dsteele

I, too, have read the reference that Fat Old Guy refers to. Silver is more pure than gold -- 24k gold is too soft to mold and hold its shape and, so I've read, that's why the BSA chose Silver as the highest. As to the position patches, Silver (whether it's Scout Executive or other position) means primary and "front-line" service. The gold means support. My Scout Executive's patch (and the D.E.) patches all have the silver olive leaf wreaths while mine (as Assistant Scout Executive) has a gold olive wreath for support. Silver = primary Gold = support DS

Le Voyageur: The answer to both of your questions is yes. Same as it was in 1987. There is so much beauty in these places. I don't want to miss it in trade for safety. Pictures of the beauties of Europe are easy to come by. Standing in remote locations where ancient societies once stood is something I long for. It would have to be an ugly day indeed when I fled to the Embassy for help. Annie -- I don't do the un-Scoutlike methods. I've heard of the going through Canada route to get to Cuba, but that's not my style. Over the years I have grown into the "straight forward or not at all" style. It works for me. DS DS

I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense. Once councils have to pick up the tab for the criminal background check, things will get even tougher. It's going to cost a couple of bucks per leader and we're not sure we're willing to pass that cost along to the checkee . . . DS

Sorry, folks, I lost track of this thread. Hops -- I'm not hiking it with her because backpacking is now her thing and not mine. I'm secure enough to relax while my wife participates in recreational activitites without me. There's a saying, "if you love something, let it run free. If it comes back to you, it's yours. If it doesn't, it never was." She always comes back. I support her in every way I can, but prefer to have a wooden roof over my head, a cold beer, and a warm bed. So she hikes with her brother. Packsaddle -- she's done Georgia, South Carolina and part of North Carolina. She did Katahdin to mid-Maine this past summer and will work her way from the north next year. For my part, to bring this thread home, I'm now investigating other south american/central american vacations (looking for hotels) in the following order. I have decided NOT to go back to Peru, although the following list may not be any more safe: I don't even know if some of these countries are open to me: 1 -- Cuba 2 -- Honduras 3 -- Nicaragua 4 -- Belize 5 -- Costa Rica 6 -- Brazil 7 -- Colombia 8 -- El Salvador My wife wanted to know why I don't want to travel to a nice safe location. I said, "what's the fun in that?" I'll be alone which is part of the attraction. Part of my brain remembers that I was voted "most adventurous" in college and am beginning to feel a bit like Robin Williams' character in "Hook." He was really Peter Pan, but had forgotten that as he aged. I used to be very adventurous, but after 15 years of sedentary living -- I want to get out on the edge again briefly. Don't get me wrong, I love my life and have no desire to drive a red corvette and have a mid-life crisis -- but I want another international experience that doesn't involve riding on a bus through France. Let me walk the lesser known paths. Someday I want to go to market in Katmandu. I think I'll take the Mrs. on that one. Pleasant dreams. If anyone has tips on how to get a legit solo vacation in Cuba, I'll be happy to hear them. DS OH yeah -- Spanish lessons would help, too.

Alright guys, I'm going to not pull punches on this one and I don't intend to deliver punches. As a professoinal Scouter, I admit that I live and die by the membershp recruitment numbers. However, I make no apology for it. I think we all understand that if membershp goes down, bad things begin to happen -- we lose funding, there are less kids at activitiies, the public begins to wonder if we are a viable organization, and, quite frankly we can not meet our mission. Therefore there will always be a drive for membership. I also, quite frankly, do not believe that the BSA is a movement. A movement, by definition, does not have to work to recruit -- the people are driven to join. That's the Social Science major in me coming to the 'fore. How we measure membership is open to debate -- obviously, or it wouldn't come up as often as it does. Consistency is the answer. The BSA counts its membership the same way year after year. What you've got as of 12/31 is what you've got. There is a mid-term goal (called the Chief Scout Executive's Winner's Circle) that some call unfair (I'm among them, BTW -- it is a recognition for professionals and doesn't effect the volunteers one way or the other. I've brought that up to Regional Directors and have gotten nowhere.) However, there is a direct correlation -- the districts and councils that are "on track" on 6/30 tend to be the ones who make Quality (which affects us all) on 12/31. Don't complain about the system -- make it work. That's my advice. DS

Orgeon -- Yes. Eamonn -- Yes. DS

I feel almost mystic about this one . . . My thing that works is a wool scarf in the proud tradition of the Cameron Clan tartan (my clan) that my grandfather bought in Scotland some forty years ago. When he passed away 20 years ago, the scarf found its way into my hands. I've always lived in the midwest and wear the scarf (to this day) under my heavy winter coat when the temperature dips below 40 degrees. I've "lost" the scarf at least 12 times -- and it always returns itself to me. I can't explain it. It just always finds its way back to my hands. Seems the Hand of God is on that scarf. Perhaps it's the hand of Grandpa -- either way, the scarf is a blessing in my life. DS

Twocubdad: I purposfully neglected the option to simply let him ride out the charter -- but it wasn't a big reason to do so. Actually, there is no harm in leaving the Webelos leader registered as such and simply changing the position code on the charter when it comes around unless the guy cares to get the proper mailings for his position. If he remains registered as a Webelos Leader, he will continue to get program helps in his scouting magazine but will not get any mailings from the council office that are specific to commitee members. There aren't many mailings that are sent only to committee members, so it's probably okay to leave him on as a Webelos leader until recharter time. Now you have both the by the book answer and the reality answer. I think it's best to do things the right way -- which is by the book, but this is one of those areas where error is safe and there really isn't any real harm to the boys to do it the easy way. DS

Ken, you may be a bit frustrated by now in that you have been asking for BSA policies and/or SOP for maximum den size and turning boys away due to lack of leadership and have been getting good advice about how to recruit leaders. Speaking as a BSA professional with 15 years professional experience -- there are no BSA policies relating to maximum den size or how and when to turn boys away. As long as folks meet the joining requirements, we hope that they will join. There is no mechanisim in place to tell a pack they have to accept the boys -- it's up to the pack and the ability to secure leaders. I think you're right to do everything you can to find the leadership to serve these boys. As to the LDS deciding not to serve Tiger Cubs, as you've mentioned in your posts, it's a decision that has been made by the Church. The Church feels that up until the boy's eight birthday, his socialization should be at home and in the family. Best of luck to you and let me know if I may be of service to you. Dave Steele Assistant Scout Executive

Laurie: Have him fill out another adult application (blue parts only) and get the proper signatures of approval for the change in position. Turn it in to the council service center and the registrar can make the change. You shouldn't have to pay a $1.00 transfer fee for a change in position. If you do that, his position will print out correctly on the recharter paperwork. DS

I have no problem with Twocubdad's methods of fee collection as long as new youth and adults are registered promptly, and not held over until the charter expires. All kinds of bad things can and do happen when registration forms and fees are not turned in promptly. DS

Membership is taken from the charter. When the unit recharters, it turns in registration fees for one year (usually. It can be 6 months to 18 months) for each youth and adult member. The registration fees are paid for the entire year whether the youth or adult stops attending (quits) or not. Unless you want to recharter every week, there is no other good way to do it. New registrations get added to the charter (roster) of the unit in the council's records as they come in. Kids who just "quit" still have paid registrations and remain on the roster because their registration has been paid for the entire period of the charter. So it is easy to have a pack who may have had 20 kids fail to return after summer and had 30 new kids join for the first time n September think that the council's "numbers game" shows them to be 50 kids bigger than they really are. Of course the most accurate method of counting numbers would be to make every unit re-charter each week, but I don't think anyone wants that kind of hassle. People grouse about doing it once a year as it is. DS

I thought I was an agnostic once (different than a gnostic,) but I wasn't sure. So I asked God and he set me straight . . . Hee-hee-hee. I love God. DS

Don't fear the candle, control the candle. Make a rule that the only ones to approach the candle are the den leader and the Cub Scout selected to light it (a rotating basis is best.) and/or the kid who has to blow the candle out. If someone goes near the flame -- they blow out the candle and the trip is put off another week. Of course the rules of fire safety must be followed, but candles have had a place in Cub Scouting for a very long time and will continue to have that place in the forseable future. Of course, some places, such as schools, may not allow the use of a candle -- the marbles are a good substitute. I like these tools as management tools because the boys handle their own discipline, not the den leader. DS

Professional observations regarding Troop Program Features -- advice? Yes. Don't try to use the Troop Program Features like the Program Helps for the packs are designed. Make them available to the PLC to use as a tool, but the choices, unlike the monthly Cub Scout themes are really up to the PLC to pick. I do recommend that they be followed as they are an excellent resource for good program, but it should be the boys steering the ship, not the adults. DS

Gentlemen: Thank you for the accolades, they are appreciated. Whether they're earned or not is subject to debate I took another look at venturing.info and found this clip -- so OGE knows when to look for the new nominations: " 2003-2004 Regional Venturing nomination forms and guidelines will be mailed to councils in early November. When they are in the mail to councils, I will send the info to you guys. There is a change. Starting in 2003-2004 the national Venturing president will be selected from the existing Regional Presidents. This will give us a president will a years experience and will give regional presidents something to work toward." Check with your Scout Executive in November for the nomination form and your council's procedures. If the council doesn't have procedures, ask for the form and nominate someone. The council folks will figure out the best way to approve or disapprove it. I think the email address OGE found is for Bill Evans. Bill is an Associate Director -- kind of like my position as Assistant Scout Executive. Odds are very good that he will indeed read your email and respond to it. I'll be speaking to Charles Holmes, National Director of Venturing -- Whom I've known since 1990 and who's cousin (when he was still in the profession) stood up for me at my wedding. Both Charlie and Bill are great guys and so is the other professional Associate Director DE (pronounced Day.) Glad to be of assistance however I can. Dave

OGE - www.venturing.info is the official BSA web site for the Venturing Division. I learned something new today! From that site I clipped this and now I remember the packet -- I tried to download the form with the qualifications, but it didn't work. I called National to have them send me one. Actually, I called the National Director of Venturing because I'm looking for his cousin and don't have a phone number, but when he calls me back on Monday I'll ask him the questions I'm going to allude to below the quote below: " Each council having a Venturer who meets the qualifications listed on the form may nominate him or her to its region with one nomination per council. Each region will select one candidate to run for national Venturing president. Each region will also select one alternate who will serve as the regional Venturing president if their candidate is selected as national Venturing president. The national Venturing president will serve from June 1, 2002, through May 31, 2003. Each council wishing to nominate a Venturer should approve and forward the nomination form to their regional office by March 1, 2002." The nomination forms came to my Scout Executive and he passed them along to me. In this council, we have no council organization of our 9 Crews and there really is no process in place, nor are there any stand-out candidates for the council to nominate. We really didn't have anyone to nominate, so the packet they sent us got tossed and forgotten. Oh -- the quote came from the National Venturing Division web site. How the council selects its nominee is probably up to each council, but it's a question I'll ask when I talk to my friend. How each region selects its nominee is something else I'll ask about. There are four regions, so there may be 4 ways. I'll also ask about Area Venturing structure. I know in our Area, there is an Area Venturing President who is trying to organize reps from each council in the area -- but that's new this year and my suspicion is that it varies greatly by Area. Please remember that this program is only 5 years old. It takes a long time for stuff to catch on in the BSA and as long as there are volunteers as caring and passionate as OGE this program will catch on. Persistance and time are the key. DS

OGE -- I have to admit that if you had seen my face when I read your post, you would have caught me with the same "I don't know" look on my face. Perhaps the difference is that I'm researching the answer to your question right now. I think I know how the system should work, but I'm trying to verify before I post. Yes, it's true, even us pros can learn from our mistakes . . . on occasion. I'll be back. Dave PS -- thanks for not calling national to vent. Also, the nationalventuringcabinet web site isn't run by the BSA -- it's run by the national venturing cabinet who are youth.

Welcome to the forum, Busybbb! Most of the tips I'm about to give you are covered in Cub Scout leader training, but I'll give them here as well. I encourage you to go to training as soon as possible -- there's a lot of good stuff. One of the best tools to manage boys in a den meeting setting is a Good Conduct Candle. We'll get to the candle in a second . . . At your next meeting (if you haven't done this already) tell the boys that they as a den need to come up with rules for the den meetings. Get them to give you what they think the rules should be and write the ones you agree with on a chalk board. The boys will usually come up with good ones -- that they learn in school. You can add to the list if they miss something. Now we come to the candle. You'll need a candle about 3-4 inches in diameter. Score the candle in one-inch increments. Show the candle to the boys and tell them that this is their special den meeting candle. One of them will get to light it at the beginning of each den meeting. When the candle burns down to a mark, the den will do something special -- like have pizza, go bowling, etc. Make it something the boys will really look forward to. Explain that you will make a poster with the den rules and put it up at every den meeting. If someone breaks a rule during the den meeting -- that boy will have to blow out the candle and it will be longer before we go bowling. The candle is lit only one time each meeting. If a kid breaks a rule and has to blow out the candle, guess who the bad guy is for the rest of the evening. I'll give you a hint -- it isn't you. For your part, get your hands on a copy of Program Helps. These are den meeting agendas that are time-tested and created for you. Den meetings should be comprised of several short and different segments. You really can't blame 8 year olds for getting fidgety during a solid hour of any activity or craft. Program helps also save you a lot of work. Most of the Wolf Badge stuff should be done with the parent at home and the den meeting should help facilitate that. You're not alone in diving into the badge requirements as the substance of the den meeting. I think many new Den Leaders do that and a big part of it is because they don't know about the Program Helps and otehr resources available. Program Helps will come to you (if you're a registered Den Leader) two months at a time in your Scouting Magazine. They'll be the pages on newsprint rather than 4 color. They're available for purchase in your Scout Shop for about $4.00 if you want the whole year at a time. Best of luck. Excellent choice in turning to these forums for help. DS

You did very well, Bob. From the professional end, there is no national Boy Scout office, Cub Scout office, or Venturing office. They are all part of the program division of the Boy Scouts of America. There is a National Director of Cub Scouts, National Director of Boy Scouts and a National Director of Venturing. Bob is exactly right that they work closely with the volunteer committees that decide the details of the programs. Venturing is actually headed by a youth Venturing Cabinet (who's web site I alluded to in a previous post in this thread.) Those are the guys and gals you want to contact, not Charlie Holmes (National Director of Venturing.) The Venturing Cabinet is made up of a National President and the Presidents of the four regions and a staff advisor. To answer the question "What is the relationship between the local council and the national Venture office?" The National office is there to support the local council. As others have pointed out, there is a difference between the National Council (the executive board, volunteer committees, etc.) and the National Office. The office is just that -- an office much like your Scout office (bigger) that is there to support local councils. The local council office exists to support local units and the national office is there to support local councils. In other words, if there's a question I as a professional can't find the answer to, or I need some specific support item, I pick up the phone and call the Venturng Division and ask for it. One of my pet peeves is when someone doesn't like the answer I give them to a local issue, and decides their going to "call national." That's not the way it works. "National" will tell them to call me. I hope this clarifies rather tha cloudies. DS

Sorry I forgot the reference. The site is groups.msn.com/BoyScouts/ DS

I'm in the chat room briefly. Going to see President Bush in the morning in Milwaukee, so I won't be long. I just got my new computer back and have been having difficulties getting in the chat room for the past couple of weeks. I'll be there until 11:30 CST 10/02/03. Dave

How does one wear the uniform quietly? I think Fat Old Guy understands setting the example. The adult should not step to the front of the room and proclaim in a loud voice -- "This is the proper uniform of the BSA and if you're not wearing it, you're not a good Scout!" I've seen that done, BTW. That's not wearing the uniform quietly. The adult can set the example by showing up week after week in uniform and guiding the boy leaders of the troop in proper uniforming. Quiet leadership knows the effectiveness of a whisper and the ineffective use of a shout. DS

Troop uniform policies don't do much for me. I'm neither for them, nor against them. I think there's a better way -- Two examples: Uniform policy example: Parent says: "We have three months to buy Johnny a shirt, belt, hat, pants and patches for Scouts." New Scout: "When am I going camping?" In this scenario, the parents will be lucky if Johnny only hides his uniform until he gets into the meeting room, if he puts it on at all. Boy leadership example: Johnny joins troop. Attends first meeting and the SPL, the PL, and all but the new Scouts are in full uniform getting ready for their next campout. Johnny feels a little awkward and says to his new patrol leader, "Umm, I don't have a uniform . . . yet." "That's okay," his patrol leader says. "You're new. We understand." That Scout is going to ask his parents when he can get his Scout uniform. OR ... if a period of time passes, the patrol leader or senior patrol leader can inform the Scout that wearing the uniform is expected in his troop. Of course, the boy example isn't going to happen unless the adult leaders of youth in the troop (Scoutmaster and Assistants) don't wear their uniforms correctly, quietly, and with pride. Peer to peer pressure -- Scout to Scout, Adult to Adult. It works on all levels of Scouting. DS

Dan -- If you like Clancy, you'll like Dune. Different Genre, but Clancy follows the author's style well. Packsaddle -- so who do I most closely resemble from Dune? Leto Atreides perhaps? Bene Jesserit (sp?) Certainly not Paul Atredies? Just curious. Hopefully, I'm not your Baron. DS