dsteele

It's part of a very well known classical music piece usually performed by an orchestra, but for the life of me I can't think of which one. Can anyone else help? DS

I'll answer . . . as soon as I receive assurances that the original poster of the question will supply his own answer at a later time. (Paint an impish grin on my face, Bob Dave

captainkirk tossed in a soft ball, and I'll grab it and run . . . He said "So rather than blaming them, what can we do as ASMs, as Committee people, as parents, and as District and Council Officials to help them when they do make mistakes?" Officially, everything a district/council does falls into The Four Functions. The Four Functions are, in no particular order because they all overlap somewhat and all must occur: Program Membership Unit Service Finance Program refers to district and council activities, training of all kinds, camping, advancement, etc. Membership refers to bringing in new members, starting new units, etc. It's the recruitment end. Unit Service relates mostly to Commissioner service, Roundtable, etc. Finance -- this stuff doesn't happen without money. Finance is FOS, popcorn, United Way relations, budget issues, etc. Council volunteer and professional structures vary greatly from council to council, but the four functions remain the same. Now back to captainkirk's question . . . The first way we can help unit leaders to prevent mistakes is through training. If we can't get them to come to the training, I think we owe it to them to take the training to them. The second way is to have commissioners and other district people working face to face with the unit leadership. A commissioner who visits a troop meeting or a campout can offer valuable advice to a unit leader who may not know or be able to put into practice boy leadership. I'll take it a step further than that, because the program folks have their work cut out for them, too. The advancement committee in the district should receive monthly advancement reports on each unit and follow up with personal training, pressure and visits to troops and packs with little advancement. I think the training committee should know who is and is not trained in the district -- at least the unit leaders -- and target the untrained and do whatever it takes to get them trained. The camping committee should worry about whether every troop has at least one outing per month. Having said that, I'll let you in on a secret that Bob White and others have alluded to -- we're all human, even this little Assistant Scout Executive. It's pretty rare to have a district hitting on all cylanders. I haven't seen it yet in my 15 years. I know it's nearly impossible to reach the ideal -- and if you do it's time to change the ideal -- but if we don't try, we'll never even come close. DS

One of the reasons I enjoy participating in these forums is that it stretches my knowledge. I learned something today. While reading this, the professional in me was wondering if the BSA does indeed allow youth-only campouts and such for patrols. Truly not knowing the answer, I went searching. Patrol activities are mentioned in the Patrol Leader Handbook and Junior Leader handbook. The best answer I found comes from page 22 of the current Scoutmaster Handbook: "PATROL ACTIVITIES Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop. However, patrols may also set out on day hikes, service projects, and overnighters independant of the troop and free of adult leadership as long as they follow two rules: The Scoutmaster approves the patrol activity. The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function. A patrol activity without adult supervision should be allowed only when it has been thoroughly planned and the Scoutmaster is satisfied that the activity is well within the patrol members' levels of training and responsibility. If the Scoutmaster has any doubts, he should encourage the patrol to reconsider its plans, or should assign adults to accompany the patrol during the activity in question." I noticed that there is a worksheet in the Patrol Leader Handbook to guide the patrol in satisfying the Scoutmaster. DS

I echo Eamonn's statements with the following execptions: I do not own a restaurant. I do not sell alchoholic beverages. I do smoke, but not in front of youth and only in designated areas. If youth follow me into a designated area -- which has happened, I put the cigarette out. Also unlike Eamonn, I smoke in my own home and car. If you don't like it, you are free to leave. I don't smoke in non-smoker's car or home. DS

Scoutingagain: Welcome to the forums and thank you for posting. I think everyone has something they can add that helps all of us. Unfortunately, I'm not from the northeast and don't have much to contribute. Perhaps someone can suggest a chunk of the Appalaccian Trail near you, but I can't. Good luck and feel free to post anytime! DS PS -- if you don't get many responses it's probably because your question is pretty geographically specific and it's the weekend. Keep trying. DS

Thanks, Twocubdad, for calling me a gentleman. Actually, National has no desire to put Nationally owned Scout Shops in every council. The national stores are located in major metropolitan areas -- high volume. The closest to us are in Milwaukee and Chicago. We also have two official Scouting distributors in our Council -- retail establishments that carry Scouting merchandise that is part of their inventory through an agreement with National Supply. They carry far more uniforms than we have available in our small Scout Shop. We sell mostly badges and books. Distributors are not allowed to sell badges. We do have an excellent relationship with the national scout shop in Milwaukee and they send us stuff within 24 hours if we need it. We also keep maps to their store in our trading post because it's only about 30 minutes away from our office. DS

I admire Twocubdad. I really do. With all due respect, however, there is a significant flaw in his math. The flaw is that each council owned and operated Scout Shop is its own franchise owned by the local council. There are a few major-metropolitan Scout Shops run by the national supply division, but most councils have to order and stock the inventory based on their own cash which comes from primarily FOS, popcorn, Camp Revenue and United Way income. They aren't going to stock a pair of shorts, pants, coulotts, etc. for every member in every size. It's just not practical. DS

Bob White is correct with two exceptions: I don't have and never have had an Aunt Gerty and 2) I wouldn't know if she wore garters and wouldn't want to know. If this leader was removed from Scouting, appealed and was re-instated, he or she would have to apply as if for the first time and a criminal background check would be run. The approvals of the charter partner would be in place. Also, to help out the poster, there is no such position in the BSA as Field Executive or FE -- the correct title is Field Director. The Field Director may have meant that a new application and all the approvals have to be completed in order for the re-instated leader to be registered and could have simply paraphrased. DS

I'm a big proponent of the cotton or poly/wool pants. I also agree that ordering them can be a problem -- the shipping reasons mentioned, etc. There is another option, although it is not without its down-sides. You can order uniform parts made to measure to your specific measurements. The down-sides are that you have to order a minimum of 2 pieces that you are having made to your measurements; there is a fair delay between placing your order and receiving your uniform parts; you have to have measurements that can't be fit by traditional size; once they are made, they are yours -- so don't let just anyone measure you. I suppose I could argue in defense of the off the rack poly/cotton uniform pants -- but I've been honest with you this long and would hate to try to lie to you now I'm a natural fibers kinda guy. DS

SS - Let me first address the mess you described by letting you know part by part from your list what is against BSA policies and what is not. "One Den's too big with no thought of separating " This is not a violation of BSA rules, but could hurt the program for the boys. They could get "lost" in the big group and some kids aren't comfortable without getting personal attention. "Paperwork is not turned in for all members that way their charter isn't as expensive" That's a problem. At best it is an insurance risk for the pack to carry intentionally un-registered kids. At its worst, it is an absconcion of funds -- stealing money from the parents. If a pack accepts an application and money from a parent, the expectation on the part of the parent is that their son is registered promptly with the BSA. Even holding that application and money for one month to save the fee (I've seen it done) is stealing money from the parents and the Boy Scouts of America. Further, if the boy is not registered, he is not entitled to wear or earn the badge. "No 2 deep leadership for ANY of the dens " Are there no parents at the meetings? Just a den leader? If so, they are neglecting a policy of the Boy Scouts of America and there is nothing to protect them from allegations of child abuse or negligence in the event of a law suit. Two deep leadership does not require two registered leaders, there are other options. "Parents have been told they don't need any more leaders/help" This is not terribly bright on the part of the committee, but isn't violating policy. "Parents have also been informed the boys don't need any uniforms" That, as it happens is true. However, there are a lot of good reasons for the uniform and I think efforts should be made for full uniforming for all boys. "Bears & Webelos are not allowed to earn their whittlin' chip, I was told the boys might get hurt " Phooey! There is no policy to back that claim up. I agree with the suggestion that you teach it anyway. "We've been told that the boys are discouraged from earning a religious medal " That ought to get your CO excited in a not-too-good way. "Meeting are held 2 times a month with 1 pack meeting a month, not allowed to have any more than 2 meeting even for webelos " I'm seeing more and more of this. There are no requirements for the number of meetings that must be held and some packs are going to bi-weekly den meetings and bi-weekly pack meetings just to keep busy families involved in some Scouting. I don't agree with it, but there's nothing to stop them. I'm troubled that they're limiting the number of meetings you may hold and don't agree with that, either. "Cubmaster has taken it into her mind that she has to approve all the bobcat badges. The parents and leaders aren't good enough for that. " I need some help with this point. I can tell you that the approval for the advancement falls to whichever position(s) have to sign the Advancement Report" that is turned in at the council service center when the badges are purchased. If the Cubmaster is one of them, she indeed does have a part of the approval in her hands. I don't have one in front of me and don't regularly see them, so I'm really not sure. As to CR A and or B I'll admit to confusion. Whoever is the currently registered one needs to spend some time with the District Executive, District Commissioner or both to find out what he/she can and should do. Then they need to step up to the plate and do it. An important part of that process will be to have a conference with the Institutional Head -- pastor of the church. DS

Ging Gang Gooli Gooli Gooli Watcha, ging gang goo, ging gang goo. ging gang gooli gooli watcha, ging gang goo, ging gang goo. Heya, heya cheya . . . Ya know? DS

I have no problem with debating and discussing the issues. I try to provide rationale for rules. Folks wanted to know why laser tag is a restricted activity and I answered. If you want to debate it, go ahead. I like squirt gun fights -- but I don't agree that they are a war game. I suppose a squirt gun fight could play out like laser tag, in which case I would have trouble with it as a BSA activity. The squirt gun fights I've been a party to in Scouting were a way for us to keep Cub Scouts cool during hot days at Day Camp and they were free-for-alls and everyone got wet. There were no winners or losers. Everyone got wet and no one got "killed." Similarly, the way we always played capture the flag was by taking "prisoners" to a "jail" where they could be freed by clever team mates. The matter of shooting at human targets is further addressed in the G2SS under the firearms chunk, but I don't have one in front of me so I can't quote from it. However, I imagine someone else can. Please remember that I work in a local council and am not part of the National Council. I am not a member of a National Committee and do not make the rules. I am, however, commissioned to follow them and see that they are followed to the best of my ability. DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

Here are the chapter and verse of the Spirit of the Eagle Award, taken from the Advancement manual. "Spirit of the Eagle Award The Boy Scouts of America has created the Spirit of the Eagle Award as an honorary posthumous special recognition for a registered youth member who has lost his or her life in a tragic accident or through illness. This award is bestowed by the National Court of Honor as part of the celebration of life of this young person. The award recognizes the joy, happiness, and life-fulfilling experiences that the Scouting program made in this person's life. The guidelines are: The recipient must be a registered youth member under 21 years of age at the time of his or her death. The unit committee must submit an application for the award within six months of the youth member's death. The unit committee must request the approval of the local council. The Spirit of the Eagle Award application, No. 92-108, is available through local council service centers." DS

Sixstone: Most of the time I can answer quickly. This time I need to mull it over until morning. Both Twocubdad and Eamonn offer solid advice. I'd suggest starting a pack under your own leadership as an option. However, I ask that you let me mull it over during the night and I'll try to give you some alternatives within 48 hours of this post. Please free to call me to task if needed. I'll watch these forums as I always do. Thanks for answering my questions. I'll return the favor and answer yours. If you'd like, please feel free to private message others on this forum to get their opinions of me. I don't mind. Dave Steele

Hi guys. It's late at night and my resources are at the council office. Let me give you now what I remember of the award and if someone reminds me during the daylight hours of 10/16 ot 10/167 -- I'll be in and out, I'll look it up and quote you chapter and verse. For now, here is my memory. The Spirit of the Eagle Award is awarded by the national court of honor on recommendation of the local council to those Scouts who perish before they have the chance to earn the rank of Eagle Scout, but who were on track. The nomination should go to the council advancement committee either through the district advancement chairman or committee to the council committee. I believe there is a form. I know of no formal ceremony for presentation of this award, but it sould envelope the wishes of the family. Please remind me in the next couple of days and I'll look up the specifics. DS

Eamon: Old china Perhaps I need to go back to Peru just for a deeper understanding of English terms of endearment! I'm glad you emailed this post to Pam. JROTC can be a great source of membership. I'd also suggest ski patrols or groups in the local high school for Venture Crews -- they're often lacking in insurance the BSA can easily provide. The same is true of skateboard/snowobard posts. Keep searching. Opportunities are out there. As always, the opportunity for you or Pam to call me is open. You have the numbers. Best of luck. It's a tough year. DS

The sarcasm of Fat Old Guy and Packsaddle enhance rather than mock the point I am trying to make. Let's not make Capture the Flag a restricted activity. Let's not make squirt gun fights a restricted activity. Obey the rules. Lazer tag is a restricted activity. We don't teach kids to hunt people. Leave that to the military. It is not our role. DS

I'm pretty excited about a meeting I went to with one of my District Executives this afternoon. No, change that to very excited. I got an email from my Area Director last week about a partnership the council in Memphis, TN has with the local and national JROTC and NJROTC programs (That's Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps and Naval Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps) and it had some information about a natural fit between Venturing and JROTC. Part of the interest comes from an OSHA regulation that doesn't allow JROTC students to shoot rifles -- only air rifles. However, Venturers can shoot rifles under approved conditions. They are also interested in properties that allow them to make actual fires, have confidence courses, etc. I got more information when I called the National Director of Venturing to answer a different question that came up in these forums. The National Guy informed me that I have the Kenosha Military Academy in this council. I must confess that I didn't know about them. I took the information to the DE and she made an appointment with the Lieutenant Colonel for this afternoon. She did her homework and I did mine. She spoke to another Colonel in Memphis who works with (I think) 11,000 JROTC Venturers in 23 Crews in their council, so we knew what they liked about the program. We show up at the office of the Academy at the appointed hour, expecting to make a pitch to the Colonel. He surprised us. He had with him his Seargent Major and another Seargent. He had done some research, obviously, between the D.E.'s call and the appointment. He introduced the Seargent Major and Seargent by saying that if they were going to do the program (Venturing) that those two men would be the ones to do it. He said he was meeting with us because any financial decisions would be his to make. The seating was strange. The Colonel was in front of the DE and myself, the Sgt. was to the DE's right and in front of her and the Sgt. Major was either behind me or to my left, depending on where I chose to point my chair. No offense intended to any officer of a branch of service past or present, but I focused on the Sgt. Major. I figured if I could get through to him, we had a done deal. I'll go on the record as saying I love Sgt. Majors -- they get things done. While the DE was explaining the concept and describing our council facilities that would be at their disposal, I showed the Sgt. Major the requirements for the Ranger Award. He showed me the curricula he's trying to write from scratch and they matched the requirements for the Ranger Award. We were both then trying to figure out how to make this Venturing Crew a reality. Meanwhile the DE was doing very well with the other two. Soon the discussion turned to the mechanics of starting the Crew and getting everyone signed up that's interested. We were no longer talking about concepts, but beginning to plan program. The Sgt. Major was asked how many kids he thought might be interested in joining the Crew. He said, "25 or so." He was thinking about the attendance at outings at our camp. The Colonel (I love officers, too,) said, "more like 50." If I can persuade them to adopt it into their curricula -- like the Sgt. Major wants to do (and if Sgt. Major wants it, I figure my odds are pretty good) they'll register all 164 kids in the program. The long and short of it is this -- if you have NJROTC or JROTC in your council, it's worth a phone call to your council membership chairman or whichever professional in your council is in charge of membership to make the call. If that professional isn't sure if there is JROTC or NJROTC in the council, have them call the Venturing Division at the national office. They have a list by council of the programs. If you have a military background and offer to go to the meeting, I'm sure it will be appreciated. BTW -- the Colonel actually was concerned that Boy Scouts might raid their campsite. I had to laugh at that one. What Boy Scout Troop would want to raid a High School ROTC unit camping on the same property? DS

Sixstones, welcome to the forums. If you don't mind a few questions from an old professional Scouter, the following information would help me and a lot of very wise volunteers to help you with your situation: To which organization is your pack chartered? What are the points of contention between the CO and the COR? Can you give us more details on the "vicious mess?" What role do you play in the pack? In what way is the committee "throwing out the book?" Generally speaking, the more details given to the folk who hang out here, the better the advice received. I think you'll find this group to be pretty even-handed when all information that can be given is given. Please let us help you. I like to think that's what we do. Assistant Scout Executive DS

There is a national policy on the expiration of merit badge partials. It is the boy's 18th birthday. It's in the Advancement policies and procedures manual, which I don't have in front of me, but it is in there. I believe there's also something in there that enables a counselor to re-test or bring the boy up to speed on requirements met a while ago, but starting over isn't in the language. DS

The BSA doesn't teach Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts to shoot human targets with anything. I once made the mistake of bringing up squirt gun fights to a professional in the Risk Management Division of the BSA and he said, "we might have to ban those, too." Laser tag and paintball, unlike a squirtgun fight (usually) involve combat-like techniques. Teaching values is a BSA thing, teaching combat is not. DS

Eamonn: Nicely done. Thank you. Dave

SM406 provided excellent advice for the unit advancement cooridnator. Bob White gave excellent thought about the .7 cents per merit badge card. I don't think they cost 7 cents each to print, distribute, etc, althoguh that's probably the lion's share of it -- there's also a cost to process the records at the council office. DS

Sctmom: Most of the time in Scouting, we're able to make minor course corrections in the life of a boy or boys and in the homes of families. Sometimes were able to make major differences in the life of a boy or boys based on a few or a single event. Even less frequently, we can have no effect at all, but we try none-the-less. Good job in making a major difference in the life of one boy this one weekend. Hopefully he can be kept in the program -- I applaud your efforts and your unit's efforts -- and a major difference can be made. Little things make all the difference. Keep up your good work and God Bless you. Dave