dsteele

The medals are available, as Fat Old Guy points out. However, most councils do not award them. I used to work for a council that did award them, but stopped because the medals cost (this was 10 years ago) around $15.00 each and most folks wanted the knot and rarely wore the medal. If you'd like to order a medal and pay the $15-20 they are readily available from National Supply. I, for one, like to see the medals on people, but don't blame a council for not shelling out the fifteen bucks when it would be better spent on something else. DS

Thanks, NJ -- it is Dave. My Scout Executive can't seem to call me Dave. He almost always calls me David. This irritates me to no end, but he's the boss and I do love the guy, so I answer. I really dislike being called Dan because that isn't even close to my name, but I love my fellow posters on these forums, so I answer to it. Here is the answer from an archivist -- evidently they use volunteers at the National Scouting Museum. As you can see, TwoCubDad was correct (at least that's what I infer) "Dear Mr. Steel, Thank you for your inquiry to the National Scouting Museum Archives. I am replying to your request about the meaning of the Scout Badge. The current Handbook says the following: There are two stars on the badge. They symbolize truth and knowledge. The three points of the trefoil stand for the three parts of the Scout Oath. The eagle and shield stand for freedom and a Scouts readiness to defend that freedom. The shape of the Scout badge means that a Scout can point the right way in life as truly does a compass in the field. The scroll bearing the Scout motto is turned up at the ends as a reminder that a Scout smiles as he does his duty. The knot at the bottom of the scroll represents the Scout slogan, Do a Good Turn Daily. If you need any further assistance do not hesitate to contact the National Scouting Museum Archives. Rev. Steven R. Price JR." Archivist National Scouting Museum I think the question lost something in translation between the individual I talked to an Rev. Price who researched the asnwer. I also think I should have spelled my last name for them -- three e's and not all in a row. I agree with the others in this thread that the question had no place in a board of review for any rank. If there is an answer, it's obvious that it is not common knowledge nor is it needed. DS

That's a new one for me. I've never heard of an Eagle Scout rank being removed. It was not done even in the Dale Case although, arguably, it should have. DS

You have keen insight. I also admire the strength of Scouts who overcome adversity. I almost feel ashamed at trying to hide my tremors -- many of the volunteers I work with and many of the professionals I work with in neighboring councils have no idea I have this disorder. In 30 some years I've learned to hide it well. Of course the folks I work with closely from day to day know there's a problem, but they ask no questions. Now, thanks to the internantional essential tremor foundation, we're able to have open discussion. I'm not sure it's bravery that drives the discussion. Perhaps it's fear. Both emotions are on the same coin. DS

In the cases where I've seen paraprofessionals used, they began as basically the only leaders for the units -- regardless of level. It's a struggle to find a second adult to be there for two-deep leadership. The hope is that the paraprofessional can get the unit to self-sufficency as soon as possible. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I would hesitate to say that a paraprofessional is somewhere between a CM/SM and a DE. Usually, paraprofessionals (sometimes called program aides) are paid minimum wage. DE's may wish they made that much per hour DS

Packsaddle -- If you don't already have one, you should purchase the leader's guide for Venture Leaders (I forget the exact title) through your Scout Shop. Don't worry about Learning for Life -- Venture Crews are traditional Scouting units and work like packs and troops (in structure as it were with a CO, committee, etc.) The Leader's guid will be very helpful in assisting you with your understanding of the program and how it should operate. Also, check out the bsa national website www.scouting.org and do a search for Venturing on the web. There are several very good pages about the program and about specific units. I can't help you with your question about "bone up." But someone like OGE may be able to shed some light on the topic. DS

River2k -- Let me boil all this advice down to a few words, if I may be so bold as to speak for the others . . . If it's okay with Mrs. River2k Take the job. Cast away your doubts and fears (or at least push them to the back of your mind) and enjoy. You'll learn more from the Scouts and they from you than you would anywhere else and the journey is fun, although life-changing, stuff. DS

Fat Old Guy said: "There are some kids that I wouldn't have trouble signing off on their swim test without doing a formal test. For example, the kid who swam five miles (without a break) in a "Swim-a-thon" for charity and is one of the stars of the local club's swim team." I found myself nodding in agreement at the above and then remembered that the BSA swimmer's test has two very important safety components that most people aren't aware of. This is in no way intended to be a slam against Fat Old Guy. Remember that the swim test begins by having the Scout jump feet first into water that is over his head. Why? Because some Scouts do not know how to come back up to the surface. Believe me. I've seen it. They sit on the bottom until someone comes to pull them out. They may be able to swim like fish, but once sunk . . . they're sunk. Also, to be a BSA swimmer, they must be able to float. My guess is that Fat Old Guy used 5 without a break because you'd have to be a heck of a swimmer to make it that far -- but let's use it as an example. Let's say a Scout can swim 5 miles without a break, but what if he had to go 5.2 miles? Wouldn't floating come in handy for the rest? In a council I once served, there was a band group that wanted to rent the camp. We agreed upon a price, but they refused to have their youth and adults go through the BSA swim test and opted to go to another non-profit's camp rather than submit their people to our swim test requirements. They fully enjoyed the waterfront at the other non-profit's camp. Until one of their members drowned. It was a sad story and fully hammered into my head the need for swim tests. DS

Ryon: The question is a good one, but it would be a little easier to answer if you provide a bit more information. Is there someone else in the troop who wants the job and could do the job with a little mentoring from you and the adult leaders? If yes, then the answer to your question is no. If no, then the answer to your question is yes. I loved being Senior Patrol Leader of my troop. It is one of the best jobs in Scouting. A Senior Patrol Leader can make or break a troop. If you're being asked to consider doing the job again, you were very probably a good Senior Patrol Leader. However, Senior Patrol Leader is also a posiiton that builds leadership in a young man like no other position. That's why I'm inclined to say that if there's someone who can benefit from the experience and build the troop at the same time, he should be given the opportunity. And you should use your experience to help him do it. If, however, there simply is no one, then you should step back up to the plate and do your duty. I hope this helps. DS

Who pays for Learning for Life varies so much by council that I would prefer to answer it by phone rather than on these forums. Eamonn and Overtrained, you have my numbers. Twocubdad (I'm sorry I screw up the proper captitalization, but I never seem to have the name in view when I type it.) At any rate, Scoutreach and paraprofessionals, regarding them being paid -- Most councils would much rather have volunteer leaders guiding these young men who are not paid. But economic, cultural and language barriers often make paying leaders for these boys the only way to serve them. In the two out of three councils that I have served, we have had to make the choice between serving Scoutreach youth with paid paraprofessionals familiar with the language and culture, or not serving those youth at all. I would cheerfully make the choice to pay paraprofessionals here in southeast Wisconsin if we had more multicultural youth to serve. But only if it meant they would get no service at all if we didn't pay them. DS

Twocubdad: I got the painter joke. A landlord of mine once paid dry-wallers up front and told me the same joke (lesson.) Yes, it is possible to learn to live with tremor . . . regardless of the cause. Practice makes perfect. Sctldr: It sounds as if you have tremor. I'd suggest the web site that Fat Old Guy suggested . . . it has some tools that can point you in the right direction to seek treatment. Regardless of the cause (Esssential tremor in my view being one of the more benign) tremor of the hands is a symptom of something. www.essentialtremor.org can help you. You're also correct that Propranolol is the brand name and Inderal is the generic. It is a blood pressure medicine and a Beta blocker that also happens to help with essential tremor. The slotted screw thing and detail work was a cause of much tribulation for me for years and years. It sounds like you have the same symptoms. I hope I'm not embarrassing you, but I'm assuming that since you posted online that you're looking for help. It is available. I, too, don't get too much on the spoon when I try to eat soup. My advice is to aim for the solid stuff (celery and so forth) with the spoon. Shoot -- use a fork for the solid stuff if you have to. Now, here's a tip I just tried the other day and it worked. It came from a brochure I downloaded from www.essentialtremor.org as a member (the cost was $25.00 for a year) called Coping with Tremor which was a compilation of tips from others with tremor. When you finish the soup (the solid "fork size pieces" tell the waitress that you have a medical condition and your hands shake. Believe me when I say I understand how this can hurt the dignity. Then compliment the soup and ask the server to pour it from the bowl into a mug for you. Drink the remainder and enjoy. I love soup, but dislike splashing it on the table or my fellow diners. Mugs make it a little easier. Tremor isn't fun, but it isn't the end of the world -- far from it. In my more cocky moments I prefer to think of it as the earth loves us so much that gravity works extra hard to draw us to the ground. The divining rod effect of our fingers, legs and hands is simply a reverb of that love. Lord, that sounded corny even to me DS

Zahnada: Your words encouraged me to post this topic. I thank you for the encouragement and truly hope it helps younger Scouts. I also hope it helps boost the understanding of adults who may have Essential Tremor. As a Scout with tremor, there were very few questions or comments about it. A few called me Spaz and some-such, but for the most part, the ones I really cared about -- my friends, simply accepted it. I've found the real acceptance problem to be in the adult world. You weren't putting words in my mouth by saying for me that I don't like to be babied and never have. I hate it when people ask me (when they think they are familiar enough) what is wrong with me. I really don't like it when a well meaning aquaintenance grabs my shaking hand to try to "still" it. It may interest you to know that I don't shake in my dreams -- even though I have had the condition almost all of my life -- but the condition also disappears when I'm asleep. Part of the enigma that Fat Old Guy correctly called "Essential" in the medical sense. DS

this web keeps getting more and more tangled. I think we're all in agreement that the question and the judgement are out of line. I also think it would be great for the Scout in question to be able to provide the answer to the Board of Review and able to fully document it -- which is why I await with some eagerness the answer from the National BSA Museum archivist -- who is researching it. Even he said it might be the middle of next week before he's able to provide an answer. In the interim, I agree that the more serious problem of not following the policies, procedures and intent of the advancement portion of this thing we call Boy Scouting needs to be adressed, addressed well, and addressed swiftly. DS

NJ -- Good questions and good observations. National has pushed for a more clear separation of the subsidiary programs of Learning for Life meaning LFL and Exploring. Technically, the local council administers the programs of the subsidiary corporation within its boundaries. They have separate charters, but usually the same executive board and officers. Scoutreach, as you point out very succinctly, is Traditional Scouting delivered in ways that aren't traditionally done. Many get so confused with that concept that it becomes easier, although less accurate, to describe what amounts to a different delivery of the same programs as "Non-traditional." I would also agree it sounds like your council's web site is semantically challenged. DS

I'm so mad I'm shaking! Oh . . . yeah. First of all to not pass him on this basis is ridiculous and flat out wrong. I agree completely with Bob White's answer regarding contacting your district advancement chairman. Okay, venting aside -- here's the good part. 1) I have been unable to find the answer to the question in any resources I have in our office. 2) I do not believe the 5 points are for the five merit badges. That may be an interesting coincidence, but it isn't the answer. 3) The theory two of my DE's and I came up with are that the top 3 stars stand for the 3 duties of a Scout: God, Country, others and the bottom two are carried over from the first class patch for the ideals of truth and knowledge. 4) Not being satisfied without backing up my theory, I placed a request with the Archivist at the National Scouting Museum who will research it and get back to me with an answer early next week. No offense to the learned on the boards, but I'll accept the archivists word (whatever it may be) as final. DS

There was a case in Kalamazoo a few years ago where a Moslem became Cubmaster of a pack chartered to a Christian Church. The Church was using the Scouting program as their youth program and respectfully (as respectfully as such a thing can be done) denied him that role. It hit the papers. Folks were upset and blamed the BSA for allowing such a thing to happen. My own parents jumped me on it and I said the same thing to them -- the church has that right. And the BSA (local council) started a new pack with the same Moslem as Cubmaster with a charter partner who wanted youth and adults of all faiths. While it sounds bad . . . in the end, more kids and more faiths were served in the neighborhood. DS

Sctmom: Essential Tremor has also been called Familial Tremor and can run in families. I'm beginning to think it may run in my family -- my mother has it, but it didn't start until she hit her mid-fifties. Fat Old Guy, thank you for the web site. Actually, I became aware of it only a couple of weeks ago and joined it. They're the ones who sent me the pocket card I referred to in my original post. They also sent out a lot of helpful tips. Sctmom, it sounds like your ex has it. Essential Tremor can (and as I understand it usually does) get worse as a person ages. I can understand why your ex's older relative would refuse to eat in front of others. There is a temptation to withdraw from public view. Thank you all for your kind words. Please feel free to ask me any question you happen to be sincerely curious about. DS

Eamonn: It is I who owe you the apology. There was a bit of bait in the title of this thread. The topic originally arose during a chat session and we as a group decided there could be value in me coming clean about my condition. I would like to educate people about this condition so no kid gets made fun of or is unnecessarily worred about. I debated with myself for days of what to call it that would get it read and thought about. I considered "Shaky Scout" or "Essential Tremor," or "Educate yourself," etc. but none seemed to me that it would draw people into reading it. I finally settled on the Steele with a brain disorder thing and hoped it would draw readers and not negavitity. Thanks for the support, guys. Dave

Actually, it's a minor nuerological disorder called Essential Tremor. I'd like to talk about it and perhaps save a Scout or anyone else you might meet with it the embarrassment of having to explain it. Essential Tremor is not a life-threatening illness. I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm looking to help you understand the condition a little, entertain your questions, and participate in an awareness campaign begun by the International Essential Tremor Foundation. It began sometime around third grade. My hands began to shake slightly. It was noticible to me, but no one seemed to have any answers. I was epileptic due to a head injury when I was six and my family figured a little shaking of the hands was no big deal. Perhaps a side effect from the Grand Mal Seizures. The pediatrician I saw wasn't concerned. Life went on. My hands shook. That was all. Scouting was big in my life as I went on. All in all, my fellow scouts treated it as if it didn't exist. Sure, I endured a few hurt feelings being called Spaz by a few unkind Scouts -- but I'm a confident (okay, cocky) guy and weathered it. Please don't call me Spaz, however. The term has sting then and it has sting now. Life went on. I developed ways to hide the shaking without even realizing I was hiding it. For example, handing "folding money" to a clerk over a counter led to the money and my hand shaking as if it would kill me to part with the cash. So I started to slide the money on the counter (there's no tremor if I don't fight gravity) and act like that's how you pass money. Slide the change into your hand and pocket the hand and no one is the wiser. I did and do a lot of public speaking -- with my hands in my pockets or planted firmly on a table or my hips. For years and years (from third grade to age 29) my family doctor would just shrug when I held out my hand flat and asked "can we do something about this?" I just let it go. After all, it was merely a minor inconvenience. I admit I got tired of hearing people whisper "Boy he's really nervous." or "What's the matter with him." The answer, in my mind, was "nothing. I shake. That's all." Then, one day, I did a boy talk. I was handing out pogs to the Cub Scout age boys and wearing my Captain Cub Scout costume (A Cub Scout uniform complete with cape and mask.) My hands were shaking terribly. I was a DE and I was very tired and hadn't been eating well (all of which will aggravate the tremors.) This first grader looked at me and said, with a great deal of sadness (pity) in his eyes and voice "Why does Captain Cub Scout Shake?" It cut me to the bone. Not the kid's comment itself. The kid's pity and sadness. And my own helplessness to stop the shakes. A feeling of anger overcame me. Anger at the condition and my doctor's inability or unwillingness to do something. That was on a Friday. That Sunday, I'd been asked to present a different Cub Scout with his religious medal at his church service. I went and we went up front to pin the medal on his shirt. I couldn't undo the clasp. With as much dignity as I could muster, I placed the medal in his hand, shook the other one and walked back to my seat. Monday, I walked into a walk-in medical care and showed my hands to the doctor. He was a young guy -- not much older than me. He referred me to a Neurologist. The Neurologist had me hold out my hands, touch my fingers to my nose, stand on one foot, close my eyes and walk a straight line, etc. Simple stuff. He diagnosed Essential Tremor and prescribed Propranolol. I've been taking it ever since and will take it until it stops working. The medicine helps a great deal. The disorder is progressive, although it can take decades before it gets really bad. Now we're coming to the part where you can help. If you've read this far, I thank you. If you haven't read this far, you don't understand why I'm thanking you You can help by realizing that not all hand tremors are related to Parkinsons, alchohol withdrawl or other serious problems. You can help by not mentioning tremors to the person until you get to know him/her well. I now carry a card in my wallet, courtesy of the International Essential Tremor Foundation, that reads, "MEDICAL ALERT. I have a condition called essential tremor which may cause tremors in my hands, legs and head. I may be unable to write my name, feed myself, or walk steadily. I AM NOT INTOXICATED. Please call my family or physician for help." On the inside of the card is my family and physician information. I had one of my DE's fill it out for me. My hands were shaking too badly to hit the small spaces. It's taken me years to learn to accept help like the simple offer of a young District Executive to help me fill out my medical alert card. Her simple offer, "Would you like me to fill that out for you?" really went a long way toward helping me. Not that I'm helpless. I can still thread a needle as some of you well know, but I have to use a different technique. Okay. I've talked enough for now. Thank you for reading. I'd love to answer any questions you may have. DS

The one question I haven't seen asked on this thread that I will ask now is: If the military can not charter BSA units on the basis of anti-discrmination, how can it have a "Don't ask don't tell policy" about homosexuality? How can it have maximum weight and minimum height requirements? I submit that it can not and therefore, by being a practitioner of discrimination, is -- by law -- allowed to discriminate. DS

Welcome to the forums, Fish. I'll have to check -- although I'm sure others will help you. Gerald Ford is an Eagle Scout. I think I read that Bill Clinton was a Cub Scout (but can't recall.) If you add Senators and U.S. Congressmen, the list becomes quite a bit longer. You may also want to check the national BSA website www.scouting.org and look under media or do a search. Or go to Scouter.com and search there. There are a lot of web sites that list prominent former Scouts and the information is very good. DS

Way to go, Scoutmom. A couple more tips if you don't mind: 1) Keep the word going out. Have someone call every boy's parent that you have phone numbers for a day or two before the join us night. 2) Keep track of who called and keep their names and phone numbers so you know who didn't make it or couldn't make it to the join us night. 3) have a sign in sheet at the rally. Follow up with those who have to leave before you're done. Have another leader follow up later. 4) If possible, check with the churches near the pack and see if they'll allow you to stuff bulletin sized flyes in the church bulletin the Sunday before. Check with your Scout Office first to see if they have them, but the flyers are available in that size. 5) Write a letter to the editor of your local paper with the rally information as well as highlights of your up-coming program year. Invite parents to bring their sons and sign up. Letters to the editor are the easiest to get published, widely read, FREE, and are a good way to get the word out. The benefits will help all the packs in that paper's circulation area as well as your own. DS

"Dan of Steele" would have been pretty funny and is funny now that I see where you were coming from (although I missed the original remark.) DS

I'll have to research the answer a little bit. I do know that Dale is correct in that a registered Venturer (regardless of which crew he's registered with) can participate freely with your crew. I'll have to look up whether or not he can multiple between crews. I know it can't be done with troops, but am not sure with Crews. I'll get back to you. DS

Ken: Excellent questions and even better advice. Let me throw in my two cents. They're similar to other two cents previously tossed in, but with a twist. When I was a newly minted Senior District Executive, I got sent to Wood Badge. It was the old course (1992) and was 10 days before I got married. One of my ticket items I wrote was to become involved, as a volunteer in a troop so I would remember my roots. My future wife and I were taking classes to join a small presbyterian church. During the time period we were joining the church, the troop treasurer from the church called me. They had only 3 boys and wanted to dissolve the troop and move the stuff to another organization. Being the DE and in the process of joining the church, I thought to myself, "we're not going to do that." and called a meeting of the three boys, the charter rep and the parents of the scouts. We discussed the option of dissolution. I pointed across the street at the Pentecostal Temple which had just started a new troop. I said, you can go in with them, but I don't think you want to do that. They have to be back from the camp outs Saturday night and in church Sunday morning. It's part of the church outreach and it's fine for them. If that's what you want, we'll arrange it. I then asked the boys what they wanted. They wanted to save their troop. The charter rep and I discussed it and we decided I would be the new committee chairman (and also DE) and we would find a Scoutmaster. This was during the summer. We sent the 3 boys to summer camp with a provisional troop and the Cr and I tried to find a Scoutmaster using the Selecting troop leadership model. We did 13 "asks" and came up dry. September rolled around. The original mom called me and said, "Who is going to run troop meetings?" I said that as Committee Chairman, I would do it. To make a long story short, after 5 glorious months, I fired myself as committee chairman and the CR made me the new Scoutmaster. Three boys grew into 7 boys. A year later, we were lucky enough (with a lot of work) to graduate 18 Webelos into our troop. We had 25 boys -- the biggest troop in summer camp that year. I do Scouting (and have since 1988) 8-15 hours a day most days of the week, but the most rewarding times were spent as Scoutmaster. Even with all the book-learning, being an Eagle Scout, growing up in Scouting, etc. Scoutmaster is still a matter of delegation, dealing with surprises, and adapting written materials to your troop's particular situation as well as asking for help and counsel from other sources. It is the most rewarding position in Scouting. Ken, in regards to stepping in front of people, I can tell you that I believe that a good scoutmaster is nearly invisible to the casual observer. He works closely with his Senior Patrol Leader to give the young man guidance in leading his troop. DS