellent example of the Scout Law in action and not knock your head around the room as I so very much desire to do. I, too, applaud your pride in your crew. However, I would like to point out that I spend my personal time (and I have precious little of that) on these boards trying to answer the very real concerns some folks have who also do not wish to call their local council officials to answer. I consider this my service project that I truly enjoy. If you want tips on how to improve your crew or have questions that need an answer from the collective wisdom of these boards, please do ask. If you want to advertise, please go through proper channels. Please do keep your pride in your unit. I'm sure it's deserved. But please don't yell "fire" in this here movie theatre (which is what you're doing when you post so many irrelevant times.) There are a lot of great guys and gals on this board who are here to help. Why would you want to make us angry? I'd love to see an answer. DS Please note that I did say "please." That means it's still only a request.

KoreaScouter: I'm so sorry for your loss and the family's loss. I truly wish us civilians could do something meaningful to those who pass in the name of freedom. I spent several hours this afternoon calling veterans and thanking them for their service. I think it made them feel good. I know it made me feel good. The veterans I spoke to were from all branches of service and spanned WWII, Korea, the Bay of Pigs Invasion, etc. Today I talked to cooks, sergeants, and a Colonel. I'm proud and grateful of and for each one. I only wish it could help your efforts, but maybe you'll smile a bit to know that what you do matters to individuals who are enjoying the freedoms that you are there to protect. Our local newspaper also had a special section today. In it they ran the stories of all the personnel we lost in every branch during Operation Iraqi Freedom. I made a promise to the dead to read the entire section. I had to stop four times, but eventually made good on my promise. How amazing that we lost so few, but how painful is each loss? I'm not opposed to the war. In fact, I'm all for it, but I felt pain with each story. I think today was a very special Memorial Day for every generation in America. I'm very proud of our troops. The phone calls I made to the veterans I'm aware of (there are so many I don't know are veterans, and I hope to make it up to them throughout the rest of the year,) were very special to me and I hope special to them. I encourage all to take a few hours or moments on Memorial Day or Veteran's day, to call those who were members of the armed services of the US of A and say, thanks for your service. I'm also saying today, a prayer for the two members of my family who were lost to war, Corporal Benjamin Griggs, an ancestor of mine who died at Valley Forge over 200 years ago and my great uncle, Staff Sergeant Elmer W. Beck, who has been missing since January 1944 in a bombing mission over New Guinea. Any information about Sgt. Beck would be greatly appreciated. Thank you to all who have served. DS

KoreaScouter: I'm so sorry for your loss and the family's loss. I truly wish us civilians could do something meaningful to those who pass in the name of freedom. I spent several hours this afternoon calling veterans and thanking them for their service. I think it made them feel good. I know it made me feel good. The veterans I spoke to were from all branches of service and spanned WWII, Korea, the Bay of Pigs Invasion, etc. Today I talked to cooks, sergeants, and a Colonel. I'm proud and grateful of and for each one. I only wish it could help your efforts, but maybe you'll smile a bit to know that what you do matters to individuals who are enjoying the freedoms that you are there to protect. Our local newspaper also had a special section today. In it they ran the stories of all the personnel we lost in every branch during Operation Iraqi Freedom. I made a promise to the dead to read the entire section. I had to stop four times, but eventually made good on my promise. How amazing that we lost so few, but how painful is each loss? I'm not opposed to the war. In fact, I'm all for it, but I felt pain with each story. I think today was a very special Memorial Day for every generation in America. I'm very proud of our troops. The phone calls I made to the veterans I'm aware of (there are so many I don't know are veterans, and I hope to make it up to them throughout the rest of the year,) were very special to me and I hope special to them. I encourage all to take a few hours or moments on Memorial Day or Veteran's day, to call those who were members of the armed services of the US of A and say, thanks for your service. I'm also saying today, a prayer for the two members of my family who were lost to war, Corporal Benjamin Griggs, an ancestor of mine who died at Valley Forge over 200 years ago and my great uncle, Staff Sergeant Elmer W. Beck, who has been missing since January 1944 in a bombing mission over New Guinea. Any information about Sgt. Beck would be greatly appreciated. Thank you to all who have served. DS

I'm all for providing organizational tools to the Scouts to help them keep track of the required paperwork for badges. However, let's not forget on whom the responsibility lies . . . the individual Scout. It's part of his learning curve. Parents can, and probably should, encourage and keep advancement in the forefront of the Scout's brain, but it's up to him to complete the requirements and, to a large degree (at least in my mind) keep track of what's done. I have seen parents who literally run around a campout with the Scout's book open and saying, "Billy, you just met a requirement!" I happen to think Billy ought to complete the requirement on purpose. Or, a helpful adult might say, "Billy, maybe you should look at your handbook, there might be something you accomplished . . ." Now, before the by-the-bookers go looking for a BSA reference to the above, let me save you some time . . . there isn't one. It's just a personal preference of mine. There is room for philosophy in the BSA in certain areas. If there weren't, I'd be out of a job. DS

KS -- Isn't it amazing that some people in this world refuse to make sense? I wish there were something we could do to re-join the kid's mom with reality, but I fear there isn't. One final story before I leave to do something truly important -- call the veterans I know and thank them for their service on this Memorial Day 2003 . . . There was a Scout Executive, not so long ago, who had been in the same position in the same council for 23 years at the time of this story. Let me further illuminate by saying that calling this man merely eccentric would be like calling a Harvard Professor a Yale Professor -- you demote them both! A television reporter called this Scout Executive to arrange an interview regarding child abuse in the Boy Scouts. The Scout Executive said, "What time do you go to bed at night?" "Around 12:00 AM," the reporter answered. "Fine," the SE said, "Call me at home at 11:30." This was Eastern Standard time and the news comes on at 11:00 PM. The reporter called the Scout Executive at home at the appointed hour. The Scout Executive, I said, was eccentric, but a long cry away from being dumb. He knew the reporter wasn't used to working at that hour. He figured, correctly, that the reporter wouldn't be thinking quite clearly and he counted on it. The reporter requested an interview date, and the Scout Executive said (I'll get this as close to verbatim as I can,) "You're in the news business," he said to the reporter, "so when you watch the news, you probably do nothing else and pay attention to every word." The reporter agreed that he did. The Scout Executive said, "Well, I think I'm like most people. When I watch the news, I'm also reading the paper, doing some work, glancing at a magazine . . . something else as well. Do you think most people do that?" The reporter allowed that yes, most people do other things while watching the news. The Scout Executive said, "So, when I watch the news, let's say I'm watching the interview with you and I. Every once in a while, I look up at the TV and hear child abuse and the Boy Scouts. Child abuse and the Boy Scouts." The reporter agreed with that, too. "Let's say that I'm a father of a first-grader who wants to join Tiger Cubs. All I remember from that interview is child abuse and the Boy Scouts. Do you think I'm going to sign my son up if that's all I remember?" The reporter agreed that he probably wouldn't. "Are you aware," the Scout Executive asked, "that of every 100 boys who join Scouting, 2 will use their scouting skills to save their own life?" The reporter wasn't aware of that. "Are you aware that of every 100 boys who join Scouting, 2 will use the skills they learn in Scouting to save someone else's life?" The reporter wasn't aware of that either. The Scout Executive, rounding the bend, said, "Are you aware we're talking about 600,000 lives saved? I don't want to be responsible for the deaths of all those people, do you?" There was no interview in that council. Have a good Memorial Day. Thank you to all the veterans of our Armed Forces. The red, white and blue ribbons tied to my trees are for you guys. DS

KS -- Feel free to respectfully disagree whenever you respecftully disagree. I will point out that I was responding as a technician. My intent was to post the bare bones the BSA system will accept when the registrar enters a new troop and the first charter is issued. I definately agree that I wouldn't want to run a troop without Assitant Scoutmasters and I meant no disrespect to Assistant Scoutmasters. I've been a Scoutmaster and, KoreaScouter, I think we'd be lucky to have even a spork to eat with without them. I also agree with KoreaScouter that it's probably easier to start another troop than to reform the old one. If you go the other way, the path of reform, Dancin' has excellent suggestions as well. I know him and he walks the walk and talks the talk. DS

As someone pointed out, there are a whale of a lot of approvals required before a young man earns Eagle. The system is designed so it can't be circumvented (and we all know that someone, somewhere, somehow will find a way to circumvent just about anything.) It sounds like the system was circumvented in this instance because no one was prepared to take the heat and say "no." Mark, I applaud you for sticking to your guns on the Family Life Merit Badge. It sounds like you took a substantial amount of heat for doing it, but I think your conscience would have troubled you much more at a later date if you have allowed the young man to complete a requirement after the age of 18. As far as I'm concerned I owe you (and every other leader that requires the reqirements) for upholding the reputation of Eagle Scouts -- mine included and every other Eagle earned since Eagle 1. I once had a young man who was on camp staff when I was the assistant camp director call me. "Mr. Steele," he said, "I need an extention on my Eagle." I asked if he had suddenly become mentally handicapped. He said, "No. I just haven't gotten it done and I turn 18 next week." This was just after family life had become required and he hadn't even started it yet. I had no choice but to inform him that there was no extention and that he had blown his opportunity to become an Eagle Scout. I don't feel guilty about telling him that in the slightest. Luckily, his father, a prominent volunteer at the time didn't yell at me. He quit doing stuff, and maybe that's why, but there were others who took his place. Here's why I don't feel guilty. I write this for the benefit of those who have, like Mark, felt it their duty to stand tough. 1. I became a professional scouter because I wanted to do something good with my life and because I feel a debt to Scouting. However, that does not negate my responsibility to say "no." when no is needed. In fact it heightens it. I've had to make some tough calls in 14 years of professional service. I can't think of one off hand that I would "take back." I'm sure that some of you volunteer because it feels good to do good work, but I don't think that removes the duty to make sure that what's done is right. 2. I think that by not making Eagle through a time-extention, the young man was taught that there are deadlines in this world and that missing them can carry some very real consequences. For the rest of his life the young man will not be an eagle scout. I hope he learned a valuable lesson. 3. Let's remember that we're here to teach values. Not to make Eagle Scouts. Sure, we all rejoice when we have a young man who we helped to earn the rank of Eagle. However, let's think about the young man in my story -- he didn't make Eagle. He did, however, achieve the rank of Life Scout and had eight years of Scout leaders teaching him values. He's still, (as far as I know) trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. At the end of the day, when we've done our jobs well, let's go home and sleep like babies. If someone's cheesed off at you, that's their problem. DS

Eamonn: I love your sense of humor. Or is it humour? Either way, in American, you is a funny dude! We keep the good cheese in Wisconsin. I'm afraid that American cheese is American, but it isn't really cheese. I'll also admit, sheepishly, that cheese in a spray can isn't really cheese either, but I've been known to eat it with cheer from time to time. If you come visit, I'll make sure the cheese is good in exchange for a properly made cup of tea. Earl Grey is my preference. DS

Tim: I'm glad you had a great time and learned a lot. Now you understand why I cut my sweatshirt off with a pair of scissors when I got home from COPE school! I couldn't lift my arms. But what a great time it was. DS

Julia: I've read your OA post. One option to keep in mind is starting a new troop. Here's what you need: 1. A chartered partner. Contact your District Executive if you're interested. They can help you find one. This can be a church (my perference) or service club, or business, or one of a myriad of other options. 2. A chartered organization representative. This person will be the liason between the troop and the chartered partner. Should be a member of the charter partner, but not neccessarily. This position can also be doubled with a committee member or the committee chairman. 3. A Committee Chairman -- to oversee the troop committee and run the troop committee meetings. 4. 2 Committee members 5. One Scoutmaster. You don't need ASM's, but it's nice to have. 6. 5 paid registered members. Actually, you can get by with 3 paid members and 2 transfers. Those are the minimums to start a new troop and new traditions. If you feel you can help fix the troop your son is in, then I suggest you wait for the people to kick the snot out of me and help to fix it. If you'd rather start from scratch, you now know what it takes at the minimum to start a new troop. I hope that you'll exercise one of the two options I'm laying out -- change your current troop from within, or lead toward a fresh start -- rather than dropping out of Scouting. You haven't even hinted that dropping is your intent, and I applaud you for that, but that's what many in your position would do. Thank you for sticking with it. DS

What I'm about to tell you is an opinion -- I'm speaking as someone with a lot of experience with the BSA and not, at the moment, as a professoinal. My theory on why a district representative is required to sit on Eagle Scout Boards of Review is that you are there to make sure the process is followed correctly. This is not to say that you can't ask questions like any other member of the board of review, but I think you should remove yourself a bit and watch the types of questions being asked and the Scout's answered. If I were in your position, I would hope to make it through the entire BOR without having to say anything other than to congratulate the candidate when it's over. But that's just me. In the rare instance that you might feel that the rest of the BOR is breaching a rule or doing something wrong, ask the candidate to leave the room and point the rest of the folks in the right direction. DS

New anacronym -- GBTUSA. I used to put it on correspondence, but no one really caught on. I mean it to stand for God Bless the United States of America. GBTUSA DS

Eamonn: You took a risk to do the right thing. You broke a rule to do the right thing. The point is, you did the right thing. I don't believe you need to punish yourself any further. However, if it will make you feel better, I'll put in a little good natured ribbing (you would call it poking) by saying that most Americans feel that the Boston Tea Party was a risk. Most Americans feel that we broke a rule or two in doing it. Most Americans feel that it was the right thing to do. The only difference is that you agree with the rule and we didn't. I think that makes you the better man. DS

I want to go to the question someone raised earlier (and I thought I was going to take the weekend off,) about "how do we get the council to open it's books ... or something along those lines. He/she was speaking of the financials. The best way is to call the office and make an appointment with whichever professional is in charge of finance. That's what you ask for when you call. Depending on the size of your council, it might be an appointment with the Director of Finance, Finance Director (yes, there is a difference,) Assistant Scout Executive, Field Director, or even the Scout Executive. Let them know your questions in advance as specifically as possible -- so they can do their homework prior to the meeting -- and then go meet with them. Every council in the U.S. is a registered not-for-profit corporation. Every council has to publish an annual report with financial information contained. Every council has to go through an independant audit every year and supply it to numerous sources. Most people, however, don't understand the intricacies of book-keeping and tend to fly off the handle if they see numbers without explanation. You can research your own council, or any other non-profit of significance by getting a copy of their IRS form 990, which are available on-line. However, even I can't read one of those without asking questions of the people who are responsible for those numbers. I don't advise you to use this method. Meet with a financial professional in your council and ask your questions. If they really are the things some folks accuse us of being, they would have been busted by now. DS

Thank you to all who have ever served the United States of America in the armed forces. Thank you to all who remember that Monday is the day we remember those who have fallen, each in our own way. I plan to spend a significant portion of Monday calling the veterans I have phone numbers for and thanking them personally. To the veterans who read this (I don't have your phone number,) but please accept the thanks of myself, my wife, and my family. Yours truly, Dave Steele

MiG -- 19: Welcome to the campfire. Feel free to post anytime. Hopefully others will see this post, but we seem to be pretty slow this Friday before Memorial Day. BTW -- I was never in the military although I desperately wanted to be. I usually spend a fair amount of time calling the people I know who are veterans of any branch of military service. I call them to say, "Thank you for your service. I look up to you and believe you are a credit to our nation." Or something along those lines that doesn't sound canned. In that vein, MiG -- 19 . . . Thank you for your service. It means a lot to us. I agree with you on the importance of proper uniforming. In fact, in all my years as a Scout, I can only remember one meeting when I wasn't in uniform. I was embarrassed. There was good reason I was in uniform, but I don't remember what it was. I do remember being embarrassed. As to the earlier poster who said that Scouts shouldn't be harrassed in the BSA (or something to that effet,) let me say that there's a fine line between harrassment and peer pressure. The difference is who is doing it and for what reason. If the adults in the troop (and the boy leaders) uphold proper uniforming as being important, the younger Scouts and other Scouts will apply pressure on all to be in uniform. That's not harrassment, it's peer pressure. The BSA uses it all the time. Even in Cub Scouting -- witness the Good Conduct Candle, etc. It doesn't really matter to me what the uniform of the BSA is, it's my duty to wear it properly. Of course, I'm on the payroll and it's in my employee handbook. So what's a guy to do? Well, I can dream a little -- if I had my way, for looks, the BSA uniform would be the 100% wool uniform of the 1950's that was modelet on the WWII uniform (with insignia on the collar. I'm speaking of the adult uniform, I have no idea what the youth uniform of the time looked like.) I also liked the Dough Boy look for all Scouts and Scouters of the early days of Scouting -- but we'd look silly wearing it today. I like the design of today's uniform -- not the construction, the fabric or the cost. The look is okay, but if I had my way, they would be of 100% natural fiber (wool for cool climates and linen for warmer) and less expensive. The dress uniform (which I'll admit relatively few on these boards have to wear) would be a pair of olive green pants (100% worsted wool) a kaki shirt, olive green tie, and Marine Corps style (again WWII) jacket with metal position logos on the lapels. Shoes would have to be black and shined nicely. That's my dreaming and scheming. Have a nice Memorial Weekend. DS

Excellent list, Joni. I especially liked #1. I do have to admit that you've given me some homework to do. I haven't really explored the net resources you've listed. I trust you. I'm just intrigued. DS

Eamonn: You did the right thing. Period. End of report. DS

To all: I want it noted for the record that Bob White is not quoting from the book and is not reciting national policy. He's stating an opinion and it is solid. I have, however, sold my position short -- well not, specifically my position, but those in similar positions in other councils -- short. Ultimately, the responsibility for all council functions falls on the Scout Executive professionally, and the Council President and Commissioner from the volunteer side. Those three positions make up the key three of the council and are responsible for supervising all local, district, and council functions. However, there are a whale of a lot of people in the middle and some close enough to the top, but not at the top, that they are skipped. I'm not contradicting Bob. He's right in his advice to TwoCubDad to approach the Scout Executive. He's right that the Scout Executive is a good business-person. I can't say businessman, because I know of at least one Scout Executive who is a woman. But I challenge anyone to find a Scout Executive who truly doesn't put the welfare of the Scouting program and youth above his or her own welfare. Another thing that must be remembered is that I've also never come across a Scout Executive who wasn't human. Some like to pretend that they aren't and that they have skins made of steel. (Not Steele!) It's a facade. If you meet folks kindly, you'll get farther than if you meet them with hostility. Throwing lightning rods may blow up a few trees, but it won't break the earth. Water, gently flowing, however, created the Grand Canyon. (Now that's Steele's Law #3) I do have to admit that I've been selling my own position short. Perhaps I may have given advice inappropriate to some councils. I suggested to Mark earlier that he have a meeting with his Scout Executive. Sometimes that is intimidating to people. Heck, I've been known to be intimidated by the Scout Executive's position sitting across the desk from me. He seems to hold all the cards. Seems to is different than holds, but intimidating nonetheless. In some councils, the Scout Executive concentrates on all facets of Scouting in his/her council. In others, there are others. I'm not changing my advice other than to say that you should find out who has the higher than camp director supervision over camping programs (or any other program that you have a problem with.) In some councils that will be the Assistant Scout Executive (me) or Director of Field Services, of Director of Support Services, or even a Senior D.E. You don't have to be in uniform when you meet with the person. (that's the only point I'll disagree with Bob White on this particular issue, although it would impress them.) You should have as many facts as you possibly can and present them in a non-emotional manner. I think you'll find a person who cares on the other side of the table and not the monster everyone would like to believe. DS. Good thoughts, Bob. I hope it helps. DS

Here's Steele's Law #2 and I'm about to break it. To quote myself, "when you find yourself in the path between two charging Rhinos -- dodge." Here comes my violation. I'm dodging, to be sure. I just want to answer the question that TwoCubDad asked, fair and square. Is collecting 15% up front for activities by councils common practice? Yes, and no. How's that for fair and square. I've been involved in councils that did it that way and in a council that did it by counting every photocopy, stamp, etc. against the event. It pretty much balances out. The concern I have is that TwoCubDad mentioned that volunteers are collecting money, taking the questions, licking the stamps, etc. He still isn't objecting to the 15% administrative fee, at least not out loud. I have a concern, though, about the volunteers collecting the registration fee and writing one check to the council. It isn't a concern for the council. It's a concern for the individual who is taking the money. What happens if the individual loses a check or someone decides to make a stink (for whatever reason) and accuse the volunteer of stealing the money. A huge majority of volunteers for any organization are compeletly honest, but if you're collecting the checks at home and then either sending them in to the office or (worse yet) deposting them into your account and writing one check to the council office, you have no protection. There is a council -- no matter where you are -- that will help with such matters. If a volunteer wants to keep close track of registrations (a good volunteer will) they should work with the council office personnel to develop a system that works for them. Registration fees and registrations should be sent to the council office. I think it's great that the volunteers in the current example are fielding questions, but do you really think that the last person or newest person in the communications chain isn't picking up the phone book, looking up Boy Scouts of America, and calling the council office with their questions? If the Scout office personnel can't answer the questions, we all look like idiots. Local customs vary. I'll always tell you to consult with your staff advisor and local office folks. They have their own answers based on local experiences. I also hate to see volunteers put themselves at risk. Financial stuff can be as risky as youth protection matters. It's best to leave some things up to the professionals. Now I'm getting out of the way. There's a couple of rhino's around here and I don't need to become peanut butter! DS