dsteele

Greetings Mr. Neilup. I prefer to think of the X-generation not so much as the "what's in it for me" generation as the "What can I do" generation. If we have nothing to contribute to a cause, we're outta there. In either case, my hat is doffed to your generation to the things you have done. My point is that generation x for good or for ill, is poised to take over whether the boomers are ready or not. Dave

Hops: Yes, you do have to fill out applications. Both of you. The only question is whether you have to pay a fee or not. If you're both currently registered and it's a multiple registration -- meaning you're both going to be registered in the troop and in the crew at the same time -- you don't have to pay the fee in both places. If you are registered in the crew and want to maintain registration in the troop, you can elect to pay in both places. Even if you pay in only one place, the troop or the crew, as long as you reach first class before leaving the troop, you can earn your Eagle. DS

This is what I said, "I'm not a big fan of home schooling when there are other alternatives, but my opinion is that if the state respects it, we should too." Which is, in my opinion, much more close to supportive than negative. By other alternatives I mean school with other kids, I don't care if its charter school, private school, public school (in no particular order.) I happen to think that social interaction that happens in school with other people is as important as the classroom work. You don't get that with home schooling, which is why I'm not a big fan of it. However, just because I don't jump up and down cheering when I hear about a kid being home-schooled, that doesn't mean I'm against it. I was trying to help a kid get the best possible program suited for him. I was not slamming home school. I said that if the state accepts home schooling, then we should too. That was meant to be supportive. As to not being a fan of home-schooling, I'm not. That doesn't mean I'm against it, but I am a big fan of social interaction. As long as it happens I don't really care how. I prefer white bread to wheat. That doesn't mean I'll refuse a piece of wheat bread -- I have no problem with wheat bread, I just prefer white.

Why would I support home schooling only when there is no other option? Good question. I do admit that I occasionally make judgements based only on my own experience. I can see why a student could learn more quickly with one-on-one teaching by a caring, loving parent or other party in a home enviornment. I think that home-schooled kids receive all kinds of good "book-learning" stuff, but don't believe that "book-learning" is enough to prepare someone for life. A home schooled child doesn't have to worry about a bully taking away their lunch money, doesn't have to learn that society has time-tables, never gets sent to the principals office and often (NOT ALWAYS) doesn't learn to work and play well with others -- which I think is part of the reason home schoolers often want Scouting for their kids. Now, here's my experience with home-schooling, and I hope it will show you that I don't have much experience with it, and still consider it an option: 1) My brother was heavily involved with a woman who had been home schooled all the way through high school. She had a good mind, but there were holes in her education and social skills because she had very little interaction with people outside of her family and their very narrow religious views. She became pregnant and my mother asked her if she had seen a physician. She said she had. She had seen "Dr. Ohbgin." My mother said, "I've never heard of him. Where are his offices." The gal then described the office and my mother knew it well. This woman hadn't seen Dr. Ohbgin. She's been to an O.B.G.Y.N. 2) My best buddy, who is the program director for a council, decided to home school his two foster children. Actually his wife did the schooling, and that was because the kids had extreme difficulty in school, but were fine when they were home. They made sure the girls had social experience with Girl Scouting and later Venturing. I think that was a good case and one where, in my view, they had no other alternative. 3) I had a district volunteer who's job moved his family to Spain for 18 months. The mother, who was a certified teacher in the USA home-schooled their sons until they returned to the U.S. Part of my reasoning in my belief that home-schooling should be a later resort rather than a first resort (Please notice I didn't say last resort) is that human interaction is a very important component for living in the world in my opinion. If home schooling is supplemented with enough social-interaction, it is not necessarily bad, in fact, like I said, it can accelerate learning -- but I wouldn't hold it out as a first choice. That doesn't mean that I'm implying that if you home-school, you're doing your kid a dis-service. I am in no position to know what's best for your child in your circumstantances and believe that you are the best judge of your child's well-being and are doing the best to raise the child you want to become a man or woman you will admire. I believe that interacting with other people is of primary importance in our learning curve. If a child can be home-schooled and still have enough interaction to learn that skill, okay, but if not, something -- I don't know what -- has to be done. DS

FOG: I never thought you were faking merit badge cards. I will include a note to the Boy Scout division when I send in our Wood Badge close-out report. It might work. National seems to be going more and more toward electronic forms that can be printed locally or electronic information. It's a slow process, probably slower than either of us want, but it's coming. We'll see what happens. Dave

JimmyD, You can call the regional office, but I'm not sure what you're looking for. The region exists to support local councils and it's an office. What they will do is refer you to your local council. If you have a complaint, they will refer you to the local council and probably call the Scout Executive of the council to make him aware of your complaint. I think you'll be further ahead and save yourself a long-distance call to New York to call your Scout Executive and set up a meeting. I have no stake in the matter, so I'm not quibbling or trying to divert you, just trying to save you a phone call by explaining channels. DS

It's not just your DE forbidding units from soliciting funds from businesses. Units soliciting funds from businesses and giving nothing in return is a violation of BSA fund raising policies and, in many cases if not all, a violation of state laws if the unit does not have a license. The council has a license. Unit fundraisers can't just be hands-out donations -- a car wash is a service you pay for, people buy popcorn and receive popcorn, etc. The DE was probably the one who put the kabosh on soliciting businesses, but they were only doing their job -- which most are good at. What we tend not to be good at is explaining to volunteers the reasons behind the decisions. Your DE may not even know the reason -- they may have asked their supervisor, "Can Troop S do this?" the supervisor may have simply said, "No." My theory is that most folks feel better when they know why a thing exists, even if they don't agree with it. DS

Yeah -- don't fake merit badge cards! Just kidding. Sometimes the smart-alec in me just comes out. Sorry I can't help. DS

I sat through an extensive presentation at a Regional Training Event for professionals about Generation X. The presentation was given by the author of a prominent book about Generation X and, as an X-er myself, I paid attention to all aspects of the presentation. The Scout Executives and middle managers were all nodding with understanding at the frustrations the baby boomers had with the members of my generation. That presentation was held 13 years ago. At Tan-Tara resort in Missouri. Thirteen years have now gone by. Generation X is here and we are running things. The President of the United States is a baby boomer, as is the Chief Scout Executive, as is the Regional Director of each region. However, within the next 5-7 years, all of those guys are going to be retired. Within 5-7 years, my generation will be running the show. Some already are. The Scout Executive of Cleveland is a generation x-er. There are others, but I don't know them all. Time marches on. The baby boomers will probably be nervous that an X-er will take away their social security, etc. Relax, there's nothing you can do to stop the next generation from taking over eventually, so why not enjoy the ride. When this topic comes up, I try not to get offended and am successful most of the time. This is one such time. I do like to point out that the WWII generation was very nervous when the baby boomers took over. That's where we are now and have been since about the time of the presentation about us lazy, selfish, unmotivated Generation X-ers was made 13 years ago. I'll tell you what we should worry about (he whispered conspiratorially.) It's the Generation Y -- who were about 10 years old when I heard the Revelation in Missouri. The three DE's I was with slinging popcorn this morning are all members of Generation Y and I don't understand any of them. Their values are solid, but they're different than mine. In twenty eight years, when I retire, they're going to steer the ship. Lord, I hope they don't sink it. More importantly, I hope I don't sink it when I get my hands on the wheel. DS

Proud Eagle, excellent post. Don't worry about your rant. I was a Field Director for four years and Monday will mark the first day of my 16th year as a Scouting professional -- I've been ranted at a whole lot worse than yours. It's Saturday morning and I just got back from slinging show and sell popcorn with the DE's. We had a great time. Time to shower and rest up -- 95% of our sale is take order and we'll be loading that in three weeks. Enjoy your weekend! Dave

Please allow me to comment on Col. Mike Walton -- I love the guy. I have read several of his posts on USScouts.org and think he has a marvelous understanding of the Scouting program and a much greater understanding of the U.S. Military than I do. But I simply can not find a prohibition of camoflauge in BSA literature. I'll change my tune if one is pointed out to me, but until then, to me it does not exist. It's like anything I read on any "unofficial" forum dealing with the Boy Scouts of America -- Scouts-L, Scouter.com (my favorite), USScouts.org, etc. Until a document from the national office crosses my desk with the information, it's all speculation. Even my opinions, when voiced as opinions, which is why I humbly accept accolades with a grain of salt. If I see something officially that will clarify an opinion, I will quote it. Until then, you get my thoughts for better or worse. In the meantime, God Bless Mike Walton. Kudos to you sir. DS

Excellent posts all around. I agree that most districts are not perfect and that the BSA as a whole is volunteer run and volunteer dependant. It's easy to blame professional scouters when there are problems or holes, but that blame should come from professional to professional and volunteer to volunteer. I firmly believe that. With the exception of the Scout Executive. Scout Executives are employed by the executive board of the local council with the permission of the naitonal coucnil. IF there is a problem with the Scout Executive, you take it to the council president (a volunteer.) If there is a problem with another member of the professional staff, you take it to the Scout Executive. He/She is the employer of the staff. On most levels, it is up to the volunteers to make Scouting work and I encourage you to contact the volunteer closest to your unit position for guidance and support. If you can't reach a council counterpart or district counterpart for your position, call the distriact or council chairman equivalent for your position. Help is there. I can sympathize with the Assistant Scoutmaster who wants to be recognized and welcomed by the council to his/her new position, but I do ask that you please realize a couple of things: 1) if you expect the recognition to come from a District Executive -- there is an average (on the low side) of 50 packs, troops and crews nationally per District Executive. That would require the DE to just visit 1 unit per week all year (they get 10 days vacation) to see every unit. Change ASM's at the wrong time and you're missed. It just isn't feasible. If they mean a welcome by a district/ council person -- it's possible, but 50 units is a lot. It ain't easy. 2) As much as we (professionals) want to be welcommed, we're not always wanted. This does hurt us, both personnaly and professionally. 3) We don't always know who you are or that you're new. 4) If we don't come see you that means there hasn't been a problem with your application and all is well. Having said all that, I love the way Overtrained's Council (ownership explicitly implied) handles new leaders and will strive to see that the council I'm currently involved with tries to fall into line with his. DS

Hello, TX! Welcome to the forums. I'll find out how many troops/packs/crews are chartered by home school associations if you'll send me a private message reminding me on Monday of next week. I won't be able to tell you where they are, but only how many. You can private message me by clicking on the green bar to the left of my post that says "send private message." Others may be able to help you in your quest to find them in local councils. I for one have been trying to start them for several years with some success. I would guess that there are hundreds or more. DS

NJ wrote: "I further gleaned (without interrogating the guy) that the boy has "completed the fifth grade" basically because his parents have decided that he has. Apparently this is permissible under the law of our state." It sounds to me like the boy you're referring to does meet the joining requirements of the BSA. If he were 10 1/2 years old, but had the Arrow of Light he could cross over immediately, etc. Unless the rules have changed significantly, there is nothing in writing in a national publication that dictates when Webelos cross over (other than the requirements to join a troop) or whether it has to be done by den or by individual. The joining requirements are based on individual -- age, grade completion, or badge of rank. I'm not a big fan of home schooling when there are other alternatives, but my opinion is that if the state respects it, we should too. As to age requirements in joining a particular Scouting program, they are clearly spelled out on the inside front cover of each program's application. As to the legal applications of grade for home schooled kids, NJ is far more qualified to attest than I am. DS

I don't make the rules, I just sign tour permits. Laser tag and paint ball are restricted activities. I have attempted to explain what I believe is the rationale of the committee that does make the rules. I happen to think laser tag is cool. I also happen to think that paintball would be fun to try some day. However, as long as they're on the list of unauthorized and restricted activities, I can not endorse them as unit activities under the auspicices of the Boy Scouts of America. You may all continue your debate . . . DS

I really don't know where the alleged prohibition on camo comes from. I found the reference to military looks, but nothing more than that. I do know that either you're in uniform or you are not, but if you're out of uniform, I don't know why camo can't be worn on a Scouting outing. Good thing I don't have to know everything, isn't it? We'd all be in big trouble if I did. DS

Ka6BSA: I have no trouble believing what you say about Indian Guides and the stuff about OA and regalia although I don't have direct knowledge of it. The MOS that red feather and Tamegonit refer to is Mic-O-Say, an organization supported by several councils that involves youth and adults, but does not share a relationship with the National Office like the Order of the Arrow has. I'm not a member of Mic-O-Say, but I admire those I've met who are. It seems they do a lot of good things for Scouting. Tehy are not ignoring or violating OA rules because those rules simply do not apply to them. DS PS -- MOS guys, feel free to tell us about Mic-O-Say.

I missed this thread initially. The answer to the question originally asked is 1988. I'll never forget it. I was a new DE and was going with my boss to my first district committee meeting. The district at the time was old guard, had been without a DE for 8 months -- after the other one quit before he could be fired -- and were a snarly bunch. The BSA had just made two-deep mandatory (it had been suggested for years) and come up with a new application for adults that asked the questions you see now -- with a few changes. I wasn't nervous, though, because my boss who had been a professional for 8 years, was going to be with me and, man, I figured he was invincible. My boss introduced me at the beginning of the meeting, squeezed my forearm, wished me luck and went out the door. Those guys and gals bent, folded, mutilated and stapled me over the new policies. I'm still around, though. Come to think of it, my boss at the time violated Young DE Protection Policies -- he ran when he should have taken the lead Oh well. DS

Both replies this thread has received so far are right. There is little in the "Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America" and "Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America" that is of interest or application to unit operation. What little there is can be found in the Insignia Guide and the Guide to Safe Scouting. The rest of the stuff is very, very dry and deals with corporate rules and policies for the national organization. Confusion comes up occasionally when someone sees a reference to "Rules and Regulations" and thinks there must be a be-all-end-all publication out there that says what you can and can not do and how you're supposed to do it. I can see how a volunteer, believing that the Rules and Regulations would cover every grey area in Scouting and must be highly important gets angry when he or she goes to the DE and asks to see them. The DE, who has probably never seen them asks his supervisor, who also may have never had need to refer to the documents and can't find a copy. Eventually, after numerous attempts to find this document, the volunteer gets very frustrated and thinks he/she is being stonewalled. The truth is that nobody needs to use these documents very often because the things that directly effect them are found in other, easily available documents. In 15 years of professional Scouting, I have read the documents twice looking to the answer to an obscure question -- and one of those two times was to answer a thread in these forums, for which I am volunteering my time. However, the question was asked "Does anyone know how to find and/or get the National Rules and Policies of the BSA?" The answer to the question as asked is -- yes, I do. But I suppose you're looking for the answer to your real question -- how you can see and or get them. You have to go through your local council office -- probably the Scout Executive. Your Scout Executive may have a copy in his desk, but probably not. Our council's copy is somewhere in my house, but I'm not sure where. The council can request copies on your behalf from the national office for a charge of $1.50 each. The reason they have to be requested through and by the local council is that the council is in a much better position to know whether they're dealing with a BSA person or someone who wants to bring harm to the BSA and thinks a copy of these documents will help them do it. You can then read them and fall asleep at your leisure. DS DS

I think I have a few ideas for Scribes and Historians. I really like Bob's thoughts on the role of the scribe in advancement and frankj's ideas as well. If the troop has a web page, the Scribe could work with an adult advisor and be the one to maintain the site and keep it current. The historian can research the troop's history and help the scribe to publish it on the web site or write it up for distribution to the troop. I think about the Troop Historian from a future, rather than a past point of view. Imagine this -- the year is 20XX and the troop is preparing a major reunion of all past members to celebrate 75 years of existence. What if the scribe of the troop way back when had kept details of all members of the troop while he was scribe, who was on what campout, and that stuff were preserved electronically and could be easily retrieved. What if the historian of the troop had written narratives of all the troop's outings and courts of honor and other highlight events that were also stored electronically (with pictures) and could be used as a highlight of the reunion. Just some thoughts. I keep a journal from time to time and jot normal every-day thoughts, but also capture how I felt at key moments. The journal isn't for me and certainly not for my glory. But it's one of those leather volumes with the special paper that lasts 100+ years. In 100 years if some historian wants to know what an average american wrote about on September 11, 2001 . . . it will be in my journal waiting for him/her to read it. DS

Usually that kind of stuff is in the merit badge pamphlet. I haven't looked at one in years, but it's probably there. If you've already looked there and didn't find enough information, there's usually a bibliography at the end of the pamphlet and you can check some of the resources listed. DS

If I were the CO or COR, I would want to check the references before I signed my approval. I can understand, however, it being delegated to the committee to do. DS

Yes, I did say you were looking for an argument, but what I meant was "let me clarify." No, I haven't been hanging out with FOG. The last forum member I hung out with was CubsRgr8. Whassup Cubs? DS

Generation X starts with people who were born in mid-1965. I was born at the end of 1965, so I'm a member of Generation X. There are some differences between Generation X-ers and Baby Boomers. One major one that I have noticed is that in spite of the "What's in it for me?" label that is applied with a very broad brush to my generation, we really are not motivated by money. Hold out a bonus at work to a Baby Boomer and odds are it will motivate him/her. Do the same for a Generation X-er and it won't do much. When it comes to my own involvement in volunteer activities (which in my case means outside of Scouting) I tend to be very task oriented. I once agreed to be on the Board of Christian Education for my church, but quit going because the meetings didn't do anything -- praying and eating cookies one Tuesday each month and having a title was, IMHO, a complete waste of my time. My Kiwanis Club does a pancake fundraiser one day a year (last year we served 8,849 people) and I get behind that effort big time -- it's task oriented. I'm the inter-club chairman for my club, which is also very task oriented. The title doesn't excite me, but the task does. I've found the same kind of trend in Scouting. One year as a District Director, I had no Family FOS chairman -- but I had 20 people "helping to raise the goal." Task oriented. Get in, get it done, get out. DS

To answer Bob's question -- I'll have to look for my last Boy's Life to address the question from Texas -- yes. National did issue a CD for Cub Scout recruitment last fall and this fall. Unfortunately, they charge 55 cents each and a lot of councils don't have the money to buy one for every potential youth. My council was fortunate enough to get 5,000 as a pilot exercise. If you're interested in one, I can see if we have one left and send it to you. Send me a private message and I'll let you know. DS