dsteele

In response to the original question, Bob White's first post was the answer I wanted to post, but he beat me to the punch. The simple answer is yes, but it seems some are looking for a bit more detail. If you look at an adult application, you'll see that for a unit scouter, two approvals are required. Either the insitutional head must sign or the charter rep as his/her designee. The committee chairman must also sign it. Their signatures indicate approval for that specific position. This is why another application is required when switching positions. No one can be forced to sign his/her approval for any reason. In the example given at the beginning of the thread, there could be a whole pile of reasons, and I don't have enough information to speculate. The question was more, can they do this, than why would they? The answer to the first part is a definitive yes. I don't have enough information to answer or even speculate on the second. Fscouter-- I like your posts. They tend to be very much on target from what I've seen. DS

KWC -- I don't think the council could afford me! Been there, done that, plus a bunch of other stuff. Now if you're looking for a Scout Executive, that's a different story (although I have to admit that I promised my wife and current Scout Executive two more years here.) However, in my case, at the end of those two years I'm going to be looking for a Scout Executive position. As Saltheart pointed out, however, looking for a Scout Executive position doesn't mean I'll get one that fast. It could take much longer than that. Considering there are only 52 councils in the country that I would have a good shot at and another 85 that I would technically have a shot at, but it would be a long shot. Of those 137 councils, there are 65 ( a little under half) that are in regions my wife and I have no desire to move to. One of the variables is whether or not there's a Scout Executive vacancy and the other biggie is whether it's a good fit for myself and the volunteers. This doesn't address OGE's concern that as soon as the guy is worth a darn, they move somewhere else. Please do think of it as a compliment that you supported your DE well and that he has earned a promotion. Sincerely wish him well and ask that he be as detailed as possible when he writes his check out report which will be given to the next guy. Then look up the thread I think I called care and feeding of your new DE and go from there. How long is the merry-go-round? If it's about three years, it's probably about right. One year for the DE to learn the ropes, one year to live with his/her mistakes and a third year to enjoy the success. Then it's time to take a bow and say goodbye -- if you want a promotion. In some cases councils have the money to make the DE a Senior DE and keep him/her in place for another two years, with additional responsibilities . . . but sometimes they don't. Saltheart -- Thank you for realizing that there are sacrifices we as professionals make for the sake of Scouting. There is another side of it, however. My parents have grown up, live and will probably die in the same general area. I simply don't understand that. It was nice spending 10 years in northeastern Michigan, but it was getting old toward the end. It was hard to uproot and move to the suburbs of Chicago, but at the same time, it was very exciting. And I got to keep my tenure and get a nice promotion -- new home, new duties, new experiences. Vastly different than Midland, MI. Four years later the moving truck showed up and we loaded up for Wisconsin. Completely different town, great people and cheese curds! My wife and I love this area and, if I can convince her and haven't found a nicer town by the year 2031 (my projected retirement year) we'll move back here. In the time between 2003 and 2031, I'm sure there will be many new homes, new towns, and new friends. If it's any consolation, OGE, I can tell you that a professional never forgets his first district and those wonderful volunteers who taught him/her the roots. I still call my first district commissioner (I dial his number from memory still) because of the friendship we formed in 1988-1989 (the time he was my District Commissioner.) Funny how we're both getting older. There are several volunteers I've worked with along the way that I stay in some contact with. Thanks for caring. It's good to come home from a long day and see this kind of thread. It was a long day because of a parent who's complaint started out by complaining about how his troop is too lax with advancement and dumb enough to hike on railroad tracks (he communicates only via email) to, by the time I got his last email the adult leader "pointed the boys in the path on an oncoming train." I haven't heard from him since I quoted from his three emails to the Scoutmaster (none of which mentioned an oncoming train) that I have copies of all his "stuff." I guess by definition, all railroad tracks are the path of an oncoming train, but it's a bit of a stretch. The DE did call the Scoutmaster and gave him a bit of trouble and he agreed it was the wrong thing to do. This guy won't be happy unless I conduct an inquisition and nuke the troop. Hasn't figured out yet that it ain't gonna happen. Sorry, I digressed again. Wish your old DE well and welcome the new one. That's what I meant to say. DS

I can provide an example of what Twocubdad is talking about when he refers to being able to drive to 8 troops within 15 minutes. Perhaps that district's experience can illuminate how we dealt with the issue. I served the district as it's executive (my title and responsibilities changed several times, but I was always primarily associated with the district,) for 8 years. There were always 19-22 troops and teams in this town of 30,000 people. That's a lot of troops for a town that size. It was a scouting town with a 38% Boy Scout density. I was not a heavily Mormon town and is in the midwest. In one of my early years, we tried to tie each troop to a pack or packs. It didn't work. In a town that small with that kind of market penetration, it all comes down to matching the philosophy of the troop with the philosophy of the boy and his parents. As Twocubdad points out, you can't do that without communication. Whether that communication is up to the district, the troop/pack, the charter partner, or just the word of mouth associated with a community that size it will happen. So, when the membership chairman and I tried to provide "feeder pack" (which is a midwest term) or "Brother pack" which sounds like an eastern term -- what you call it doesn't make much difference -- and direct traffic that way, we encountered resistance and realized the mission was foolish in our particular case. What we set out to do in successive years was to track graduating Webelos and find out which troops they joined. We also wanted to provide a list of troops to all graduating Webelos and allow the kids to make their own decisions (with parental and leader input, of course.) The first obstacle we ran into was the inability of the BSA system to identify second year Webelos. This was when our council was on the old Xenix system. It hasn't gotten any better with Scoutnet. I looked at the computer system (Xenix) and realized that the system let you run rosters and separate by date of birth. We were then able to get a list of "suspected" graduating Webelos. Scoutnet doesn't keep track of second year Webelos either, but it does let you run lists by the age of the kid -- so this plan still works. Then, once we had the "raw" list of kids of the right age, the memebership committee started calling Cubmasters to hone the list down and weed out kids with incorrect birthdates, held back a grade, etc. Once we had a clean (as clean as possible given human error) the membership committee and I did two things ... actually closer to three. 1) We put together a list of the graduating webelos and distributed it to all the troops. The rules were they could contact whichever kids they wanted to contact and invite them to visit the troop. Never mind feeder packs, never mind traditions, it was all for getting the Webelos to join a troop. From the other side, we sent the Webelos a letter (it happened to be from me) that was signed personally by me and included a list of all troops in the district and the Scoutmaster's home phone number as well as the meeting place, time and location. The youth were encouraged to shop around for the troop where they felt they fit the best. 2) We kept track of the transfer forms as they came into the office. Any kid who had not transitioned to a troop by September was called and asked why -- okay, so we often ended up asking the parent, but we checked into the answers. Our goal was to account for every graduating Webelos. And we did. 3) We had a joint Webelos/Boy Scout activity and told the troops that it was a recruit whoever you can night. Boy, were some Scoutmasters mad at me! I didn't mind because most of the angry Scoutmasters were the ones who had grown accustomed to getting whatever number of graduating Webelos without having to do anything -- like keep the program exciting for young men, giving them the chance to lead, etc. I'll admit that a couple of the weaker troops died because of this plan. One even went through a charter-partner forced unit leadership change because of it -- but the bottom line is that 80% of the graduating Webelos in the first year of this philosophy entered a troop. In the second year, we crossed over 87% of the graduating Webelos. Then, I'll admit, we took the process for granted and it fell back to the hight 70%'s. That was seven-5 years ago and I don't know how the district is doing today. My advice to those who want to make sure Webelos to Scout transition happens is: 1) Do your homework and find out who should transition 2) Realize that every troop has a slightly different personality and so do boys. Give them every opportunity to shop around. 3) Track transfer applications and follow up on the missing ones. 4) Through the commissoiner staff and district committes, make sure the recently crossed-over boys feel welcome and intrinsic in their new troop. DS

nldscout: Thanks for providing the voice of reason. I was beginning to think I was going to have to pull the plug on the membership of the two "honeys." Just kidding. However, I will answer in the Webelos to Scout transition thread. I've got some feelings about that. Thank you again, nld, dear . . . just kidding about the dear part. Glad Bob mentioned the no kissing . . . LOL (which doesn't mean, lots of love, Grey Eagle) ... DS

I agree strongly with Shemgren's post. Correct me if I'm wrong, however, Shemgren, but I believe you accidently left out the word NOT out of your qoute about den leaders paying expenses out of their pocket. I think you meant DEN LEADERS SHOULD NOT PAY EXPENSES OUT OF THEIR POCKETS. Other than that, you're right on. Also, just in case anyone thinks I only carried my parents money to the den meeting to pay my dues, let me clarify what I meant. I received an allowance from my parents. That's how I paid my den dues. Part of my brain (the part that is still a child) considers it money they "gave" me. In thinking about it more deeply, it wasn't them vacuuming the house every day, doing the dishes every evening, etc. and all for a buck a week. I guess that was "my" money. However, as a cub aged child, I didn't understand then that I was getting in trouble for using my money to buy candy when I owed it to the den . . . that just dawned on me now. Isn't it amazing that it sometimes takes so long for the lessons a parent imparts to come to grips with their child. Thanks, Mom and Dad! DS

I'm glad to see that the responsibility theme to dues came into play. It seems to me that it's quite often forgotten. When I was a Cub Scout (and Boy Scout for that matter) I was supposed to bring some small amount (I can't remember if it was 25 or 50 cents to each meeting.) I was never sure what it paid for, but it was a rule and I tried to follow it. I'm pretty sure my parents asked if they could write a check to cover it, but a wise leader pointed out to them that it should be "my money" and that I should carry it to every meeting. I'll never forget the time I used the quarter to buy "Now & Laters" grape. I didn't have it for the meeting and the den leader had a blank check box on her dues collecting envelope. Boy did I learn a lesson when my parents found out they still owed a quarter. I learned that sometimes when someone says, "It's not the money, it's the principle of the thing" that it really IS the principle. There is a BSA document that explains the purpose of dues and is largely ignored . . . even though it usually goes out stuffed in every re-charter packet. It's called the Pack/Troop budget plan. It calls for collecting dues and doesn't mention parents writing a lump sum check. Lots of packs/troops/crews do the lump sum thing, and it isn't against the rules. However, I think they're missing out on one of the lessons of Scouting for the sake of convenience. It's not the only tool, so I've never fought with a unit that doesn't collect dues and/or isn't on the official budget plan. But I do ask that you check into it and think about adopting it. The other side of the budget plan is based on parents paying the BSA registration fee only once -- when the boy first joins. After that it ought to come from dues and/or unit fundraisers. DS

I'll second Bob's post. I'm taking it that when he said "volunteers (and even professionals)" he meant that professional scouters have to follow the rules as well. That's exactly right. We have to be registered members of the Boy Scouts of America to maintain our employment. Learning for Life executives do not, but if they aren't they can't carry a commission as a BSA professional, only a certification as a Learning for Life professional. DS

fboisseau -- Thank you for brining up the Webelos den example. One of the points about two deep leadership that is quite often overshadowed by fears of child abuse allegations and it's barriers to abuse is that another good reason for having a minimum of two adults is that if someone gets injured, one adult can remain behind and run the meeting and the other can take care of the emergency. There's room in the BSA for using your head and not every rule mentioned in youth protection training is 100% about abuse. From what I've seen of the BSA (and I've seen a lot of it,) if you do your best to follow the policies and use your head in emergencies, you'll be taken care of. I look at the fact in this example that you had two deep leadership at the beginning of the meeting and used your options wisely in having your "second" adult take the kid in to get the care he needs while running the meeting for the other boys. Sometimes you have to make a judgement call. I was a Scoutmaster and had a kid who's parents were 1/2 hour late picking him up. My Assistant Scoutmaster had to leave and obviously I didn't know his parents were going to be late until he was the last one left. Sometimes you have few options and you have to select the best one. I was a bit nervous (considering I was a Scoutmaster and a professional scouter, I would have been toast if that kid chose to take the opportunity to accuse me of abuse.) By the way, our troop met in a church, there was no one else there but me and the Scout. I had the key to the building so I could lock up. My options were -- Make the kid wait outside in the 20 degree air Make me wait outside and let the kid have the run of the building (you don't know this kid. Bad idea.) Take the kid home myself -- and have the parents think I kidnapped him and have him be able to lie about me? Don't think so. What we did was call his parents, no answer. I then had him sit down and sat across from him against the other wall. He didn't know that I deliberately wasn't sitting next to him. He and I then had a scoutmaster conference and a nice little chat. When his father finally showed up to pick him up, he and I had a little conversation of our own. He was never late picking him up again. I'm not advocating minimizing the requirements by any means. I'm not saying you don't need two-deep leadership for meetings. I think there should always be two adults. Is it required for den meetings? I don't really know off-hand. Perhaps my stock answer when asked if a tour permit is required will illuminate how I feel about this stuff -- I usually say, "if you think you might need one, you should probably fill one out." I think it's better to take the extra time to file the proper paperwork than it is to find out the hard way that you were required to do so. It applies even more strongly for two deep leadership. Why would anyone not want a second adult around? I also don't think it's entirely bad to cancel a den meeting because none of the other parents or adults could make it. You might send a message that Cub Scouting is a family affair. DS

Matua: So just who is your charter partner? Or if you're chartered to the base, who is a non-base charter partner (or CO) in forum-speak? I'm curious. I've toyed with the idea of taking a direct-service SE job -- but have yet to run the idea by my wife, which means I'm not very serious about it. I've heard of guys who have taken such posts. They're good posts, typically, but moving back to the states is a real problem. Neither national nor the local council wants to pay the moving expenses (which is standard) and I've heard that the pro scouters who do move back sell their physical possessions and start over when they return to U.S. soil. I'm not interested in doing that, but . . . I have a friend who became Scout Executive of the Bahamas and the Virgin Islands. I'm the wrong race to be successful there, but I'd almost be willing to try. Except for the fact that Mrs. Steele instists on snow on the ground for at least part of the year. DS

Merlyn: I appreciate the honesty of the reply you directed to me several pages ago. You are not a member of the Boy Scouts of America, and (although I don't believe in your mission anymore than you believe in the policies of the BSA,) you are going about it in a straight-forward manner and with the passion I would hope to see from anyone who truly believes in what they are doing. I don't agree with what you're doing, but I believe in your right to do it. Rob Sherman, however, ticks me off. His methods and behavior in his personal life do not make me respect him in the slightest. Before anyone accuses me of only going by hearsay, let me tell you what I know of from personal experience. I have seen a photocopy of the Cub Scout application Rob Sherman filled out to get his son into Tiger Cubs in Buffalo Grove, IL. In fact, I might even have a copy around it here somewhere. I found it in the archives when I started in the council that covers Buffalo Grove. Let me not quite digress for a second -- most people when they fill out any application to join the BSA flip through the first page or two with all those words on 'em and go straight for the "fillin in" part. The part they just flipped through covers the joining requirements, including the Declaration of Religious Principal. It's been that way for as long as I can remember and possibly forever. Rob Sherman read it. And now we come to his son's application to join a pack -- Under where the parent is to sign is a paragraph that says something along the lines of "I have read, understand, etc." the joining requiirements. Rob Sherman did. Because he wrote "Except for the part about God." and signed his name. In the spot for parent occupation, he wrote, "President -- American Atheists Association." In my opinion he threw down the gauntlet. Not only was he, again in my opinion, not surprised when he received the letter denying the application, he was expecting it. A parent must sign for the Cub Scout because of his age. That parent's signature gives parental approval for the boy to join the Boy Scouts of America. I don't want anyone to think that the council denied the boy's membership. No. Rob Sherman did that by signing conditional approval -- and the BSA doesn't do conditional approval. Rob Sherman denied his son's registration. I also recall reading more than one article in the Daily Hearald (the suburban newspaper of Chicago) about Rob Sherman facing charges for battery on his 16 year old son. The quote from Rob Sherman was "I did it to put the fear of God in him." Mr. Sherman did a brief stint in jail for that one, by the way. His membership in the BSA would have been revoked on that action, even without the atheist stuff he'd pulled a couple of years before. I'm not suggesting you abandon your crusade, Merlyn. You have a right to it. Based solely your posts that I have read in this thread and what I know of Rob Sherman's behavior, I humbly say that I think he should look up to you rather than the other way around. DS TJ -- Thank you for your kind words. It sounds like you're in your own struggle with whether to "come out" or not. Struggle with the definition of "avowed" if you need some justification -- but it's plain to me that homosexuality is part of your self definition. Please don't tell me that I don't understand the membership policies of the Boy Scouts of America. Tell yourself that if you want, but do you honestly believe I would be charged with enforcing them if I didn't understand what they are? I don't intend to "hunt you down." That's not what we do. If, however, you and I were enjoying fellowship by the coffee pot at summer camp and were the best of friends, and you said, "I'm a homosexual." I would probably ask if you were sure. If the answer was yes, I would have no choice. I would be as humane as possible, but . . . I would be glad that you learned the values of Scouting enough to be honest and face the music. Think about the Dale Case -- the argument wasn't about removing his status as an Eagle Scout. No human can rob a man of his knowledge and values learned. One can, and sometimes should, take away membership in the Boy Scouts of America. TJ -- I hope you'll find your way through the dilema of valuing the BSA and it's stance on your sexual preference without causing the BSA to change to suit your desires. I believe you when you say they are the desire of others, but not all that many in comparison. Do what you feel is right. I would expect no less of an Eagle Scout. Um . . . you did say you're an Eagle, right? DS

TJ and Merlyn -- How you consider yourself good scout leaders while not living up to the BSA's standards of membership is beyond me. TJ, you are an avowed homosexual by your own admisison. Merlyn, you are a "lifelong atheist" by your own admission. If either of you were registered in the council I serve, you would both receive a letter informing you that registration in the Boy Scouts of America is a privelidge and not a right and that yours has been revoked. Regardless of how you feel about the standards of membership of the Boy Scouts of America at the present time, atheists and homosexuals do not meet them. My conscience has been bothering me for two weeeks on this topic -- that's when I stumbled across TJhammer's admission (the first I saw) in a different thread. I elected at the time to say nothing. As a professional not from his council I felt duty-bound to sit on the sidelines. I have since realized that my commission comes from the Boy Scouts of America and that I should at the very least point out that homosexuals and atheists, by BSA policy, are not granted registration. I suppose I could read TJ's 217 (to date) posts and Merlyn's 247 (to date) and, like a forensic pathologist, track down where they are registtered and their real names, but my conscience hasn't pushed me that far. Merlyn and TJ, I'm not judging your life or lifestyle. I am, however, willing and duty-bound to enforce the policies of the Boy Scouts of America as far as I am able. I'm not even asking you to stop posting on Scouter.com. That's not up to me, and, frankly, I think you both post some interesting points of view that are worthy of discussion and consideration. Scouter.com is not an official publication of the Boy Scouts of America, as it is pointed out in numerous references. However, as Saltheart pointed out in another thread, I can't take off my mantra as a professional scouter. I won't apologize for that, either. DS

Thanks for the info, Matua. I always appreciate learning a new phrase in an unfamiliar language. It's cool. DS

Bob: National can probably only verify that your unit dropped for a year 12 years ago. When a unit drops, that means it didn't recharter, period. There will be no records in the council service center (unless someone actually drove the process and filed an un-reregistered unit report -- a very rare thing in reality, although it's required.) When a unit drops, there is no charter on file. Usuaully the charter paprerwork never comes in at all. Because the unit has no current charter, it is not authorized to use the scouting program -- no advancement, no insurance, no nothing. I'm guessing that after a year, someone(s) re-started the unit. They (at the time) could have paid registration fees for everyone for two years and kept the tenure continuous, but many times, units choose to pay as if they were a new unit . . . and the tenure clock restarts at 0 months. I had this question come up on Friday. It was a slightly different situtation than what you have. In that case, the troop dropped in 1999 and is just now re-starting. They were chartered from 1965 to 1999 and now want their tenure restored. I told them that it can be done if they pay 4 years worth of registration and charter fees when they renew their unit's charter. Otherwise, the tenure clock begins again at zero. She was glad to get an answer, but didn't like the answer itself. You may have to help your office staff understand what I'm talking about. There is a manual for registrars, I forget the exact title. I've read it many times. The issue of buying back tenure is addressed within it. Don't go directly to the registrar -- go to your Assitant Scout Executive, Field Director, or whatever similar professional position in your council. They will be better able to help you out. DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

Matua: I'm unfamiliar with Hafa Adai. What does it mean? Thanks for the kind words. DS

Willysjeep, your wishes were granted in the past. Actually, I'm referring to the 100% wool uniform the BSA used to have available. All you have to do is find one in your size and you can be warm, as well as official. The BSA does sell a polyesther/wool combination uniform -- I like them and they are my uniform of choice -- but they are actually less warm than the poly-cotton worn by most Scouts and Scouters. You might try e-bay or call an old council scouter who was around in the '70s. There's a former board member of your council who is a friend of mine up there in Houghton who might be able to help you locate one. Contact me privately and I'll give you his name. DS

Hops is correct. The reference you're looking for can be found in National Standards for Cub Scout/Boy Scout Resident Camps #19-108B. On page 18, Standard M-45 reads, in part, "Each camper is provided with a minimum of 30 square feet of sheltered space for sleeping and storing personal gear." DS

First of all, remembering that some of us are responding to the queries of a Scout -- the ordeal is nothing you need to prepare for , 92-SPl. If you're elected, you're prepared enough. Take the stuff with you that's on the equipment list provided by the lodge and don't worry. The lodge is as much a part of the Boy Scouts of America as your council is. If your parents have questions, have them call the council service center and speak to the lodge staff advisor (a profesional.) As to the point KS (Korea Scouter) started out with . . . the point of his son preceeding him into the OA, let me say this . . . My dad was in the OA as a youth. He took his brotherhood the wekeend I took my ordeal. I thought it was really cool that he was "ahead" of me in the OA. It seemed only right. Some will know what that phrase means. A year later, I took brotherhood on my own. It was cool that my dad was there for the ceremony. Two years after that, at the ripe old age of 15 I took my vigil. It was really cool, but it was something I couldn't share with my father. My favorite night in the Boy Scouts -- and this is my 30th year counting my cub scout, boy scout, explorer, volunteer and professional experience in the Boy Scouts of America -- I can tell you, KS, that the time I hold the most dear was the night I served as Vigil Guide for my own father. My dad is still alive. I don't want anyone to think that this post is just a memorial. But I'll never forget how good I felt in the morning when I retrieved my Dad from his vigil site. He said he was proud of me. I'm not a father, so I have no idea what he felt. But I am a son, and I was proud enough of my old man to bust open . . . This Scouting stuff is great. It has a way of binding one to another more powerfully than any argument can drive us apart. Long story, Korea Scouter (and any others to whom it may apply,) but the moral is that if you can let your son truly preceed you into a safe enviornment and then follow through yourself, you'll be amazed at what it does for his self-esteem, as well as his accomplishments, and he'll be honored and proud to lead you through it when your time comes. I'll never forget the warm feeling of my fathers hand on my shoulder as we wandered through the pines of southwestern Michigan and I led him to his vigil site. Thanks for the prickling of this wonderful memory. Happy father's day . . .soon. DS

Scoutldr: You're welcome. Yes, 2031 is my anticipated retirement year. By then I'll be 65 years old and have served in the BSA profession for 43 years. That's a long time as far as I'm concerned. Especially since you can only pay into the BSA retirement fund (currently) for a maxmimum of 35 years. So, if I retire after 35 years of professional service, I'll be 57 years old. That will give me (if they open a window at that time, retirement of some portion of the highest of my last three years salary prior to my retirement. If I wait until my 65th birthday, I'll get 50% of my highest of the last three years employment salary on a monthly basis until I die. Which, for most profressional scouts I've seeen retire is about 60 days. The lack of stress kills them, I guess. Either way, I'll retire in 2023 or 2031. Either way, it seems to be a long way off. Until then, ya'll will have to put up with me in one form or another. I hope that's good news. DS

In another thread, Scoutleader questioned me on an implication I made that professionals transferring every three years is expected. I didn't mean to imply that, but I can understand why it was inferred. I'd like to clarify and maybe shed some light. For those that would like to see the reference, I'm going to quote from the topic "Wood Badge - A secret?" started by Eamonn. Here's the quote that inspired this thread (edited for brevity) "I know we're way off thread, DS, but you've peaked my curiosity. Your post implies that transfers every three years are expected. I nmy council, we've had some in place for 10-15 years . . . Their titles change from time to time, but from where I stand, they are still doing the same things . . . there have been some young whippersnappers come in with college diplomas still dripping with in, but they last maybe a year and were gone." Sctleader, I hope I didn't leave out parts of your question that you feel are important. If I did, please let me know and I'll attempt to answer them. Now I'm talking to everyone interested in the answers (as I see them.) Let's go to the three year part . . . 3 years is the minimum tenure requirement for all professional positions except Scout Executive. For a Scout Executive, it is five years. There are rare exceptions, but those are the stated minimums. That gives the professional time to learn the ropes in the assignment, make some changes, and learn from mistakes/live with successes (they're not necessarily opposites.) However, nothing says they have to move at the end of their minimum three years. Professionals can also quit on 30 days written notice, be fired, etc. I'll address that later. For example, I came to my present council as the Assistant Scout Executive. My boss (Scout Executive) and I have a deal that I will stay here for three years, minimum. Actually, there were extenuating circumstances and if I choose, I can leave before then, but that's a rare instance and does not apply to my example. Let's say that I decide that I'm happy to be this council's assistant scout executive and don't want to move, ever. There are a variety of reasons that I might not want to move -- kid in school, wife has a great job or is unwilling to move, love the area and have ties to it, etc., etc., etc. As long as my performance pleased the Scout Executive and the Executive board, I could stay. I would have to live with the fact that I've risen up the "corporate ladder" as far as I'm ever going to and that sooner or later my annual pay increase would be tied to the BSA salary chart adjustments and not my performance, but I could stay. Some professionals choose to stay in their current home towns and their current positions and serve honorably and well for many, many years. I love my current council, Scout Executive, home, and job . . . but I really want to be a scout executive. The rules are clear -- you can't become the scout executive of a council you're currently serving. This allows a couple of things -- a new scout executive will come into his/her position with new ideas and that my scout executive doesn't have to worry about me undermining him in an attempt to take his position and is free to teach me as much as he possibly can on my path (hopefully) to scout executive. So, yeah, I want to move as close to the three year mark as I can. If it takes me a year or two after the minimum to find a council I like in an area I like, so be it . . . but I'm one (so is my wife) that is willing to move. Now let me go to the other side of it. The changing of titles . . . When I started in this profession, I was in a 1/2 urban and heavily african american area and 1/2 rural and primarily caucasian area. In my 18 months tenure there, I really wanted to make an impact on the inner-city. I had some impact, but the fact is that I'm not african american and couldn't garner the trust of what I felt (and so did the council leadership) was the most important impact area of the distrcit. The rural part sang, the inner city part struggled. After 18 months, the district had achieved quality district in the first time in it's history, but I wasn't about to spend 18 more months running on ice. I went to the scout executive and explained my problems and requested to be moved the the suburban district in the council. So, I was then transferred to another district. Why? It was a better fit for the council and for me. The council hired an african american to serve my "old" district and he led them for 8 years (with a variety of titles, but I'll get to that in a moment) and they achieved quality district for the next 8 consecutive years. They missed it the year he left to become a Field Director in another council. I served for 8 years in my "new" district and the district achieved quality every one of those 8 consecutive years. The minimum 3 years tenure was not broken when I moved there as a district executive after 18 months in my old district . . . because I was still a district executive. At 36 months (three years) I became a Senior District Executive. Essentially the same job, but in addition to my DE duties, I was given some council assignments as well as a pay increase and an increase in classification. As far as my district/unit folks knew, I was still doing the same thing, but with a new patch on my shoulder. From those positions, if the pro is doing the job right, you really don't see a difference. A couple of years later, under a new scout executive, it was coming near time for me to move. I really didn't want to move, but had just gotten married and wanted a promotion. So, with 6 months to go on my "minimum" tenure, he offered to make me a senior district executive, multiple person. It was a horrible title which has now been replaced by district director. I took it. As far as my district/unit folks knew, it was just a change of title and I was still doing the same things. Actually, it meant I was suddenly the boss of the new DE in a neighboring district and his "numbers" and mine became my job standard. If he dropped a ball, I had to pick it up or suffer the consequences. I didn't have to move and had my eye on hopefully someday becomming the finance director for the council. The Scout Executive wanted that for me, too. After another not quite three years, the finance director had been on a couple of scout executive interviews (which was the only position he would consider moving to attain,) and not getting the job, he decided he would stay in his current position until his daughter graduated from High School. The Scout Executive wanted me to stick around and the council was doing well financially, so he made me a District Director and part of the management cabinet of the council. My wife was happy with her teaching job and I was happy with the area and really didn't want to uproot and move. The SE and I knew that my taking the promotion would tie me to the area for another three years (which I didn't want. Three years sounded like a long time to me -- it meant that I would still have the district as my primary responsibility for year #7 to #10. We agreed that, if the finance director was still there when I hit year #8 in the same district that it would be time for both of us to "suck it up" and move. That's what happened. Based on the council's finances and professional needs, there was no more room for me to move up. So my wife and I packed up our bags and moved to another area in the fall of 1998. Moving wasn't as bad as we thought. We made new friends and enjoyed living in a different part of the country. Four (it could have been three) years later, we decided to try another part of the area. I wanted to be an assistant scout executive, and quite frankly, had tired of the "old" area and so had my wife. It was time to go somewhere that reminded us more of home, but different. We tried our hands in Wisconsin and that's where we are now. I started exactly one year ago today as assistant scout executive and love it. But I can't let go of my desire to serve youth as a scout executive. Unless a rule is bent, which largely depends on my current scout executive's willingness to let me go and my wife's willingness to move, we're looking to be here until at least June 1 of 2005. If something happens and my wife and I decide to stay here until I retire in 2031, as long as my performance meets the satisfaction of the scout executive (which will change before 2031, I guarantee it) and the executive board I can stay. But I'll never be scout executive. We make choices. One final quick bit -- a brief dissertation on the district executive who's ink just dried or is drying on his diploma . . . Most of us start that way. Few survive. How does a young DE fresh out of college survive? 30% guidance from his/her BSA supervisor, 30% support from his/her volunteers, and 40% commitment/drive on his/her part. Questions? DS

I think that this is an important question, but that it shouldn't take over this particular thread. I also think a lot of people don't take Wood Badge because they have unanswered questions and I believe the people who post here have either valid answers or valid question. So, sctleader, let's move your questions to another thread. I'll start if immediately under council relations and title it, professional tenure. Would you join me? And any others with this type of question? To quote Dr. Craine on Fraiser, "I'm listening . . ." DS

Excellent post, Barry. I don't have any children, but have had the experience of turning a troop over to someone else. I'm going to save your post. I felt a wash of emotions as I read it. Thanks for the memories . . . Dave

First of all, to Mr. Robby -- I think you're right on target about one of the keys to a successful relationship between volunteers and professionals. I agree that many of us will move on (either to another council, another profession, or shot, depending on performance and the ability to maintain good relationships. I also think that those professionals who try to keep everyone happy by never giving bad news are better off in politics than professional scouting. My personal theory is that people would rather hear a real answer, even if they don't like that answer, than fluff that turns out to be worthless or even false. I would also like to add (for the masses) that there's another part of the relationship that is crucial for it to work. And that is to remember that the professional scouter, who may be younger than you, does work for the BSA all day, every day and has a knowledge curve that is very, very steep. The volunteer with several years of unit experience may not know more about the kinds of things a 22 year old D.E. works with every day. The council-level scouter who has been in just about every position as a volunteer may not know as much as his/her Scout Executive who has been working on Scouting matters for 60 hours a week (a low average) for 15-35 years. Eamonn -- Thank you for the well-wishes for our anniversary. We did both meet our wives at Scout camp and I think both knew what they were in for. At the time I proposed, I offered to resign. We'd been together for several weeks at the time and she had a pretty good idea what she was in for. She said she was proud of my profession and would always support me. She's never said a word against the hours . . . as long as I don't ask her to attend Blue and Gold banquets and don't introduce her publicly on those occassions when we must attend as a couple. A very private person is Mrs. Steele. The two blackbelts she has earned aren't being used against me, but do make a powerful incentive to behave She has one in jujitsu and one in kyu kido. She's working on a third in judo. It's kind of nice, my English friend. If I hear a noise in the house, I'm not getting out of bed Why deprive her of the practice? Actually, with her taking the classes, she's away about the same hours I am. We have no children, so it works out. I didn't need to save her some cheese -- Eamonn, it grows out of the ground here in Wisconsin -- but I did buy her a nice dinner. She had a wonderful steak skillet, and I had Alaskan King Crab legs. Much better than being a house apart last year due to the move. It's never easy to uproot from council to council and house to house. However, we look forward to the adventure as long as we get at least 3 years in one place. I can't believe one year has already passed. In another two, it'll be another move to another council. It's exciting, scary, and very educational. You, Eamonn, have Her That Must Be Obeyed -- I have Her That Taught Me (the hard way) to Duck!. Thanks again for the well wishes. You're right, I have a lot to learn in this marriage thing. Whoever thought "school" could be so much fun! DS

Photoscout -- no need for apologies. There was no offense taken. I'm a little hyper-sensitive to the "let's fire the Scout Executive (or substitute professional title) mentality that I've heard quite often in my tenure. I know you're not guilty of this type of mentality, but I've heard that type of comment often enough (usually not directed at me, but every once in a while . . . ) that I try to stamp it out where I can. Please accept my apologies for pointing it at you without provocation. Don't get me wrong, sometimes professionals screw up badly enough that they should be shot. I've shot a couple myself. On another note, I just came back from a Wood Badge Staff Development session. I have a full plate as Assistant Scout Executive, and can't really attend every minute of every staff development session as I wish I could. Before I was married, I would. I was only there for about an hour. Now, what most of the first-time staffers don't realize is that it took me an hour to drive there, spent an hour there, and an hour to drive home. As far as I'm concerned, that's three hours of working time -- meaning time spent away from my wife on our 11th anniversary. Why did I bother? I wanted to send the message to the staff that the council believes that what they're doing is important. I wanted to see the course director specifically, to see if there was anything I can do to support his efforts to put on the finest course available. I wanted to see the staff and their progression toward being the unified team of trainers they need to be in order to put on the finest training course possile. Did I accomplish that in an hour there? I don't know. I like to think I did. The course director appreciated my "stop over." I was able to see the staff debate a fine point in the syllabus, which showed me that to a person they care very deeply about what they are presenting. I have visited all but one staff development (I missed the one that happened the day of my father-in-law's ultimately fatal accident.) Of course, there are rewards for me, personally, to such visits. One of the most powerful is the knowledge that I, in a small way, am part of what will be a very powerful experience in the lives of many volunteers. I hope you're one of them (whoever you might be.) Another is that I am able to see, in a very short period of time, volunteers from several different councils, vocations, education levels, etc. all coming together to help improve the lives of youth through the Scouting program. Very cool! I was also able to nibble on a piece of very fine Wisconsin yellow cheddar for free! Very good! And I'm home in time to take my wife to a nice restaurant for dinner. Like I said, it's our eleventh anniversary. On our tenth, we spent the night in different hotels. It happened to be the day that the movers showed up to move me from my last council to my current one. When my wife left the house at 6:30 AM, she knew she was never going to spend another night there. The movers showed up at 9:00 AM and the house was empty by 3:00 PM. My wife, by the way, is a saint. She had never been to my new council headquarters city (she took a black belt test the day I went house-hunting here. I had a list of what she wanted in a house and power of attorney.) She saw the house and the town and area for the first time, the day the movers brought our stuff here. Somehow I got a bit farther afield than I wanted to. My wife can have whatever she wants for dinner tonight. Nothing is too good. I'm just lucky she likes the area and likes the house. As to Wood Badge being a secret, I think the only secret is asking enough questions of enough people . . . including the Scout Executive. I also think a dose of faith -- although not as much as Mrs. Steele demonstrated -- is important. Everything we do is, and oughta be, for the good of our youth. If we can learn from it along the way, it's an added bonus. DS

That's what I thought/hoped you meant. It makes sense to me. I just didn't want someone to get the impression that the BSA is in the habit of sweeping bad stuff under the carpet. I also think the nail was nailed when it was said that it should be reported directly to the Scout Executive (or professional responsible for youth protection in your council.) DS

Eamonn: I'd say it's past your bed-time, but I know better. As well, you know it's nowhere near my bed-time, even on a Friday when I have to drive to a Wood Badge staff development tomorrow. However, growl I had to take a few notes to be able to address your points and will now proceed to do so. I have no umbrella in my possession, I'll have you know, but I'll do my best to proceed anyway. (aside: isn't it fun to play this late at night?) I'll make sure I'm in my coffin before daybreak. On the topic of task of the DE . . . it varies by DE and by district. Judging by the direction it sounds as if your district is heading, your DE should be very busy pulling together the resources and tools your volunteers need to accomplish their jobs. A DE in this kind of district doesn't worry about making FOS calls, he/she worries about getting the lists to the people who need them and picking up the cards as soon as they are worked. It's a great position to be in. They become the advisors and facilitators they're supposed to be. In districts that focus purely on events and programs, the DE, to keep their job, has to raise money, identify and recruit volunteers when they have time, form new units all by themselves, answer day-to-day questions, and generally "do" for volunteers what should be done "by" volunteers for the youth we all serve. I can tell you, having served in both capacities that I'd rather be the servant working by buns off to give people the tools and information they need to do their jobs than the person working his/her buns off trying to do everyone's job to save their own employment. Neither one is easier than the other. One feels good (the servant) and one is a path to failure (the general runner-arounder.) I can also tell you, and I'm writing to everyone now, that it's very difficult to make the switch. Sometimes a District Chairman has to whap the DE upside the head and say, "Hey, WE'RE doing the job! Help us to do it and get out of the way." I heard that speech directed at me for the first time from an 8th level Manager at General Motors and again (professionals are like cats -- you can train us, but be prepared to do it again, and again, and again . . .) by a senior manager of the Dow Chemical Company. Fortunately, I was smart enough to listen to them and change my style. I congratulate Eamonn on the progress with the nominating committee. The process does work and it can work very well. My advice to those who are new to it: 1) Do not allow the committee to be made up only of people with Scouting experience. Involve the community leadership if you want to draw people from "outside." 2) Do not let it be comprised of only men. There are plenty of very knowledgeable women with a love of Scouting who can add dimensions and names men would not necessarily think of, 3) demand that your DE provide input of names and desired attributes for the position. Back to Eamonn -- I think the desire to go with your DE on CEO visits is admirable, but not necessarily advisable. The CEO visit is designed to be professional (meaning paid) to professional (meaning institutional head -- in large part churches,) visits. Let those guys "talk turkey." You should ask during key threes how they are going and feel free to pressure the DE to do them. It is a requirement of Quality District and then falls under your purview. But it's a DE thing. I would suggest that if you want to impact the participation (and you're right on, my friend) of Chartered Orgaization Representatives, that you visit the COR personally and explain their role. That's not the DE's job. However, they are part of the District Committee and that falls under the District Chairman. Now we come to the prickly part of your post, Eamonn. The district vs. council part. I'll try to explain it as best as I can, but the answer is likely to upset some people. I think in your post, you're referring to tasks rather than policies. The council says you have to do/accomplish something and the district doesn't want to. Well, in that case, the district needs to remember its place. Whoa! I'm leaving in the above few lines and want you all to know that I just re-read Eamonn's post. I'm glad I did. I left in "the district needs to remember it's place" because, upon re-reading, it's apparent that Eamonn did and does. I'll change my approach. By that I mean the approach I was taking in this thread, but not the approach I have taken in several other threads. If your district feels like you're being dictacted to from "above," for God's sake, talk to someone at the council level. I said talk to, not shout at or make demands. In the district chairman's case, he/she should go to the Vice President of Operations or Director of Field Service, Field Director, Assistant Scout Executive, or Council President. Explain your concerns and ask why. Listen carefully, even if you don't get an answer you like. Be sure to explain your side of the story in as unvarnished fashion as possible and give as many facts as you can. I can assure you they will hear the other side of the story and any varnish will tarnish (hey, I made a rhyme! Watch out, Eamonn, I'm warming up!) In all cases, pressure should stay volunteer to volunteer and professional to professional, but sometimes you have to go to the professional staff advisor and say, "Why is this being done? If I understand, I can help. But if not, why should I?" Now, I do have to say that if your DE is joining others in complaining about "council" telling us what to do, you'll probably lose the DE soon. It's the same as in any company . . . when a salesman (actually insert whatever title you want here,) starts griping about the people who sign their paycheck to their clients, he/she is going to stop selling the product soon. Whether by choice on their part or the choice of their employer is immaterial. You're in for a change. If your DE starts complaining to you about "council." Ask them to stop. Cover your ears if necessary. I've been supervising professional scouters for 10 years now. I don't mind them occasainally busting my chops if they don't want to do something, but I become a mad bull if I hear they're out in the field bad-mouthing the council that prints and signs their paychecks. Did I answer the question? Feel free (anyone) to throw out more. In the interim, I think it's gotten to be my bed-time. Goodnight all. DS