dsteele

Actually, there is an out for proud young Scouts (and their mothers) when it comes to wearing the merit badge sash. I believe it began to allow Scouts to wear their merit badges without worrying about having a nearly naked sash. Up to 6 merit badges may be worn in two vertical rows of two on the right sleeve of a long sleeve shirt starting just above the cuff. Wear 'em with pride, Boys! DS

With all due respect to my friend, (which, by the way, is a considerable amount of respect due,) there is no BSA definition of "Temporary." Wear those patches as long as you lke. My old Scoutmaster still wears his temporary patch from a 1960's camporee where it rained like the dickens all weekend. As long as he doesn't try to put one above it or below it, he can do that. It is true that you can only be a member of a lodge in the council of your current primary registration. DS

Greetings, Guru's So what do you do with a patrol made up of one know-it-all with delusions of granduer, one guy who weeps at the drop of a hat, one who thinks everything is about lashing skills to the exclusion of all else, one who is horribly shy, and one who really doesn't want to be there but had nowhere else to go? By the way, I'm talking about a Wood Badge patrol in the old course. The coach counselor walked into the campsite to do their first session and was informed that they would "get to him later." They were busy trying to figure out how to lash a catapult. DS

Sparkie has received many excellent responses here. All of them at least up to this point are excellent. I will also reply to her in private because I know her because I served in that council up until a year or so ago and know who the players are. The point I want to make to all of you is don't be afraid to "go to council" with a complaint if it's a legitimate concern of yours. I think you'll find people there truly want to help you and want to know about problems they otherwise wouldn't hear about if you didn't. Granted, sometimes people want crashing, firing action and don't see it happen, but that doesn't mean nothign has happened. You won'te be blackballed or labeled a crackpot -- unless you do it all the time, in an angry fashion and won't listen to explanations. That's about as plain as I can think to explain it. I'm about to advise Sparkie to do exactly what her gut tells her to do . . . go to the program director of the council with her concerns. DS

Hops and I are there right now. Come on in. I'll see you there! DS

To answer Fat Old Guy's question, no a blazer and grey slacks from Brooks Brothers won't cut it as a uniform -- at least officially. Many professionals wear other brands than the ones sold by National Supply, but they aren't official. You used to be able to buy the pewter BSA buttons to sew on another brand of jacket (the buttons alone cost over $30) and I think the practice continues, but it isn't official. When I was a DE, we had to wear the dress uniform to travel to Texas for our Basic Training. I remember being mistaken for a pilot in Detroit Metro Airport -- and actually giving directions. It was easier than explaining who we actually were Ds

The modern uniform isn't just limited to professionals, but we're the ones for the most part who buy the ugly things. I know a few volunteers that have them, but not very many. DS

Sager: I'm just a little old BSA pro who doesn't know much about Girl Scouting, so I'll take your word on the post you left. But I will comment on the post. Excellent job answering the question. The rest of us are kind of fumbling around, but you cut straight to the matter. Thank you. You did what I try to do, but with a higher level of success. Keep up the good work!

I agree completely that Scouting is a door opener. And not just to places. I've told my own story a few times, but I'll keep telling it because I think it's a great example of the possibiliities that involvement in the BSA can hold for a young man. When I was growing up, my parents were always on me to get good grades. They said the only way I was going to be able to attend college was to get a scholarship. Neither one made much money and there wasn't any savings for me to go to college. I got involved in Cub Scouts, then boy Scouts and did manage to make Eagle very young. I was involved in the OA and got lots of leadership and other wonderful opportunities. Then college came closer. I applied to the military academies. I really wanted a military career. Because of my inolvement in Scouting (and a few other reasons, but mostly BSA) I was able to secure the congressional nomination to West Point. Because of a childhood epilepsy, I was not admitted to West Point. I didn't meet the standards set by the Department of Defense Medical Review Board. I did, however qualify for a leadership scholarship called the Reagan Fellowship to Eureka College that paid full tuition for all four years as well as setting up opportunites for mentorships in the summer. I spent one summer (3 weeks) touring Washington D.C. and New York meeting with various heads of agencies and other dignitaries (tea with the Japaneese Ambassador for example) and the second summer I toured the country by train and got writing lessons from Clive Cussler, Stephen R. Donaldson, and Terry Brooks. Spent the third summer with 6 weeks on an archaeology dig in Peru. All because of Scouting. Then, even though West Point means at least 4 years service as an Army Officer and the Reagan Scholarship does not require public service after graduation -- I went to work for the BSA and will celebrate my 15th year in the profession on October 27, 2003. And I will add that in my 15 years in the Scouting profession, there have been a few times where my involvement with the BSA has closed some doors, for every one that closes it seems like three more open. DS

Score another one for sctldr! Excellent description. Eamonn, from what I know of you, you are not a "red jacket." One of the qualifications of being a "red jacket" is not caring about Quality, being anti-council, etc. You may question, but it's obvious that you care. Actually, in the several years that I have worked with District Chairmen at the council level (about 7) I would say that the number one cause of friction with district chairmen is when they consider the DE to be their employee and attempt to tell them what they should be doing. Whether or not I want the person I hire, coach, train and evaluate to do it. Eamonn, my advice is for you to keep doing what you're doing. And let the nominating committee do it's job. DS

I really can't answer the original question either. I've looked at the requirements for the Gold Award and was impressed by them. If you're looking for an easy match, as has been pointed out, there isn't one. I speak from experience. I'm an Eagle Scout. My wife is a Gold Award recipient (I'm not even sure of the terminology.) I think we need to remember that the end result both GSUSA and BSA seek is to instill in youth the values represented by their (very similar Oaths and Laws.) How the organizations get there is different. My wife is at least as adept in the out-of-doors as I am, but we have different ideas on how to do things. Both work. She would measure up to any standard of the Boy Scout Oath and Law any of us could hold up to measure her. I like to think that I live my life as well. I can understand why someone who's curious would ask a member of both organizations about the differences, and, if asked, I would respond as I have above. I'll answer it more succinctly below: The Eagle Scout and Gold Awards are the highest ranks that can be earned in two similar, but different organizations. Earning either rank takes great effort on the part of the young man or woman and both awards deserve a great deal of respect. Those who earn them should be living examples and the pride of their organizations. And I'd leave it at that. Hope this helps. DS

Fat Old Guy is correct. EIN is a federal thing. It's the "other" paperwork that varies state by state. DS

Excellent advice so far. Here are a few more ideas. Please understand that they are from a very, very old Cub Scout, a very old Boy Scout, an old volunteer Scouter, and an old (15 years) professional scouter. And I'm only 37 . . . but when you start when you're 8 . . . 1) Eamonn's advice to get everyone to training is excellent. 2) Get thee to a roundtable. If a Cub Scouter impresses you, meet them and ask for help. You'll get it. 3) Consult with your unit commissioner, if you have one, or DE if you do not. Put your lips up to their ear and suck -- as a Scout Executive once advised me when I went off to a training conference with a professional he admired. 4) Read the manuals. They're mostly flexible, but if you have a question they can answer it. If the manual confuses you, seek clarification everywhere you can. Your district committee, commissioner staff, office and professional staff, and even this forum will seek to help you succeed. 5) And this is the only NOT in my thread -- do NOT attempt to do it all yourself. Of all the leadership qualities used in Scouting, in my opinion, delegation without abdication (allowing someone to do their job without giving up oversight) is the most powerful and stengthening to the Scouting program. Good luck. I'm available for advice should you ever need it. DS

Perhaps I can illuminate the origin of the "myth." It isn't one. It's simply old information. In the mid-to-late nineties, the BSA changed the requirement for any on-the-water activity to be that a troop couldn't do it without a BSA Lifeguard. Most troops ignored the rule. National decided to change "must" to "should" to help protect it's members. Just a free "two bits" from your friendly neighborhood e-professional scouter. DS

Actually, I'm not sure if it's the boy's decision or the troop committes, but the BSA budget plan (usually one of the papers in the re-charter packet that is most frequently ignored) calls for boys to pay dues. A family, according to the budget plan, should only pay a Scout's registration once. The day he joins. After that, the boy should pay weekly dues (determined by the committee) to carry his weight in addition to participating in unit fundraisers, etc. Notice I said the boy should pay his weekly dues. Whether from allowances, jobs, etc. It's part of the lessons we're trying to teach. I've seen a lot of variations -- few are against the rules, but they're out there. Some units I've seen insist on an annual fee that covers the boy's expenses. In some cases, I've seen troops charge over $100 and still insist on popcorn participation, etc. I've also seen some troops/packs tell the parents the price is XX dollars if you chose not to have your son sell our stuff and X dollars if he reaches such and such a goal. It isn't against the rules, but it goes against my personal philosophy. DS

Hi folks. Before I let my previous post mis-guide you, a friend of mine has just reminded me that recruiting merit badge counselors is the responsibility of the district advancement committee. In the council I currently serve, it is the responsibility of the district advancement committee to approve the merit badge counselors. It may be their responsibility also to recuit them, which may be why it was my first gut instinct to call the district advancement chairman. I've been in Scouting for a long time. In my day as a Scout, there was a council merit badge counselor list, but most of us kids found our own cousnelors and recruited them to teach us ourselves. But there was no approval other than the Scoutmaster's to work with them. Different times then. I have no problem with a kid (Scout) recruiting one of his teachers or other respected experts to be his merit badge counselor. But the proper approvals must be secured before the process can begin. DS

Not to sound anti-government, but the EIN stuff for packs and troops and crews, etc. seems to depend on which state and which person at the other end of the phone you're talking to. There's a lot of consusion. Enough confusion that I can't provide much more insight because I don't have it. If your unit is able to obtain it's own EIN, great, but if I were you I would check to see if the council allows you to use theirs first. Some do. I don't even know who's right. But whatever works with the best of intents, is worth checking out. That's an opinion. Not a policy. DS

While I agree that the troop adult leadership exists to help facilitate the program (a pretty common theme among other threads,) I implore you to remember that a Boy Scout's advancement is dependant upon the boy. His drive. His goal-setting. His desire. His planning. Our jobs as adults is to help make it happen, but not to the extent of doing it for him. To illustrate -- I got a call today from the mother of a 16 year old Scout. He recently got a camcorder for his birthday and went to the Scout Office and bought a copy of Cinematography merit badge pamphlet. Good for him. Then he went to the council's web site (where we have an on-line list of merit badges, their counselors and the phone numbers.) however, when he clicked on Cinematography, there were no counselors listed. The mother called me and asked if there are any counselors or what they should do. I answered her incorrectly, by the way, and didn't realize it until I read this thread again. What I told her was that I would call her district advancement chairman and see if he has a counselor or any ideas. Perhaps that is the new way of doing things. Back in my day (the late 70'2 and early 80's) Merit Badge counselors didn't have to register with the BSa and only required the signature of the SM on the Blue Card. Now that I'm thinking of it, perhaps I should have given the 16 year old (and not his mother) an idea or three or fifty of who might be a good person to recruit to be a cinematography MB counselor. The experience in recruiting a counselor would probably be a good one for the Scout. Especailly if I (or his other Scout leaders) guided him well. That may be the route I go with this. I owe him an answer tomorrow. DS

Twocubdad hit on precisely what I meant. At least what I intended to mean. Teaching a Scout to set a lifelong physical regimine is (in my opinion) an admirable value. Skills and being able to perform physical things like chin ups are good, please don't get me wrong. But without values, skills and physcial abilitys can be dangerous at worst, useless at best. DS

Speaking in defense of Harrison Ford . . . He achieved the rank of Life Scout in the BSA as a youth. I know this for a fact. He worked in the nature area of Camp Napowan in Wisconsin (it belongs to the Northwest Suburban Council of Illinois) in 1956 or 1957. I've heard the reason Indianna Jones wasn't an Eagle Scout in the third movie is that Harrison Ford didn't want his character to wear a rank he himself had never earned. Two years ago, Harrison Ford, who was piloting his own helicopter over the desert, helped save a couple of lost Boy Scouts. I've never heard of his stance on BSA membership standards -- one way or the other. But I have no trouble calling him a Scout at heart based on what I know and have heard. Rant about Hollywood if you want, but if you want to pick on Harrison Ford, I'd like to hear a source. And now back to your topic . . .

Heacox -- Now that last response has knocked the professional cloak off my shoulders and brought out the grinning, stubborn protestant Irish background in me . . . (fortunately I'm next to you -- not coming at you.) If the church wants control of the funds, they're goign to have to meet with somebody from the unit. Who else can sign off on the units bank accounts and who has the checkbook? When they meet with you, ask your questions. But be prepared to actually listen to the answers. It may be a good thing. DS

Nah, I'll lay off the lawyer jokes. Thanks NJScouter for the responses. They made sense. DS

The Boy Scouts of America instills values. Physically strong is a part of the Scout Oath and therefore part of our values, but it isn't defined by waist size. Should we kick out a scout with Cerebral Palzy for not being physically strong? I don't think so . . . because he is probably enduring more due to his condition than the guy who can bench press 300 pounds. Besides, if the BSA kicked out every overweight guy, it would be left to Roy williams to remain the chief, Eamonn to be the National Commissioner, and myself to clean the latrines. DS

Bob is correct. The only exception I would add, would be for the obscure Scout who had a knowledge and desire to belong to the OA and did not belong to a troop who did much camping. Nothing says the camping has to be with his troop. He could attend camp opportunities with an other troop. But like I said, that is rare. Some troops do not camp much. This doesn't mean they're not a troop. Being a troop is the result of meeting the chartering requirements of the BSA and the approval of the charter partner. Unlike McDonalds in the USA, no two troops are exactly alike. Just as no two Scouter Forum members are exactly alike. Just something to think about. DS

Somewhere in the back corner of your Scout Office, or in the trunk of someone's car or briefcase, etc. There is a video called "Ages and Stages." It is part of the Ethics in Action that used to be a stand alone program, but has since been incorporated into other areas. There is an excellent hunk of tape at the end that leads Boy Scouts into a scenario where they talk about accepting each other and is a very enlightening training tool. If you email me privately, I have a copy somewhere in the back corner of my office and can give you the number. DS