dsteele

This topic always interests me because, as is well known, I earned Eagle at the age of 13. Perhaps I was exceptional, perhaps not. I like troopmom's point. The time to say yeah or nay to an Eagle Candidate is at the Board of Review. Once earned, the rank can not be stripped away. However, let us remember that the mark of the Eagle Scouts is a mark that is worn for the rest of his life. If he didn't truly learn the lessons of the Scout Oath and Law, his behavior throughout his life will be held up to the standard the pubilc holds for Eagle Scouts. It will, fortunately or unfortunately, reflect on all of us if he does not live up to it. In another vein on a similar topic, I don't think age necessarily relates to maturity. While I was on vacation last month, an Eagle candidate called the Scout office. In our small council in the summer time, the DE's are all off running our two camps. Theres only myself and the Scout Executive. The Scout Executive was at our Scout camp and I was, as I said, on vacation. This Eagle candidate's problem was that he had secured a donation of lumber for his Eagle project that was due to begin 3 days prior to his 18th birthday. The lumber didn't arrive on the appointed day, and he was promised it would arrive the next day. It didn't. So he wanted to know, from our office, if it was possible to get and extention on the deadline. (editorial -- he waits until 3 days prior to 18 to start the physical part of his project?) In any case, the secretary who took the call desperately wanted to help this young man. She called National and found out that extentions are possible if the reason the badge couldn't be completed was completely out of the Scout's control. She had the council advancement chairman and the Scout write a letter to National asking for the extention. The Scout was told to proceed with his project by the council advancement chairman. A week later, I came back from vacation. The Scout Executive hands me a file on the kid and says that national has sent him (the SE) a letter asking for more details. They want to know how old the kid is, etc. I call the Scout's house. His mother answers and tells me that her son is at another council's camp and gives me the number. I call the other council's camp and leave a message for the Scout to call me the next day between 10:00 and 11:00 AM -- that was the window of time between appointments that I would be available. I waited by the phone. I had secretaries instructed to call my cell phone if the Scout called while I was out. The Scout never called. He called the next day, while I was at camp and unavailable. This made me start to wonder whether he's truly Eagle quality or not. The secretary who took the call told him that there's not much he could do until he returned home from summer camp and that he should call me Monday. Monday came and went. He didn't call. Same with Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday . . . I called him Friday. His mother told me he's at work and won't be home until 5:30. I gave her my home phone number and asked that she have her son call me at home Saturday evening after he got home from work. I told her that it was about her son's request for an extention and that there's still hope for her son to become an Eagle Scout. Last night (Saturday evening) he didn't call. I'm sorry if it sounds cold, but I'm not going to call him and/or try to hunt him down. If he can't muster the drive to call me (at home on a weekend, which I didn't have to ask him to do)I don't see it as my job to call him again. Self-doubt isn't my strong suit. Do you think I need to go further to help this Scout attain a rank that is supposed to be self-driven? My current mind set is that if he doesn't care, why should I? DS

I saw the following piece on the wall of a restaurant and it cracked me up. I think a lot of us (myself included) are guilty of trying to do too much Scouting work ourselves rather than teaching others to do it. I don't care if we're talking about a patrol leader, Den Leader, District Commissioner, Council Commissioner, or Scout Executive. It applies. Please feel free to print the story below and share it with others. Also, please feel free to laugh out loud. It's pretty funny in a Three Stooges sort of way... Afterward, I'd like to read your thoughts about it. Taken from somewhere on the web: "This is a bricklayer's accident report that was printed in the newsletter of the English equivalent of the Workers' Compensation Board. Dear Sir: I am writing in response to your request for additional information in Block #3 of the accident reporting form. I put "Poor Planning" as the cause of my accident. You asked for a fuller explanation and I trust the following details will be sufficient. I am a bricklayer by trade. On the day of the accident, I was working alone on the roof of a new six story building. When I completed my work, I found I had some bricks left over which when weighed later were found to weigh 240 lbs. Rather than carry the bricks down by hand, I decided to lower them in a barrel by using a pulley which was attached to the side of the building at the sixth floor. Securing the rope at ground level, I went up to the roof, swung the barrel out and loaded the bricks into it. Then I went down and untied the rope, holding it tightly to insure a slow descent of the 240 lbs. of bricks. You will note on the accident reporting form that my weight is 135 lbs. Due to my surprise at being jerked off the ground so suddenly, I lost my presence of mind and forgot to let go of the rope. Needless to say, I proceeded at a rapid rate up the side of the building. In the vicinity of the third floor, I met the barrel which was now proceeding downward at an equally impressive speed. This explains the fractured skull, minor abrasions and the broken collarbone, as listed in Section 3, accident reporting form. Slowed only slightly, I continued my rapid ascent, not stopping until the fingers of my right hand were two knuckles deep into the pulley which I mentioned in Paragraph 2 of this correspondence. Fortunately by this time I had regained my presence of mind and was able to hold tightly to the rope, in spite of the excruciating pain I was now beginning to experience. At approximately the same time, however, the barrel of bricks hit the ground-and the bottom fell out of the barrel. Now devoid of the weight of the bricks, the barrel weighed approximately 50 lbs. I refer you again to my weight. As you might imagine, I began a rapid descent down the side of the building. In the vicinity of the third floor, I met the barrel coming up. This accounts for the two fractured ankles, broken tooth and severe lacerations of my legs and lower body. Here my luck began to change slightly. The encounter with the barrel seemed to slow me enough to lessen my injuries when I fell into the pile of bricks and fortunately only three vertebrae were cracked. I am sorry to report, however, as I lay there on the pile of bricks, in pain, unable to move and watching the empty barrel six stories above me, I again lost my composure and presence of mind and let go of the rope." Now go out and recruit some help for your position, please! I don't want you to get hurt. Have a pleasant Saturday. DS (This message has been edited by dsteele)

I'm with the one who senses a set up. I've seen the quote before, although I don't remember where or who said it. OGE is a clever old bird (sorry for the pun.) It is a very old quote. I'm guessing that since the dawn of time adults have groused about children's behavior. Well, it just so happens that like it or lump it, sooner or later those kids will have control of this great world and we will no longer have it. I was thinking about that yesterday when I realized that in 15- 20 years, I'll probably be older than whoever is President of the United States . . . and have a heck of a lot less responsibility. And I certainly won't expect the President of the United States to rise when I walk into the room just because I'm older. DS

Eamonn: God, I love your sense of humor. I hope my invocation of the Lord's name doesn't awaken Merlyn to this thread! I will not retract the cyber professional handle. In fact I may adopt it But I'll have to admit that I came close to using cyber-scout Executive until I remembered that we aren't a council. There's no such thing as an e-council and I hope there never will be. DS

In the pure interest of learning on the part of the Scout, I must say I'm adamantly opposed to the sponsorship of any merit badge if it requires the name of the company on the badge. I'm not opposed to a company writing or underwriting the merit badge pamphlet, but to use a Boy Scout merit badge as advertising for any particular company, I would find offensive. And I'm one of those money-grubbing professionals. I also have to say that I have and hold Eamonn in the highest regard. This post is no reflection on him, but on the idea of sponsorship for merit badges. Eamonn is a great scouter. And a dear ladd. You are, Eamonn. Truly. DS

Two words should fix the problem: Holiday Inn But then again, I have no children and am all "camped out." Just thought I'd stick in a little fun. Good luck with your sleeping pads. Please remember, slippery or not, they sound a lot better than the little hunk of non-poruse foam I used from 1979 to 1996 -- in my Boy Scout and DE days. And, truth be told, I prefer a good Mariott to the Holiday Inn any day. I enjoy the USA Today on my stoop every morning. Grinningly, DS

You can tell when my wife is out of town. I should have better things to do on a friday evening than answer questions like this one But here goes. I have to side with those who feel we as a nation are becomming more civilized. In the beginning, we fought bloody wars with the native Americans (even that term sounds wrong. They were native long before anyone called this America!) Different topic, I guess. We no longer burn witches at the stake. No more public executions -- in the open air, although we all knew when Timothy McVeigh was killed, none of us were there to witness it directly (even the families of the deceased saw it through a camera, if that.) No more slavery. I don't believe in abortion, but I'm sure there was far more of it back when than there is now, and by far less humane methods. Still, we have crime, but murder rates and rape rates are (we think) down over historical levels because of greater reporting procedures and scientific advances in detection. As a society, I think we as a nation have a long way to go, but I also think we've made progress in a lot of very real ways. Sure, I'd like cleaner lyrics to songs, etc., but this country has given me a choice to go with what I like and eschew that which I don't. I believe the atrocities described in a couple of threads that are active at this time are examples of problems that must be stamped out and resolved. But they are not the heart of the nation. I think they get our attention because they are not the heart of our nation, but actually are the antithesis of it's heart. DS

Lord, I don't know why I read these threads, and only You know why I respond, but here goes: "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight." Read the above again if you have to, it's missing something important. But it would be a great oath if you wanted to breed only soldiers. How about this one: A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, and Clean. It's missing something, too. What might a person who represents only those values and with no belief in God be like? Well, I happen to agree that Merlyn -- who's mission irritates me to no end, seems to be exactly what he says he is. I respect and value that. I don't like the message he's spreading and fundamentally disagree with his dis-belief in God, but he's playing it up-front. However, putting on my old Scoutmaster hat, would I, if I had been unable to attend a camp out, allow Merlyn to take my place and pass on his wisdom to the Scouts for the weekend? No. We were chartered to a Presbyterian Church, which is hardly a prostlytizing fundamentalist church (I like those, too) and we didn't always have a worship service on Sunday, but did try to get the boys home in time to attend their own service. As far as any of us was concerned, God is not an option. Just my two cents. DS

The old books are still good for a year. Many councils will not spend money to stock the new books until their stock of the old books is gone. It's a business decision. National won't buy back the old books. I suggest you go with what's in stock. DS

In matters of policy, I hope ya'll will trust your cyber-professional Scouter Steele. Here's what the advancement policy and procedures manual says about Boy Scout Boards of Review: " "The Boy Scout is reviewed. After a Scout has completed all requirements for a rank, he has a board of review. For Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, and Eagle Palms, the review is conducted by members of the troop committee. The Eagle Scout board of review is conducted in accordance with local council procedures. " It also talks about the composition of the non-eagle boards of review later in the document: "Review for Tenderfoot Through Life Ranks and Eagle Palms After a Scout has completed all requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, and Life ranks, or an Eagle Palm, he appears before a board of review. This board of review is made up of at least three and not more than six members of the troop committee. One member serves as chairman, usually the committee member responsible for advancement. Unit leaders, assistant unit leaders, relatives, or guardians may not serve as members of a Scout's board of review." Here's what the book says about Eagle Boards of Review: "Eagle Scout Boards of Review The Boy Scouts of America has placed the Eagle Scout board of review in the hands of either the troop, team, crew, or ship committee or the district or council committee responsible for advancement. The council will decide and promulgate which method or methods may be used. The board of review for an Eagle candidate is composed of a minimum of three members and a maximum of six members, 21 years of age or older. These members do not have to be registered in Scouting, but they must have an understanding of the importance and purpose of the Eagle board of review. At least one district or council advancement representative shall be a member of the Eagle board of review, when conducted at the unit level, and may serve as chairman if so requested by the unit. Because of the importance of the Eagle Scout Award, a unanimous decision must be reached as to the Scout's qualifications. If a unanimous decision is not reached, a new review may be convened at the request of the applicant, the unit leader, or the unit committee. The review should take approximately 30 minutes." Those are the policies. I'm surprised to read that a council is requiring a differnt review for the rank of Life as well as Eagle. Perhaps its to help the young man practice for the big bannana. If your council is doing something different from what's in quotes, please consult your district or council advancement chairman. Sorry for the length of my answer, but if you ask a policy question, I'll try to show you the policy. DS

SagerScout hit it right with the comparison to Scouting. I've worked with a couple Montessori schools who were also very good charter partners for their packs. DS

Speaking of pouring water . . . Let's remember that a Scout died. Semantics won't bring him back. OSHA begins its investigation Monday and must file a report within six months. DS

Hops and I are there right now. Come on in. We'd love to chat with you. DS

This is sad. There is no good side to this. True. Youth to youth abuse occurs in rare circumstances in the BSA and those who suggested A Time to Tell for the Scouts and Youth Protection Training for the adults are right on target. Sometimes all the safeguards in the world, however, can't prevent things like this incident from happening. Two deep leadership didn't prevent it. Having a camp staff trained in YPT (it's a standard) didn't prevent it. If both scouts had watched A Time to Tell, it might have prevented it or led to the victim reporting it right away, but there's no way for us to know that. We don't even know if they'd ever seen it. saddened, DS

First and foremost, this is a real tragedy. While deaths of Scouts, Scouters or staff in BSA camps are very, very rare given the sheer number of people and camps we're talking about, each one is one too many. I know of no current policy prohibiting their use and I know many council camps fire them for raising or lowering or both of the flag. I personally don't like it because, like someone pointed out, even though I know it's coming, I jump. The ones I've seen, however, were fired by pulling a string from a safe distance and not lighting a fuse. Yes, the effect is dramatic, but I'm not sure it's necessary. Silent respect during the salute can be significant as well. It would suprise me if the BSA banned cannons at camp. I think it more likely that we would see regulations as to the type of cannon, lighting mechanism, who can fire it, etc. That's more our style. Scouts have drowned at Scout camps (not many, but a few) and no one has banned swimming. Scouts have died at Philmont, but no one has banned hiking in the mountains . . . standards are set as safeguards sometimes as a result of tragedies. Other times, I think we do a good job of preventing tragedies based on our way of doing things. For example, have you ever wondered why the BSA allows high cope courses with two-wire traverse, etc., yet we ban Bungee jumping? You can have a zip line (as long as it meets the standards) but bungee jumping is out. The reason is (and I'm an old COPE instructor-trained guy) COPE has two safety's -- belay and rabbit ears, usually. Bungee jumping, well, if the bungee cord goes -- splat! DS

Please notice that I didn't say that punishment has no place in Scouting. I only meant to suggest that what's happening here is an education (I meant educational) moment or a training opportunity. I happen to think that when you're dealing with a fire-happy kid it's a pretty good idea to teach him fire safety -- including how to put one out and treat the burns. As for punishing by not allowing him to attend troop meetings and activities, that's up to the troop's discretion and there's very little on it in BSA literature. I believe it's mentioned in the Cub Scout Leader's Guide and Scoutmaster Handbooks, but I haven't kept up much with the latest editions of those. As to those who think punishment has no place in Scouting, I know a few Scout Executives I'd like you to talk to My current Scout Executive isn't one of them. DS

Thanks, Mark, for the kind words passed on by your Scout Executive. If you want to have a little fun ask him -- since he holds me in such esteem -- Why did he hire Pete instead of me? Actually, my friend Pete was more qualified. That's the honest-to-God answer. I would have come with a lower price tag, but Pete was definately the better deal. But if you tell him (Pete) that I admitted it, a pox on you! Thanks again. Dave

You're outside policy on this one. I don't mean that you can't do what you propose . . . quite the contrary. I think the steps you're recommending are what should be done, but that's only one man's opinion. You have received some excellent advice on this thread, all in line with what you're thinking. I'm inclined to agree. I just can't come up with a manual that says "this is how it should be handled." Common sense DOES have a place in Scouting. This thread and it's replies demonstrates that fact. Keep at it. And good luck. DS Punishment, BTW, is an out-of-politic term. Try "learning opportunity" or "Education moment." ds

NJCubscouter asked: "Which leads to the question that I have asked a couple of times now and have not heard a definitive answer: What about the CO that is a place of worship that DOES have an openly gay minister, priest, rabbi or whatever? In other words, Whatevertown Episcopal Church or Congregation Beth Whatever is the CO for a Boy Scout troop, and the priest or rabbi is openly gay. (As I have said, this is probably not all that likely to happen, but I suspect there are a few places where it has.) The openly gay religious leader's name will be on the charter as IH. If the IH is willing to sign the charter agreement that says his/her place of worship will abide by all BSA policies, etc. (including the "policy" (really an interpretation of the Oath and Law) prohibiting openly gay leaders), will the BSA have a problem with this? Does the current "policy" prohibit it? Does anyone know of a situation where this has taken place? " The answers to the last three questions are: 1) no 2) no and 3) no. Now the expalantion -- The IH (Institutional Head) is not a registered position. As NJcubscouter points out, they sign off on the charter -- agreeing to follow the policies of the Boy Scouts of America. In fact, that's why they sign off on the charter and what renews the agreement. The BSA has no control over who the head of a chartered partner is. That individual is signing because of his/her position in the organization. If the organization has a problem with BSA the individual will most probably not sign the charter and the unit will have to find another organization. As to 3), no I don't personally know of any situation where there is/was an openly homosexual IH, but it could happen. I did once have a Presbyterian Pastor tell me he was adamantly opposed to the BSA standards of membership, but he signed the charter because his church was adamantly for the BSA. As to Bob White, I apologize for not mentioning it earlier. No, he hasn't left the forums, but he did let me know that he is unable to post for a while. You'll have to ask him when he reappears, but it may have had something to do with a bet with his wife DS

The fire is lit in the chat room. I'm in there for a little while, until Mrs. Steele gets home. She's due home any minute, but I'll come back when she goes to bed -- which will be shortly after she gets home, I'm sure. Please join me if you'd like to chat. DS

All very good advice so far. Another tool I suggest you check out that can be of a great deal of assistance in mapping out the pack's program year, and it's free, is the Ideal Year of Scouting stuff offered through wwww.trails-end.com It's geared heavily toward the popcorn sale, but you can create a password for your pack and enter in all the stuff you want to do for the year. A template will help you develop a pack calendar and, not coincidentally, tell you how much popcorn each boy needs to sell to pay for his year in Scouting. It sounds like you've found out about fast start training online, and can take it through another council. The record of the training won't go automatically to your council if it's not through your council's website, but you'll still have the knowledge. Just do a search for BSA councils or go to the netroster part of Scouter.com and keep clicking until you find one with the training links. Also, if you can't get a formal training set up, call your District commissioner, Training Chairman, or local Den Mother Superior (I'm kidding with that one) and have them over to an informal "coffee" to spend some time letting your fellow leaders know what's out there. Good luck. DS

Why people buy me old Boy Scout stuff is beyond me. On the one hand, it's kind of cool. On the other, how much stuff is too much for an aging professional scouter? I have three copies of the Boy Scout Field book on the desk in front of me. You're welcome to one of two of them by paying the postage (can I send stuff COD?) I have one that was copyrighted in 1947 (authored by James E. West and Bill Hillcourt.) I want to keep that one. I have a hardcover edition of the 1967 Fieldbook (original) and a copy of the same Fieldbook that was printed in 1981. There was another writing of the Fieldbook that appeared in the late 80's, but I don't have one of those. Don't want one, either. DS

I'm not Bob White, but I'll field the question anyway. Unless the Episcopal Church changes the requirements of the award to something contrary to the values of the BSA, I doubt the existance of a gay bishop will change anything with the religious awards of the church. DS

I once jokinlgy referred to the office of the Chief Scout Exeuctive of the Boy Scouts of America as the "Pope" of Boy Scouting. It would appear that others see it to be reality. My understanding is that Chief Scout Executive Ben Love was stalked by the father of a young man who died on the trail at Philmont and that Ben's life was threatened. When I was a young man at PDL -- I we visited the office of the Chief. A member of my class actually sat at his desk (he was out) and put her feet up on the table. Now there is bulltet proof glass around his office. There have been death threats against all of the Chief Scout Executives since Mr. Love by extremists in the homosexual and atheist groups. The Cheif is under heavy security. I don't like it, and suspect he doesn't either. He's a great guy. DS

How about a favorite of my old Scoutmaster that became a favorite of mine? It actually helped, I think, my path to Eagle Scout. Trail the Eagle (to the tune of On Wisconsin.) Trail the Eagle, Trail the Eagle, Hark the Eagle's Call! First the Star and then the Life Will on your bosom shine keep climbing. Blaze the trail and we will follow hark the eagle's call On, brothers, on until we're eagles All . . . I probably massacred the writing, but the lyrics are what we used. DS