dsteele

I hope I was right about the standards I was looking at a copy of them when I typed my answer. Twocubdad -- I like the idea of providing a program to younger scouts who help out at Day Camp. DS

The National Standard, M44 (M is for mandatory) reads "All day camp staff members must be at least 14 years of age. Den chiefs under 14 may only atttend day camp if they are serving as a den chief with their natural den or pack." No mention of rank requirements, but you should check with your local council. There may be a local rank requirement. DS

I'm watching Condoleeza Rice on Meet the Press at this very moment. I think the only reason it occurred to me that she's an Afican American woman is this thread. I am so proud to be an american when I see her. I find her incredibly intelligent and a strong leader of our people. She is an excellent example of an american. I don't care about her race or gender. I know that some would be against her because of her gender. Some would be against her because of her race. Some would be against her because President Bush chose her. But, I, for one, think she's a great example and see only a National Security Advisor doing the job. Is that so much to ask? It's not race that makes her good or bad, it isn't gender, it isn't looks . . . it's the mind and the thoughts behind it that make her great. I don't understand this racism thing. I truly don't. Not that I have any desire to understand it. I just wish everyone was as ignorant of it as I am. DS

Now you're talking! The risk is minimal and the rewards, long-term, to the boys are great. Just a thought . . . DS

Fscouter -- Cool! DS

FScouter: Are you secretly me and I don't know it? I'll say no more and hope the thread continues. I hope we all agree that doing nothing is not the answer to the question. DS

I agree with Trail Day. I guess I'm luckier than I thought. I honestly can't think of a single race on this earth that I have an ounce of hatred for. There are people I don't like, but most of those feelings have to do with their behavior rather than skin color or religion. Politically I'm a conservative. I tend to lean to the right even when I'm walking (which is odd for a left-hander (the minority of the 21st century. Our time will come!!!! ) However, I guess I'm not particularly tribal in the sense that I prefer the company of white men. I guess the closest I've come to hate (I prefer loathe -- it's sticker, sneakier and sounds better) is when I met a man on a train who told me he's a white supremicist neo-nazi. This was in 1987 and I was in my early twenties. I let him go on for a bit of a tirade. He finally asked me my name and I told him it was Hiram Goldburg. The look on his face was priceless. Then I walked into another car and found a different seat. I don't remember if the people I sat with in my new seat were african american, palestinian, indian, native american, whatever. It made no difference. They weren't nazis (to my knowledge) and I do remember that we had a nice chat. I don't think I would have been too upset if the nazi had been hit by the train. Does that make me a racist? Could be, I suppose. The Israeli and Palestinian (I'm pretty sure I just mis-spelled both and I'm sorry) arguement seems to jump out in this thread. I'm not convinced that it's a tribal issue. I think there are legitimate beefs on both sides that perpetuate. Somehow the chain of violence needs to be broken, but it's way beyond my skill level to do so. If there's a way I can help solve the problem, I wish someone would let me know what it is. All I can think of is to pray for both sides . . . and I'm doing that much. DS

Interesting . . . These same issues apply to district/council activities. The only difference is that of scale in numbers of people and dollars. I hadn't thought to apply the comparison to a troop campout to a council event until I read this thread. It's true that if you're paying attention, you do learn something new every day. If I had a nickle for every refund request made after the council has paid for food, site rental, t-shirts, etc. and a kid backed out. Last year I had a man literally yelling and screaming in my face because his kid decided to drop out of the Philmont trek at the last minute (and not for any medical or personal reason other than he didn't want to go.) We had paid his Philmont fee, train ticket from Wisconsin, etc. There was no one to take his place. I think we ended up refunding the portion of the trip that he paid for that we didn't spend on him . . . which was about $90 out of $855. The man was/is still mad at us. DS

Bob: I hope you were kidding about me not liking you. Of course I like ya, dude! I'm just not about to call you honey! Anytime you want to come to a council I serve, or need me to serve a council where you are, just let me know. If I can do it, I'll be there. Mrs. Steele says anywhere in the Midwest is fine. Northeast Region would take some convincing, but it's doable. Western Region (as long as it's not California) I could possibly persuade . . . Southern Region (first of all, they wouldn't let me in, but that's a different story) is not on the map of places for us to go . . . Back to the topic -- Is it just me, or do Scouting topics -- either online or in actual meetings -- seem to take longer when we're all doing what I call "vehemently agreeing?" Not that I'm trying to end this topic, I'm not. I think it's a good one. It's just an observation. DS

Bob: Thanks for the input. I can understand how you feel about essay tests, but if I made a true/false of a real life scenario, it wouldn't be real life. At least, not my life. I wish I had the luxury . . . the true/false and/or yes/no, rarely cross my desk. Well, maybe they do and I just don't realize how often because I usually don't have to think about those. Anywho -- on with the essays (hopefully.) DS

Bob: I concurr. Good answer. Although I do have to admit I don't know a darn thing about coaching baseball. I'm not against the game, I just struggle to understand why, if the goal is to get back to where you started, you bother to run in a circle to get to where you were in the first place. besides, I'd rather watch a string burning contest on television than a baseball game any day. The baseball game is, to me, as exciting as watching the grass grow. String burning involves fire. Hee-hee-hee. DS

Oh yeah -- TwoCubDad, I forgot a detail. Sorry. A check for $100 made it with the man's note. To the council, the $100 covered his FOS pledge. As implied by the note, however, to the donor, it was a second $100. Things in real life, as you've probably noticed, are rarely black and white or cut and dry. It's possible the donor is lying about the $100 and the man at the door, but why would he? Looking for a $200 tax deduction for $100. Possible, but hardly probable. I'd like to think that it's improbable. It's also possible but improbable that someone would show up at his door asking for money in full uniform. I can tell you that something is wrong here and determining what is wrong is as much a part of what should be done as the actions taken afterward. So what would you do? Sherlock Holmes said, "when you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, is what happened." I'm no more a trained investigator than you are, possible less so, but that's life. What would you do? DS

Twocubdad . . .this is Hal (or at least the Hal of this situation.) Yes, it is possible that someone is running a con on the BSA and this donor. In our area recently a woman was convicted of embezzlement of over $50,000 for fund-raising for MS when she had no part in the organization that was supposedly getting the funds. It was a high profile case and made the papers. It is improbable that the FOS chairman from heaven or any other place solicited the money -- it's not his M.O., but we don't know that for sure. Now you know everything I know about the situation. The question of "what would you do?" remains open to all. Twocubdad suggests I contact the donor. I have placed a call to him and only gotten his teenage daughter. Don't know if he's received the message. Please feel free to use conjecture at will and use some "what if's." I don't know how this story is going to end and don't have any information that I haven't already placed in the previous post. Feel free to take some guesses. It's SimCouncil . . . It's possible that what we have here is a unit FOS chairman who feels it is his duty to collect the payments of his family FOS givers and pass them along to the council -- although we don't have anyone who has agreed (to us in the office including the DE) to do that. It's also possible that someone is ripping off the donors and muddying up the name of the BSA. We don't know. Part of this scenario is figuring out what's going on. So how would you handle it? What resources would you use? What would you do if you did suspect it's a scam? How does the Scout Oath and Law come into play? When do you decide to turn it over to law enforcement authorities, if ever? Do you do it yourself, or turn it over to a DE to do? What role to volunteers play, or should they play? Play is probably a poor choice of words, but I can't think of a better one at the moment . .. perhaps, be involved is a better term for the word I've used. DS

Matua -- Hafa Day -- I'm not being sarcastic, I just can't remember how to spell it. You've got it. Without "is" there is nothing. It doesn't mean, "try" it doesn't mean "someday" it doesn't mean "practice" and it doesn't mean "yesterday." It's what we are. I envy you the opportunity to do the Scoutmaster's minute. It's a great moment in Scouting. If done correctly, everyone has something to reflect on. DS

I don't tire easily, but I'm tired of this topic. Can't we get back to the stuff we can change or build upon? I'll do my part. I'm outta this particular thread. 11 pages is enough for me. In the interim, we've been kind of neglecting the people who don't post but look to us who do for information, insight and advice in areas they can use it for the betterment of their programs for youth. In the words of the old joke, "Break's over. Back on your heads!" At least for me it is. Following is voluntary. DS

That's the story. Thanks for retyping it. DS

Today a Scout was rescued from a cave after he fell off a ledge and was trapped for 16 hours. It's hitting the news now, and I happened to read several newspaper accounts earlier this afternoon and want to thank some people and congratulate all. First -- thanks God, that the young man was rescued relatively unharmed. Thanks to the boys, who remained calm and did all the right things. Thanks to the leader who happens to be a police officer who went for help (it took him an hour to exit the cave and he was in a hurry) Thanks to the Scout who stayed as close as he could to his injured fellow scout and kept him calm. Thanks to the leaders who followed all BSA policies and protected themselves as well as the boys. Thanks to the emergency response teams that pulled him out. Thanks to the scout himself who remained cheerful and brave even though he must have been frightened and hurt. Thanks to his father who traveled a distance to be there when his son was pulled out. Good job all around! DS

I agree. That's why I was so hopping mad about Bill Clinton's definition of the word "Is." A Scout is ... Powerful stuff. It's also stuff my mother didn't hesitate to use as ammunition when I screwed up. It also amazes me still (after 15 years of professional service) how many old guys who were Scouts 40, 50, 60, even 70 years ago for a couple of years can still recite the Scout Law to me -- whether I want to hear it from them or not. 12 equal points -- but without A Scout is . . . they're empty words without more than a token substance. Alright . . . time to get off the soapbox and watch the national news.

I like these forums very much. It's a great way to get good advice and opinions from a large group of good people who care about the BSA (meaning all of us as a whole.) I encountered a situation this morning and it's a new one for me. I thought I would share it with you folks and see what you would do if . . . You're the Assistant Scout Executive. It's Friday morning and as you take your first sip of coffee, you see on the fund-raising secretary's desk, an FOS statement with a post it note on it from the donor. The post it note says, "I'm a bit confused. A man came to my door in full uniform asking for money and I gave him my FOS payment of $100." The District Executive (DE) sees you looking at the note and says, "I don't know what to do about that. I don't know of anyone who would have gone to his door and asked for money. No one in my district would have done that." The Scout Executive hears the exchange and makes eye contact with you. He gives you a grin because he knows you'll handle it and goes back into his office. So what do you do? Anyone can play . . . for clarification if you don't know, an assistant scout executive is the guy who does/handles everything the Scout Executive doesn't want to. This falls into that category. When this plays out, I'll let you know what actually happens. Think of this (for your part) as playing SimCity, or SimCouncil if you will. You'll also be helping me out with a little insight. For you this is a little hypothetical situation. For me it's another day. DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

That's a great point. The chartered organization holds the charter for the unit, the unit does not hold the charter for the organization. In other words, how the charter partner (or CO) wichever you prefer, raises and spends it's money is none of the troop's business. Not that you can't know, but you don't have to worry about it. If they want to buy something for or give money to the troop, you don't need to be concerned about where it came from. Unless you are indeed chartered by drug dealers, etc. One caveat is that the charter partner can't hold a "Bingo Night for Boy Scouts" or use the BSA name like that without permission, even if the proceeds are going to the troop. They can't raise money using the name of the Boy Scouts of America without permission from the Boy Scouts of America. If they normally hold a raffle or a bingo night, or even hold a special one and choose to give the proceeds or part of the proceeds to their troop, that's their choice. The other side of the coin, however, is that it is the business of the charter partner (if they choose to do so) to have a say in how the troop raises and spends it's money. But that's a different issue. DS

KWC -- Thanks for the meter-reading. You're right that it wasn't my intent, but I appreciate the compliment. I agree that it's probably time to start a new troop. The timing will work out well if the people involved decide to do it. jbroganjr -- I can tell you that if you called my council office today and said you were interested in starting a new troop as soon as possible, you probably wouldn't be able to hang up the phone before your doorbell rang and there was a DE on the other side of it with a new unit application, five or more youth applications and five or more adult applications in hand. He/she would probably let you keep the pen, too! Okay, so that's a slight exageration, but not a huge one. It's a different topic, but sustained growth in membership in a district/council comes from new units. The BSA tries to motivate district executives to start and support new units. There are many ways, and one of the more positive is the Chief Scout Executive's Winner's Circle -- with a nice prize and lots of glory. To earn it, a professional must have a 2% gain in membership and a 2% gain in units on 6/30/2003 vs. 6/30/2002. If I were a betting man, I would put money on the odds that your district or council is very concerned about hitting those goals and the hour swiftly approaches. Starting a troop sounds like a huge undertaking -- it isn't really. It's probably easier than breaking into what sounds like a clique and living with the resulting fall-out for the next several years. And when super scouter's membership dwarfs the old troop's membership . . . there will be more Boy Scouts in the area than there were before. I don't see the downside in that. DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

Fscouter-- Daggone it! You are hearby sentenced to come to my council and assume the (volunteer of course) duties of whatever you want to do! I'm trying to say that I like your answers. Especially the implication that if people won't come to the trainers, the trainers need to go to them. I've advocated that position for years and have done it myself, but it seems like a lot of people are unwilling to do so as trainers. Your post, to me at least, does not imply that the training should be watered down or have parts eliminated from the syllabus. Nor does it advocate sticking to the syllabus above all else. Nor does it advocate adding stuff the participants don't need or aren't looking for. Correct me if I'm wrong . . . but I think we're on the same page. I think we need to be "customer aware" when delivering training. To say, if I don't have 16 participants, we're not going to hold the training, may address budgetary and logicistical issues, and are not illegitmate, but that doesn't mean we can't find another way, even if it's inconvenient for us as trainers, to do what's important in getting the leaders who work with Scouting youth the necessary training to do their jobs. Way to go and good job. DS

Silver-Shark: I apologize. I was caught up in answering the question and neglected to pass along my sympathies on the loss of your unit commissioner. I also confess that I was dodging what I was afraid would be a painful memory, but one that, upon reflection, turned into a good memory. When I was serving my second district, I had an ADC who was very passionate about his belief in Scouting. It was a two-county district that had 5-7 units in one county and 43-47 in the other (depending on the year.) I relied very heavily on my friend the ADC for the smaller county. He was the first one to slap me upside the head if he felt I was negleting "his" units. I appreciated his candor and appointed him my V.P of Bull in my little cabinet/cadre of extra-close volunteers. We bounced each other pretty good, but had a wonderful relationship. The last time I saw him was at the council dinner on a Saturday evening. He berated me because someone had read the charter partner as being a Veterans of Foreign Wars instead of the American Legion for one of "his" units. Monday morning he was found dead in his car of a heart attack. He had his nitro pills in his hand, but they never made it to his mouth. He was delivering his charter packets when he died. I know, the story sounds terrible so far. Let me hasten to the pleasant part . . . of a sort, that is. I've said he was a dedicated scouter. I mean that he made me look like a casual observer of the scouting program. I had heard that he was going to be buried in his uniform. Like many other scouters (volunteer and professional) I arrived at his funeral in time for the viewing in full uniform. He was in uniform in the casket. His wife and son walked to the casket with me. Gail was in his uniform complete with his wood badge neckerchief and woggle, but no beads. His wife was on my left and his son was on my right. I looked at his wife and asked, "Where are his beads?" He would never have been caught without his beads. Ever. She replied that he was going to be creamated and that she wanted to keep the beads. I didn't even think about my next actions. I took the beads off my scrawny chest and handed walked over to the funeral director. I whispered to him that they needed to be placed on Gail before the cremation so he could go with full honors. I didn't mean for it to be a big deal to anyone. In my mind, I could get another set of beads for about $9.00 as a re-order. It was a lot bigger deal to Gail's wife and son. In retrospect it's a big deal to me. Now it means that I helped a fantastic Scouter go into the next life the way he wanted . . . head held high and wearing the beads he so richly deserved. I miss him and look forward to the day we can see each other again. A little off thread, but it felt good to tell the story. It also means I should call Gail's wife. I haven't talked to her for a couple of years . . . DS

OGE: You're right on track. In our council, for example, the largest district has 51 units and raises it's FOS of $30 some thousand dollars. It does it's share in popcorn and wreaths, united way, and in camp attendance. It's the perfect size for an entry level district executive. However, it's a little too small for a Senior District Executive. Our council is small and the other two districts are only slightly smaller than the district I have in mind. I wish it were different and we are striving to grow to the point where we have room for a Senior District Executive -- but until that happy day, if it ever comes, I'm afraid I'll never have a position in my council higher than my own or equal to my own, to even be able to allow a DE to have an opportunity for a promotion within the council, let alone the district. I, and hopefully the volunteers, then have a duty to help that DE become the best they can be in about three years and then pass their skills on to another council. If they want to stay here forever, they'll be a DE forever . . . or until we have the membership and raise the money to change our professional structure. On the one hand, it's sad to lose them. On the other, I think we can be proud of the training and experience we send to scouts and scouters in other areas. I look at it as "the kid has grown up." There's a tear of sadness mingled with pride. DS

TJ -- Interesting quote to choose. I happen to agree with it. There are youth members of these forums. They are Scouts trying to learn more about this Scouting stuff. They have perceptions of all of us based on what we say here. I wonder what they are. DS