dsteele

I'll be in the chat room for about the next twenty minutes. If you'd like to join me, please do. After that time, I've got an appointment with my Harry Potter book. DS

Packsaddle: I did the search as requested. The guy is a waste of time. "Hey, Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!" Only he doesn't believe the rabbit exists. Thanks for the tip. I'm not spending any more time on this guy. DS

My wife finds just about everything on Discovery Channel intersting. I call it egghead TV and generally flee the room. Sometimes screaming in terror at the content. But then again, she doesn't enjoy the golf channel (which has the same effect on her as Discovery does on me.) DS

I'm in the pool. Is anybody there?

OGE --- Once again you have provided the voice of wisdom. I agree and fight to make sure our (BSA) ties to the U.S. government aren't as tight as they were 15 years ago. The BSA policies haven't changed, but the opposition to the BSA standards of membership has, sadly, gained strength. I do have to admit, however, that Merlyn and his ilk tick me off. There's no standards on their part. They want what they want and they want it now. I have to admit that I'm in the first quarter of the latest Harry Potter book and had visions of vanquishing the wizard Merlyn. Now I've come to a different conclusion. Merlyn is much like the baby moths I've had flying in my house the past couple of weeks. If I can snag one and smash it, so much the better. If not, I'm not going out of my way. It will leave on its own eventually. Frankly, Merlyn (and learn to spell it properly, would you?) You're not worth any more effort on my part. I'll respond to you if, and only if, I'm bored enough. DS

At one time I stayed out of this kind of debate because I'm a commissioned professional with the BSA. Now I've changed my mind. I'm also an admittedly unchurched, but deeply faithful believer in God. Having said that, I've now made my position as clear as you have made yours, Merlyn. So tell me, please, what drives you to your mission? Do you wish that all us poor God loving saps will suddenly agree that there is nothing running this universe and we were created from pond sludge? Or do you simply wish to live in peace on your own knowing that there is no god? If so, we're doing that. I haven't seen anyone try to convert you. If you wanted to start your own "atheists only" club, no one here would stop you or try to stop you, even if you got the government to sponsor it. I don't even care if you're chartered by a local village, an army base, or congress . . . it would only be fair. But if you were, I wouldn't try to take the right away from you, even if they denied the Boy Scouts the same priviledge. What I would do is fight for equal rights for the BSA. But you're not fighting for equal rights. You're fighting for demolisihing what is there. That's what really makes me angry. Perhaps fairness comes from God (in whatever form you believe.) DS

Eisely -- no offense taken. All: If you have questions about insurance, you really need to direct them to your council service center. Don't hesitate to ask for someone with the Risk Management Notebook -- if they have it in their posession, they can answer your question. Coverage will vary by council. Laura points out secondary liability insurance. It takes over when your personal insurance leaves off. For the first time beginning in I think 2001, the BSA also offered councils the option to purchase primary liability insurance for its volunteers, chartered partners, etc. Some councils took the option, others stuck with secondary coverage. Accident insurance, while popular, is also optional to councils. Some have it some don't. These forums are good for general questions, but for specifics, you really need to go to your local council resources. DS

Sorry I missed you, Laura. I'll fire it up in another window. If anyone cares to join me, I'll be there while my wife watches Discovery channel upstairs. Can't stand the tatoo specials DS

Diogenese, an early cynic, wandered around with a lamp looking for an honest man. He knew a mirror wouldn't do the trick... DS

I would have squished the wasp like a bug. I do, however, respect Merlyn's right to his views -- however wrong they may be. DS

If the non-scout group is traveling under the auspices of the troop outing, the troop leaders are covered in the event of legal issues. If someone gets hurt, BSA accident insurance will pay for Scout's treatment, but not necessarily the other's. It depends on whether you have the accident insurance and which kind it is. DS

Hey, Bob! Everybody ought to have a Maid! Everybody ought to have a maid! Did you see/hear BB King on A&E this evening? Incredible! DS

I'm going to bed now. Not that you can't join the chats. Or even start them for that matter. We don't have to wait until Tuesday evenings. That's my point. If I see the room open (by someone leaving a note in this thread) I'll be glad to be there if I can. A quiet corner of the world to discuss Scouting issues in real time. Not a bad thing, unless we make it so. Something to think about. It would be nice if we could do it here. DS

Care to join me? We can get in the "pool" meaning chat room at any time. There seem to be plenty of us awake at the moment and I'll open it up. Chat anyone? groups.msn.com/BoyScouts/ I'll be there until the end of Star Trek Voyager. If you'd like to chat, I'll be there. Then it's off to bed. Dave

I'll stick with my first answer as the base answer . . . I'll echo Bob White's. However, I think I'll enhance the part about the volunteers. My version of that part would read . . . The dedication to the ideals of scouting and local traditions carried forth by the selected volunteers at all levels, unit, district, council, regional, national (in decreasing order of importance.) I'm not putting words in Bob's mouth. Never underestimate -- or overestimate how important you are in Scouting. It will determine itself. DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

Merlyn -- Back again? The Cradle of Liberty Council changed nothing other than to make public that which already existed -- the policy of the Learning for Life subsidiary that it's membership policies were a mirror of the sponsoring organization. It may not have been publicly stated before, but anyone who is accepted by the group who signs the participation agreement for learning for life is acceptable. That does not grant them membership in the Boy Scouts of America. It only grants them participation in the subsidiary Learning for Life program. DS

Sounds like a variation of "so what do you do for a living." I'll play along. Mine are BB King, Muddy Waters, Sonnyboy Williamson (original and other,) Ray Charles, and (after a few beers) even the Blues Brothers. I'm also an admirer of Randy Newman and Billy Joel. I think Randy is the greater of the two. Don't agree with his politics, but get a kick out of his songs. I also admit that I never tire of the soundtrack to 1776. DS

Eamonn?! Getting spicy? DS

I'll address family camping at a later time when I have better resources than here in my den on a Friday evening. There are some specific definitions. To answer Bob's question -- there are a lot of subtle differences between liability and accident insurance. In short, liability insurance has to do with protection in the event of a law suit and generally doesn't apply to parents or siblings. The wording in the Cub Scout Leader Guide referred to by another is a simplification. The fact is that in a majority of cases parents or siblings wouldn't be sued in the event something went wrong -- they're not in charge. If they took charge and there was evidence of neglect on their part, they could be sued but the liability insurance wouldn't apply. Therefore it is very simple to say that parents and siblings aren't covered. Where they could be covered is if they suddenly found themselves in charge if the unit leadership were suddenly incapacitated and they took over . . . like I said, not likely. Accident insurance, which is optional in many councils and comes from an outside company (like Mutual of Omaha) covers the costs and damages associated with physical injuries (and illnesses in the case of council policies) resulting from Scouting activities. If it clarifies to simplify (and there is the danger of oversimplification especially when it comes to insurance) but here's how I remember it: Liability insurance = lawyer/ law suit Accident = ouchie = doctors Does that help? DS

If I were the Scout Executive, Jayson's registration would be denied or revoked for a serious breach of "trustworthy." In other words, conduct unbecomming a member of the BSA. DS Jayson, if you're out there, try to get the quote right. I think that's too much to ask. I have a feeling that his quote of my statement above would be . . . "Steele ordered me shot on sight in a show of moral depravity never before witnessed by mankind." DS

FOG -- just a thought on the following quote from you: "Evidently, the other Al is special and didn't have to prove that he is him. So now I'm like many others and lurking behind a pseudonym." The other Al (I'm not him) is a well known and respected participant of the forum. His pseudonym has been around for a while. Your post actually cleared it up for me. I have to admit I was a tad (okay very) confused for a few hours. I can also see why the administrators were more than a little curious. For the record, my name really is Dave Steele. But after seenig how easy it can be to information on the internet, I may live to regret not having my own pseudonym. Welcome to the forums. Dave

Saltheart -- I don't think you were that far off the mark. I've talked with Greg Shields a few times over the years and his quote in the article tells me that there was indeed an attempt to block judges from being involved with the BSA. This quote, from the court spokesman, however, cuts both ways. "A judge should disclose to the parties his or her membership in an organization, in any proceeding in which the judge believes the parties or their lawyers might consider this information relevant to the question of disqualification, even if the judge concludes there is no actual basis for disqualification." If I were a BSA attorney in a California Court and the judge was a member of any one of the gay rights organizations who are attacking us, I would certainly want to know and would use it against him. In the interest of playing on a level field, if I were representing the ACLU or one of those other groups (IT would be cold on the ground because hades would have frozen over, but that's not important right now) I would also want to know if the judge was a member of the BSA. In either case, I would ask the judge to recuse himself/herself. DS

Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obediant, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, reverent . . . A SCOUT IS. I believe it is our core values that make us great. The rest is an important part of the means to a beginning. DS PS, by DS -- and the badges are cool too!

I'm about to have a little fun explaining tailoring terms, but Fat Old Guy is essentially correct. In the future, can I call Fat Old Guy "FOG?" Kind of like OGE. Anyhwo, FOG is correct in that if BSA uniforms (whichever fabric content) do not fit you because of your unusual shape, you can get "Made to Measure" uniforms. There is a difference between made to measure and custom made. For the made to measure uniform, you send in your measurements (there's chart available) and the manufacturer makes the uniform to fit your measurements. If you don't like the cut of the fabric (the pattern or design) you're out of luck. If you tell the manufacturer in this scenario that you have a 14" neck, 49" chest, 65" waist and 32" inseam, that's what you're going to get -- if your head doesn't pop off and your short body doesn't melt to the floor first And you'll get at least two of them, because that's the minimum order for made to measure. If the uniform were to be custom made for you, the maker would need to borrow your body (meaning you would have to show up) at each step of the sewing process so he could "tailor" each piece to your body. Your uniform will fit perfectly, but it's not an option. It will also cost you at least three house payments. DS

Members and guests are covered under BSA general liability insurance on approved outings and functions. There is no requirement that the guest be eligible to join, but I can see where the idea may have come from. If a sibling tags along on an outing, that's a guest. A parent is also a guest of the unit. However, if I were an attorney in a liability suit and someone tried to convince me that the kid who is eligible to join and attended 3, 4, 5, 15 outings and never applied for membership by submitting an application and fees to the council service center . . . I wouldn't buy it and would use it in court. The tour permit is important to make sure your outing meets the rules of the BSA to be sure you're covered by the liability insurance. Parents and siblings should be counted in the youth and adult numbers on the tour permit. DS