dsteele

Twocubdad: Jeez -- I thought I was agreeing with you and it seems you're looking for an argument. Actually, nothing says the den has to graduate together, and it appears in the case you mentioned that they can't. No, don't roll the boys back to Webelos I -- just have them work toward the Arrow of Light until they either complete 5th grade (at the conclusion of the school year they attend 5th grade -- or about May/June of 2004 -- including the kid whose birthday is in September. Once they're done with the 5th grade, they can be Boy Scouts regardless of age. If they can finish the Arrow of Light, they can also become Boy Scouts regardless of age. Cub Scouts can (not must) become Boy Scouts once they have completed the fifth grade OR turn 11 years old OR earn the Arrow of Light. The joining requirements do not say, Done with the fifth grade AND completed the Arrow of Light AND turn 11 years old. They also don't say the den has to graduate at the same time. If, for some reason, a boy isn't elgible to join with the rest of his den, let him continue working on the Arrow of Light with his Webelos Leader or parent and wait until one of the three conditions applies. If I'm missing something, please let me know, but Cub Scouting is pretty flexible in these areas. DS

I agree entirely with Bob White. Anyone can go to the BSA National web site -- www.scouting.org and look under media center. Click on position statements or click on press releases. There you can find the official word on standards of membership. One link in particular, a press release relating to the Supreme Court decision also comments on the resolution passed by the national officers of the BSA (all volunteers) to uphold the membership standards of the Boy Scouts of America. At the bottom of the page is a link to the actual resolution. It doesn't sound to me like it's going to change in the forseable future. I don't think it should change, so I'm happy with the decision and find myself in full agreement. DS

Matua: The right way to find a district chairman is through the nominating committee process. However, you pointed out that the right way fell apart. So now it's time to try alternate methods. Actually, now that I've printed your post, I'm going to recommend that you follow the nominating committee method, but with a tiws. I think you and the DE are now a 2.75 person nominating committee. One person is your DE, the other is yourself. The .75 person is the Scout Executive/DE's supervisor/Executive Board of the Council. According to the position description of a District Commissioner, you could throw up your hands and let the matter rest in your DE's lap, but I suspect you're not built like that. It's not uncommon for long-time Scouters to feel that their District Chairman should have scouting experience, but I disagree. I think it's a nice bonus if they do, but they don't really need it. Your position will rely strongly on previous Scouting experience in many ways -- from helping to solve unit problems, wearing the uniform correctly, training unit commissioners and ADC's, etc. The District Chairman needs knowledge of the community, ability to recruit, understanding of membership as customers, running meetings, etc. As to the role of your Scout Center Office Manager -- most Office Managers in Scouting are hourly support staff. There are a few who are professionals, but very few. There are probably 5 and they are in major metropolitan councils. The Office Manager in your council may have a list, but I wouldn't use it if I were you. Not because the office manager offered it, but because I think the DE and yourself should put together your own list. Try this: Sit down with the DE and a blank piece of paper. Ask yourselves what you need from a district chairman. You obviously need recruiting skills (which do not necessarily require the chairman to know what a camping chairman does -- the DE can supply that) so the Chairman can fill the slots that are not currently occupied by volunteers. Does the disttrict need to raise more money? Then you need a chairman with deep pockets of his/her own and the ability to reach into others? Build your list of needs from a district chairman. Then prioritize those needs. Once the list of needs is built (this could be called a profile for the position,) then you and the DE need to "dream and scheme" who would best fit those needs. Don't say no for people. If the CEO of the biggest corporation of the council is a prospect, list them. Don't assume that you can't get to them or that they will say no out of hand. It may be the Commander of the closest military base. Let the mind run free. Then go on and grow the list to as many names as you find acceptable. Don't rule out women either. One of the best district chairs I ever served with was female. Once the new list is developed, prioritize your candidates based on ability to do the job (from your perspective.) Have the DE run the prioritized list past his/her supervisor and then prepare a plan to start at the top and work your way down. Find out who that person can not say no to -- if you can. Have that person with you on the recruiting call. Always tell the prospect, "We feel you're the best person for this important job. We need your help." If number one turns you down, you can certainly tell the same thing to number two. Because number one is no longer a prospect, you can tell them that in good conscience. Also, if you get turned down, ask the person you're trying to recruit for their recommendations and if you can use their name to get to their recommended person. If you can, try to get the person who turned you down to go with you on the call. Very often, they are the person the person you're trying to recruit can not say no to. Always have a one page position description with you and explain the needs of your district. Don't undersell the position of the requirements, but also don't bury them with manuals, etc. Have a folder with you with a job description, perhaps the District Chairman pamplet and a fact sheet that outlines the geography of the district, number of units, membership, finance, etc. Not much more than that. Good luck, Matua. Please print this post and share it with your DE. Let me know how it turns out. Dave

Interesting question, OGE! I have to admit that I have no opinion on this subject because I've not given it any thought. If you don't mind, (and since this is nearly one-way communication, I have no way of knowing without proceeding whether you mind or not,) I'd like to use the fact that I have no opinion due to lack of consideration to again caution my fellow posters that a lot of the youth who participate in these forums are being exposed to views and personalities they have not considered until they read what we say. The Scout Oath and Law, therefore, are important to remember. My point is that this thread will help me form an opinion about women registering for selective service. What we read becomes part of what we think, for good or for ill. I can say that I have no problem with women in combat -- as long as they're on my side. I wouldn't want to have one against me. I'm thinking of that "hell hath no fury" thing. My wife has two black belts and is working on a third. I don't like it when she's mad at me for several reasons. I shudder to think of her in combat against some poor soul. DS

Twocubdad covered everything I was going to cover as I was writing in my head while I was reading in my head. The only things I would add relate to the joining requirements for Boy Scouts: To join a troop a kid needs to: Be 11 years old or have completed the 5th grade or have earned the Arrow of Light. Meeting any one of the conditions above qualifies. It's also the parent's call whether their son should be in a Bear Den or a Webelos Den. Twocubdad -- you're not going nuts. For a while the joining age for Boy Scouts was 10 1/2, but it changed back to 11 a few years back. DS

I think Fat Old Guy's unit is probably like many in that they do not check references. In most cases, the person who is volunteering is known to the unit and the school, neighborhood, church, whatever. There is also now a criminal background check conducted on every new adult application -- so not checking references is probably a lot more safe than it once was. On the other side of the coin, I know a lot of Den Leaders for example are recruited at the school night, but not necessarily known to the pack leadership and/or the chartered partner. If no one knows the applicant, I think the committee is obligated to check the references. Just because a person has no criminal record, that does not mean you would want them to be a leader for your child. Make the calls and see what you find out. Then decide whether they should be registered members of your unit. Please note what Committee Chairs, Chartered Reps and/or Insititional Heads are sigining that they approve the leader and that the Council Representative is sigining only that they accept the leader. As I'm sure NJCubScouter can point out, there are legal differences in the terms. DS

I'm very proud to know you (in an online way) Dave, and welcome. The BSA has an excellent relationship with the military and I hope it continues. In fact, I'm working with a District Executive to help the JROTC form a Venture Crew. The JROTC officers and Sgt. Major are excited about the partnership and so are we. I don't think you'll find a BSA volunteer who is anti-warrior or anti-police. Some may be anti-war, but I am not. I think we can agree that, no matter how you cut it, war is not play. Hence the BSA does not endorse "playing" shooting at people with paint or laser or the BB guns my friends and I used to shoot at each other in High School (we didn't learn that in Scouts ) As to the other military comparisons you made in your post, you are correct, they do resemble the military. I think this points to the pride the BSA has in the United States military and those who are part of it. I think the respect is returned and that being a Boy Scout is excellent preparation for soldiers, sailors, Marines, and any other place in the world that requires men of integrity. When it comes time for a former Scout to learn to shoot at people, I want him to learn it from someone who has been trained in what it means to do so -- not from a game he played with his buddies when he was 11. I am not a veteran or a member of any branch of serivice (I had a Congressional Nomination to West Point, but didn't get in because of childhood epilepsy) and my only memories of shooting someone were during BB gun fights that were a lot of fun, but not safe from a safety or philosophical position. BB gun fights and laser tag and paintball won't get a kid a nomination to a military academy, being an Eagle Scout or even a former Scout goes a lot farther because of the values built in Scouting vs. competency in a game. DS

I have never seen the sheet Overtrained refers to and don't know of anything current for units to use. However, the following questions are the ones that are asked of references for professional Scouter applicants of non-work related references: How long have you known this individual? What is/was your relationship to the applicant? What are _name__________ outstanding strong points? What are any evident weak points? How would ______name______ be an asset to our youth development organization (pack?) Do you know any reason why this person should not work with children? If yes, please tell me why. I hope this helps. DS

The original question was asking us if we had experience with 11 year old patrol leaders leading patrols of 11 year olds. My dear wife reminded me that I have had such an experience. In 1994, I was the Scoutmaster of a troop that was barely hanging on -- as I've alluded to in previous threads. We managed to pick up 18 Webelos to join our existing troop of 4 active members. Only one of the original four could attend summer camp with us. We picked up the Webelos in May and 16 of them signed up for summer camp. So we headed off to summer camp -- myself as the Scoutmaster, my wife as a second adult (for part of the week) and one father as another leader. The boys had been together since tiger cubs and knew each other well. I named the oldest Scout as Senior Patrol Leader for the week and divided the remaining 16 boys into two patrols. We agreed that each boy would be patrol leader for one day and the leadership would rotate. We also agreed that each patrol leader of each day was fully accountable for the actions of his patrol as a whole. The boys didn't know it but I had been assistant camp director and program director for that camp in previous years. I knew the camps drill very well. On the morning of the first day the alarm would sound and we would have to send a runner to the dining facility to account for each member of our troop. I did tell them that the troop wouldn't be able to account for its members until every patrol leader knew where every member of his patrol was . . . We reported last. The boys had a tough time getting their act together. Oh well, it's about teaching the boys. So I took it when the program director of the camp -- who knew who I am -- decided to berate me publicly about the slowness of my troop to respond. Some of our military bretheren are possibly taking my use of a drill as a teaching tool to be counter to the purpose of a drill, but to me it was a teachable moment. It worked. So did the rotating leadership. I had one particular little trouble maker, let's call him Garnett. Garnett didn't seem to mind getting his patrol and patrol leader "in trouble" from the SPL -- until it was his day to be patrol leader. Then everything had to be "just so." The Spl taught him some valuable lessons that day. That same boy tried to revert to his former rascal position when he turned over the patrol leader patch and his patrol was very hard on him . . . When fall came around, the patrols held their own elections and chose, in my opinion, very wisely, based on their 1 day experience at summer camp. It was wonderful to behold . . . until the parents became overly involved several months after I stepped down as Scoutmaster a few months later, but that's a different story. DS

The answer to the question isn't as easy as it ought to be. Eamonn raises excellent points. A lot of the time, the call that goes to the DE should be addressed by a district volunteer. In that case, however, it should be pretty easy for the DE to either return the call (or email) and say, "here is who can answer your question," or call the volunteer and ask them to call the person who called the DE. I also agree with the poster who said you should call and ask for the DE's supervisor. If the DE is known to the supervisor as one who returns calls, he or she will let you know that. Sometimes, however, the DE is lousy with that kind of thing -- and is on the path to finding another line of work whether voluntary or involuntarily -- and the supervisor will need to know of the problem to be able to address it. I also agree that multiple types of communication should be tried and it's okay to have a conversation with the DE to find the preferred method. In my own particular case, email is my favorite. I can answer it any time and don't have to worry about waking someone up. When someone leaves a voice mail for a DE, it should be remembered that we're all human. If you've been a pain in the . . . and are known to be long-winded or rude, the DE probably will be in no hurry to call you back. Similarly, if you're not clear on what the issue is your message may get shoved to the bottom of the pile. I can also tell you that it is not uncommon for a DE to simply go out to lunch for an hour and come back and have 5-10 voice mails waiting for them, I want to see them about a report that's past due (often because they were side tracked a lot, but helping customers which is why we're here) and they may have two more meetings that afternoon that preclude them getting back to you today. However, they should have a follow-up system and should most certainly get back to you. DS

Even if I bought in on NJCubScouter's theory that society now finds homosexual behavior acceptible (which I don't,) it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me. I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe and we both have a right to believe it that I am willing to defend to the nth degree. I still kind of laugh when I recall this story, which I don't think I've told here. If I have, please skip it and accept my apologies. Last fall, under pressure from the United Way, our council was told we have to take "diversity training" from a specific board member of the United Way. We were also told that all agency professionals had to take this training, but they were going to put on the training for the 5 of us as a "pilot." By the 5 of us, I mean, The Scout Executive (male), myself as the Assistant Scout Executive (male), a District Executive (female,) Learning for Life Executive (female,) and another District Executive (male.) It was to be a two-hour training session. The Scout Executive didn't want to have us (or him) go through it, but I persuaded him because there were vague threats about us losing funding if we didn't, plus I don't think it ever really hurts people when they exchange points of view. So the trainer showed up. She explained that she's a lesbian who is concerned because she and her fellow caucasian life partner have adopted two african-american children and those children might be discriminated against because of their lesbian parents ... and might not ever know they're being discriminated against! The entire "diversity" training was about gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, and transgender acceptance. The two females were totally and thoroughly disgusted. They sat in stonly silence. The Scout Executive and I asked questions as politely as we could, but we struggled to understand and found we couldn't. The exchange between trainer and trainees was polite, even friendly at times, but it really wasn't going anywhere. When she finished, I said, so what action do you want us to take? What did you expect of this training? She said, "I want you to start changing the BSA." I laughed and said, "The five of us here in this room?" "Yes." I told her that it isn't going to happen because of us and that we were, as a group of 5, in agreement with the policy. The United Way later had another session for all United Way Agencies. Three people showed up. The only thing I'm actually angry about is the United Way calling it diversity training. When the trainer handed out the evaluations, the actual title on the evaluation was "Anti-homophobia Training." Homophobia is generally accepted as fearing homosexuality. I don't fear it, I just don't accept it.

Back in the day, when I was a Senior District Executive, we had district day camps. People tended to sign their kids up as individuals rather than packs, and we would put the kids into groups of 8-12 and they were reqquired to have two adults each day to walk them from station to station. If only one adult showed up, we were okay because the groups were always within eyesight from every station (which had at least two adults) by every staff member. It was a big field. One day, only one parent showed up with her group. The second adult simply didn't show up. The Camp Director decided to let this lady lead her son's group around for the day. The lady was a smoker and within the first hour we saw her smoking and walking along with her den. As a smoker myself, I was asked to be the one to tell her she couldn't do that. I did it as politely as possible and, although she first reacted by threatening to leave, I told her that I also smoke and would lead her to the designated area. We had a designated area behind the one building on the property and Cub Scouts were not allowed anywhere near the back of the building. I asked her to contact me through a staff member's radio any time she needed a cigarette and I would come cover her den for her while she went to the smoking area. It was, in my mind, a successful compromise. Keep smoking away from the boys. I have no problem with that. But I think there should be designated, out of sight areas, for the nasty habit. I am a smoker, but I am not a criminal. DS

I'm sorry to hear the father was upset and I hope he doesn't leave the program because it doesn't allow for tackling people. I don't have a problem with football other than I don't enjoy watching it. I'm just not a sports fan, but that has nothing to do with the rule. I did have to chuckle at his comment about BSA needing to catch up to what boys want to do. It made me think of the things I wanted to do when I was a Cub Scout age boy -- many of which were unsafe -- like jumping from the roof of a friend's garage using a sheet as a parachute. It didn't slow me down much. I did play sports at that age -- football and baseball. I wasn't very good at either one, but there were community leagues I could join. However, I never expected a Cub Scout badge for it. Now we have a Cub Scout award for flag football and I think it's a pretty good compromise. If the Cub Scout participates in regular football through his own desires and a community group, there's nothing wrong with that. He just won't earn a pin from the BSA for it. I took a few karate lessons as a Cub Scout age boy as well. It's a restricted activity by the BSA -- but since my involvement in karate had nothing to do at all with my membership in the Cub Scouts, it was my mother and father's decision and not the BSA's. Didn't get any badges for the karate either. DS

Laura: For a definitive answer to your specific question about counting family nights camping, please call your district advancement chairman. If I were your district advancement chairman, I would answer yes you can count them. I did have to chuckle at the line about 20 nights of camping taking a lot of time. Actually, 20 days and nights of camping takes 20 days and nights -- the only question is how far are the 20 spaced apart DS

When my wife and I got married and joined a church, the troop at the church had only 5 members and no Scoutmaster. I was the District Executive. The parents of the 5 Scouts called me and wanted to fold the troop. I asked the boys if they felt the troop should fold and they said no. So, I became Scoutmaster Steele. The ages of the boys were 12, 12, 14, 13, and 15. At any rate, the 15 year old was giving me all manner of trouble and I -- even though trained, etc. -- kept trying to make the kid fall in line. The 15 year old Eagle Scout was the Senior Patrol Leader. One Saturday morning while we were on a camp out, I heard the umistakeable blips of an electronic game of some sort in the trouble-maker's tent. I then had a revelation. Rather than do my usual of taking the device from the Scout and lecturing him (didn't work anyway,) I pulled the SPL to the side and we had a chat about the Scout's disruptive behavior. The SPL looked at me and smiled. He said, "I'll take care of it." The SPL and the Scout had a little chat. I couldn't hear them, and don't know or want to know what was said, but the kid didn't cause me any more problems. As to the question of how far away the adults should be from the patrols, I think 1/2 mile is too far and intermixed can be too close for the sanity of the adult who wants to get any sleep on Friday night. DS

One of these days I'm going to learn not to post until I've checked my reference. I sometimes remember incorrectly. The passage I was remembering is on page 20 of the Scoutmaster Handbook. However, it was referring to the seleciton of the Troop Guide. The Troop Guide is selected by the Senior Patrol Leader with the advice and consent of the Assistant Scoutmaster. Pages 44-46 of the Junior Leader Handbook give an example of a Troop Guide leading the New Scout Patrol through the process of electing one of their own as Patrol Leader. Which is quite a bit different than my quick scan on the way to find something else. I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused and will try harder to check my references before posting. DS

Hi Bob: I'll share it, but it will have to wait until I go into the office tomorrow. I don't have the books here. As I recall, the passage I was referencing came from the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook, but I'll check tomorrow. Dave

Thanks, Neil. It is from the 1812 Overture. DS

I think it's pretty clear that I don't always agree with NJCubScouter's point of view. What may not be clear (in other words, it may be clear to some of you) I admire the man very much. I admire anyone who expresses his/her opinion reasonably, without direct personal attacks, and can defend his/her view. Salut`e NJCubScouter. I am a smoker and I have a right to do it. I do not believe I have the right to smoke in front of children and take great pains not to do so. It doesn't always work. If I'm in the outdoors and you ask me to pull the stuff out of my pockets, you'll find that's where the cigarette butts go after I field strip them. I also agree with NJCubScouter that I think the wording was left vague because smoking is taken up by a large number of Scouters and is perceived differently in different parts of the country. Now we get to the semantics. I was an English Minor with 50 hours of English in College, so I'll try to address this. (Yes the phrasing is ambiguous in the G2SS) Some are reading "may not allow smoking . . ." in the following way: "MAY not allow smoking" Meaning "May" choose to dis "allow smoking" others are reading it as "may NOT allow smoking" Meaning "Ain't no way, no how, that adults can smoke in front of youth." Now, just to have a little fun , perhaps, NJCubScouter, smoking is a local option? As I hit submit, I realized that NJCubScouter may feel this post is attacking his point of view. It is not. I'm serious when I say I admire you, NJ. DS (This message has been edited by dsteele)

Although it is true that games of chance are not approved as fundraisers by units, that doesn't sound like that's what you're doing. If every kid wins a gift by playing a game, even though chance plays a large part in the game, and they aren't being charged to play more than the value of the prize they will receive, it isn't a game of chance. It is not gambling. It's okay to do. What's not okay to do is to charge people for something they may never receive do to luck. That's why raffles and lotteries are not allowed as unit fundraisers. That's the opinion of this professional scouter. It sounds like you're using a game to give prizes or presents to children. As to the pinewood derby -- while winning can be pretty random given the length of the track and the weight limit -- it is not a game of chance. The difference between gambling and competition is money. DS

Welcome to the forums! The official answer to your question can be found in the Guide to Safe Scouting. The BSA does not permit contact sports. Tackling in regular football puts it in the category of contact sports. Now please understand that when I go from memory there's a possibility that I am wrong. I don't have the Guide To Safe Scouting in front of me, but it is available under publications at the National BSA website -- www.scouting.org Have fun with your pack. DS

I'll echo that one, foto! I can't score a bowling game. Unless the machine does it for me, I'm toast! Just got back from a major tooth rebuild inside my own mouth. Novocaine is wearing off and pain is setting in. I know this is off topic, but very much on my mind at the moment. Think I'll go lie down. DS

Kirk: The badge came out pretty quickly following the war in Iraq. I'm sure there are bugs that are being worked out. It, as you pointed out, is a new award and can be earned at several different levels -- there are requirements for Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Unit adults, Council and district adults, etc. Earning Emergency Preparedness Merit badge, also as you point out, means they had to have first aid merit badge, so if they have the Emergency Preparedness Merit Badge they qualify. If they only have First Aide Merit Badge they also qualify. In both cases, they need to fulfill the rest of the requirements. Because you can earn a merit badge only once, Scouts who already have the merit badges would not have to re-take them, although they can certainly be asked to demonstrate knowledge in those areas. DS

Now that our virtual hands have shaken, here goes ... Serve the troop by living the Scout Oath and Law to the best of your ability and follow the Scouting program. Grow every Scout's leadership abilities. Keep yourself in the background until the Scoutmaster's Minute. 35 words. Less if you use the type setter's rule of 5 characters to a word. DS

When I was a young DE in late 1988 or early 1989, there was a significant revision of the Boy Scout Handbook and along with that, a new ideal troop structure was unrolled. The new troop structure would put all first year Boy Scouts in a patrol of their own with the goal of working on the rank requirements heading to first class. An assistant Scoutmaster would be assigned by the Scoutmaster to help the new scout patrol. An older youth would serve as troop guide and be an advisor to the new scout patrol. So today, as I was researching patrol outings, I came across something of an evolution of the above that is in the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook of recent publication. The first change that struck me is that the New Scout Patrol is held as an option. I think that's good. As this thread shows, it has been used to varying degrees of success in various troops in varoius councils. The second thing that struck me is the recommended selection of the patrol leader for the New Scout Patrol (if used.) I don't have the book in front of me so I won't use quotation marks, but please allow me to paraphrase. It said that the New Scout Patrol Patrol Leader is selected by the Senior Patrol Leader with the advice and consent of the Assistant Scoutmaster (for the New Scout Patrol.) This allows for the SPL with his experience and the advice of an adult to select whoever he feels is best to lead that patrol regardless of age. Just another hunk of wood on this particular fire . . . DS