dsteele

Fuzzy: Thanks for respecting my silence, but it's really not necessary. Yes, I have had some experience with faiths/religions that let their youth have their "wild times." The mennonites, amish, weslyan, etc. seem to allow youth in their teens to experiment with the world. This means that those teens (to me as an outsider at least) can do pretty much whatever they want. when the expected time period is up, they either return to the "fold" as it were or they do not. I don't know what faith/religion your young man was from, but I see this as one plausible explanation for your scenario. Unc.

Was he a member of the Disciples of Christ, Wesleyan, or other? Unc.

Eric: Get cracking young man! 947 days, or whatever, isn't a time specification. It's a limit. Go ahead and have done with it. I'm a big believer in getting the job done. Become an Eagle Scout. Trust me, it will shape you into more than you've ever dreamed you can become. I have to ask your faith on that one. Until you're an Eagle, you can't fully understand. OGE was correct. I passed my Eagle board of review when I was 13 years and 10 months old. In spite of what some may say about young eagles, it does sink in. Sometimes very, very deeply. I return OGE's snappy scout salute and deeply appreciate it. Unc.

I have been giving Eagledad's question and Scoutnerd's response a lot of thought. I don't have a clear answer as to what I've gained by being an Eagle Scout, but I can tell you what I probably would not have. Perhaps coming at it this way will help. 1) My parents could not afford to give me a college education, not even with loans. I had a choice, not go to college, work my way to and through college, or earn a full academic or atheletic scholarship. I waned to go to college. Option one was out. I could have stayed home, enjoyed a tuition break because my Grandfather worked for the local university as a professor, and taken 8 or more years to graduate. I was not a great student -- 3.0 average. Academic scholarship wasn't going to happen. As to an atheltic scholarship, well, let's just say that I do have a varsity letter from high school . . . in forensic speech! However, because I was an Eagle Scout and had been a leader in the Scouting arena, I got a full tuition scholarship for four years to a private college. Do I think that would have happened if I were not an Eagle Scout? Probably not. As a result of that Scholarship, I was able to do many things and travel to many places while in college that few other students get to do . . . including visit many dignitaries and famous people. After graduation, Eagle Scout weighed heavily on my resume and my job choice . . . as well as my hiring. It's possible I would have been hired if I weren't an Eagle Scout, even probable, but trust me when I say it made a difference. If I weren't an Eagle Scout, I wouldn't have felt compelled to accept a camp job in the summer of 1990. If I had not accepted that job, I never would have met my beloved wife of 13 years. The only circle she and I had in common before we met was Scouting -- hers was Girl Scouting, but she wanted to work at a Boy Scout camp. Also, there are the values instilled in me -- the true mission of the BSA. I have them in spades whether I want to or not. Yes, they are ingrained to an extent in all of us . . . but if you truly pay attention to what an Eagle Scout agrees to during his Eagle Court of Honor, you'll find words that drive the point home like nothing else I've ever seen. You're familiar with the Scout Oath and Law. Do you realize that phrases like these are used to indoctrinate young Eagle Scouts during the court of honor: "You are a marked man." I can't quote it, but there is verbiage in most Eagle Courts of honor that the candidate agrees to that obligate him to lead others, give back what was given to him, wear the badge as a sacred honor, etc. Eagle Scout is different than any other rank or experience. It can not be taken away (not the knowledge and the internal part, actually, any part.) It can not be returned -- you still are who you are and know what you know. A few years ago some actually tried to send their medals back, not understanding that the medal is a symbol for what actually IS. Knowledge and values can not be taken away, they can only be shared or forsaken. If you're an Eagle Scout and you wonder what being an Eagle actually did for you, just imagine your life without it. Heck, if you were ever a Scout, imagine what life would have been like if you hadn't had the experience. For me, that just drives home the value. Think I'll hug my wife extra hard tonight. Unc.

I don't think the problem was with the computer part of the poll. I think the problem was us. But what do I know? If I knew anything, I'd have a real job! Unc.

A majestic Eagle (me) salutes the buffalo down below. Long may you roam! Unc.

As an Eagle Scout, like myself, you probably remember who you reeeaaalllly looked up to when you were a 13 year old. What I'm getting at is that an older Scout who can give your son an important job to do at a meeting or campout will get a lot further toward keeping your son in the program than you ever will. I'd say your son should have a chat or spend some quality time with the "boy princes" of the troop. If one or more of them takes your son under their wing, eventually the issue will solve itself. I agree that 13 is a tough age. It should almost be treated like homesickness at camp -- what they really need is comfortable surroundings and not more Dad. Good luck. Unc.

The candidate you mention could write, produce and direct a morality play, musical, or other educational production and arrange to have it broadcast on local cable access and make copies for area chartered partners, libraries, or other educational institutions. A kid in my troop did something similar when I was SPL -- he made a tape with lots of volunteers that aired on cable access showing first aid training. A little imagination on the part of the Eagle Candidate will go far. Best of luck! Unc.

Amen, Pack. I understand about your father's hat. When it comes down to it, we all have our own. Unc.

Welcome Rising Scout! Excellent post and very well thought out. Pack -- I'm not sure where you're headed with your querie, and I don't know that Rising will know either. It's too late in the evening (or early in the morning) for me to dig out the research. Unc.

Prarier mentioned some data retrieved from the web site of Scouting for All. We do have a spokesman for Scouting for All, Mr. Brian Westley AKA Merlyn LeRoy who posts here regularly. Mr. Westley, would you like to comment? I believe your name is listed (I've seen it) on the Scouting for All Web Site as an (forgive me if I get the title wrong) assistant regional director. Are you willing to take questions about Scouting for All? Unc.

No, an allegory isn't a type of hat. I spent this week at home on vacation. I probably should have gone out of town, but it was a relatively relaxing week and I spent some time reflecting. I also bought a new hat! I'm excited about my new hat, even though I don't consider myself a hat person per se. A hat can be all kinds of things . . . from the knit caps they put on the heads of babies to cover from sunshine and weather to religious wear. I remember several hats being important in my life. My tastes have changed over the years, but there always seems to have been some sort of hat in my life. When I was a young boy I was never without the plain red ball cap my father gave me. One time, when my Dad was late arriving at the family reunion at a cabin he'd never been to before, my Grandpa put my red hat on the mailbox to show my dad the driveway. Dad arrived while I napped and hadn't yet missed my hat. I missed my Dad, but not the hat. Evnetually I outgrew that dear little red hat given to me by my Dad. I went for years without any hat at all and didn't notice the absence. I had a series of hats when I joined Scouting. Some struck me as cool, but none ever really grabbed my heart. I had the blue cub scout cap with the yellow braid running up to the top of the crown and Akela embroidered in gold on the front, the overseas Boy Scout cap (the one you could fold over your belt), a cool one with an insulated cap and ear flaps of red knit fabric you could pull over your ears. But none of those was ever MY hat . . .know what I mean? They weren't for everyday wear and even the ghost of those hats were nothing more than a happy thought. When I got involved in high school forensics (speech) I somehow convinced my friends that we should each wear a different colored fedora. Fedora's weren't in style at the time, but we wore them with pride. I think it was the beginning for me of a hat I chose myself to wear freely, frequently, and with pride in spite of the opinions of others. While I was in college, I had outworn that beloved fedora. It's a hat after all, and not impossible to destroy. In fact, I think I just wore it out. But when I spent a summer in South America, I found another hat. This one was in the style of a fedora, but the felt was thicker and more durable. I wore it everywhere and it served me very well. Somewhere, for some time, I outwore that hat too. I've spent the last 10 years looking for one like it. I found it at the Levine Hat Company. They have a web site. I ordered the Logarmarsino Jack while I was on vacation. It's a fine felt of hare and otter fur in the fedora style. I got mine on Wednesday of last week and all is right with the world. Do you have a favorite hat? Just thinking alone on a Sunday afternoon . . . Unc.

Sometimes phrasing makes all the difference. Rather than saying, "I guess I'm not infallible like you, BW." Why not say, "I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear to you." It could also have been prhased as "I don't think you understood what I meant . . . " Those wouldn't have been personal attacks. Unc.

Sorry, Dug, it's just the luck of the draw and nothing personal. The above comment is a turning point where these discussions seem to leave the Scout Law behind. I sense a temper or two (mine isn't one of them) about to flare in inappropriate ways. This is what I meant in the other thread when I stood with Eamonn and the others, folks. Unc.

OGE -- While I applaud the results of your musing, may I respectfully suggest that full attention be paid to the chain saw while it is in use? Musing is one thing. Musing with a chain saw in hand is dangerous work at best. I don't disagree that BSA training is excellent on many levels. I do think that we're in danger of becoming as known for our outdoor skills as Girl Scouts are known for selling cookies. BTW -- this isn't a slam against the GSUSA. I'm married to a woman who earned the Gold Award and hold it parallel to the Eagle of the BSA. To me, a Scout who has benefited from the program and benefited societs is the guy who returns the $2.00 over-change given him by a clerk at the store. That demonstrates what we're truly trying to teach . . . the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Anyone can build a fire and many programs teach you how to do it in many different ways. Outdoor skills are important, IMHO, but the values in the Scout Oath and Law are our mission . . . when we have developed those in youth, we have done our job. Fire by friction is cool, but trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent are the pillars of what we do. They are right up there with Duty to God, Duty to Country, and Duty to Others. In the adult world I've seen, "He's a regular Boy Scout" does not refer to lighting a fire on a desk by rubbing the ruler against the stapler. It refers to living the Scout Oath and Law. Unc.

I appreciate civility and all points of the Scout Law in discussion. I think some threads in recent days have strayed from that. I typed much more than that, but have learned the wisdom of deleting before even posting . . . and so I'll say no more on that particular thought. As to who may join our "circle of marshmallows" I think anyone is welcome as long as they remember that this is a sort of Scouting archive, although unofficial, and that youth are among us. We can not lead them if we are seen to quibble, squabble and do worse things among forum members. Debate is one thing -- personal attacks are another. Unc.

I'm with Eamonn on this one. Unc.

I respectfully disagree about the CD's. They can not be read in the woods. They also make lousy fire-starters. Unc.

The recitations of the two deep leadership requirements have been correct in this thread. I haven't seen a mention of the other option if you have a trusted adult who is not registered and is not a parent of a participating youth . . . Get them registered! Have them fill out an adult application, get the proper signatures, and submit it to the council service center. There's no waiting period to become a registered leader. Just a thought. Unc.

This is the type of thing that I believe should be discussed with your own Chartered Organization and your district leadership -- the District Chairman, District Commissioner or District Executive. I don't think the boy (in the one situation) with an agnostic mother should be hindered or excluded. He's too young to make a decision regarding the existance of God. As to the leader who plainly does not believe in God . . . you're not a bad person. I don't believe for a second that you're a bad person. However, you can not, by definition fulfill an obligation to God because you don't believe in Him and therefore can not teach others to do so. Unc.

OGE, dear friend: I agree with your premise. Yes, it would honor the greats more if their message was universally accepted. I have no doubt of that. But does it diminish their greatness to aknowledge their contributions and to do all we can to rid society of the ills they themselves fought ... even though we know we can not do it ourselves or even as effectively as these humans who were so great? The Pope deserves his due. We who give him these praises in his death owe it to him to continue the missions he sought through his holy life. Unc.

TJ: Actually, you're mostly right. I am better than my previous post. I came back to edit it and tone it down. Along the way, however, I re-read your posts and got angry all over again. Please accept my apology for the previous post I submited. However, I also ready your BTW -- By what definition do you meet the membership requirements of the BSA? Are you not a homosexual? Unc.

TJ: I don't think you should have posted this: "Because I am the BSA, every bit as much as you (and apparently more so than the top executives on the payroll). And I'm not in favor of this prejudice, nor in seeing my organization shrink into irrelevancy because if it. " YOU are the BSA? I'm glad to know that. I frequently see the BSA referred to in the third person on these boards, so I'm glad to know they were actually talking about you. If you can't detect the sarcasm in my tone, please study literature a bit more than you already have. You have made it known in past posts that you are gay and that you are active (or have been) in the Boy Scouts of America. Yet you stay "in the closet" outside of the internet. Until you have the guts to come out in public, please don't cloud the ethernet. One either meets the membership standards of the Boy Scouts of America or one does not. If this is your attempt to change the current membership standards of the BSA, I think it is a poor attempt. Unc.

He has passed on to the hands of God. Just a few moments ago. The tears I shed are for us, not him. I have absolutely no doubt that Pope John Paul II is in the arms of Jesus. I'm not Catholic, nor is any member of my family. Today I feel like we're all Catholic. Regardless of faith, I would hope that all good people would respect Pope John Paul II for his life of service and undeniable sense of right that has guided him to guide the world through so much for so long. I can only pray that there will emerge another who is as strong, as faithful, as humble. A true leader of the world who will bring us even closer to peace and harmony on this earth. He will surely leave his footprint in history. Unc.

I'm not trying to sound flippant here, but the answer is "whoever cares the most." Obviously, you try to avoid using a number that's currently in use by another organization. Beyond that, it's generally pretty open. I've been involved in councils where the first digit is dictated by the council -- i.e., where I grew up, it was district 2. Each pack and troop number began with a 2. This allowed everyone to know where you were from by your troop number. In other councils, it's pretty wide open. I've worked with some chartered organizations, like the American Legion, where they wanted their troop number to be the same as a post. In one notable experience, as a unit commissioner, I suggested the number of 705 for a troop chartered to a Pentecostal Temple. They quickly changed it to something else . . . to my credit, I had no idea that The 705 was the popular bar outside the plant where most of the leaders worked. As Pentecostals, they wanted absolutely no connection with that tavern! I also helped start a Cub Scout pack (the DE did all the work) that took the number 335. The reason they took it was that their organization meeting occurred at 3:35 PM -- which was when school let out and the parents were available! Not sure if any of this helps, but thanks for letting an old timer share some stories. Unc.